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Strange Topsheet Damage

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mjamja View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06/23/2016 at 12:19pm
I have been playing with a Big Dipper 38deg Black rubber for about a month.  Been using it about 2-3 days/week (rotate it with my 2nd racket to keep them similar wear).  Last night I noticed a little difference in reflection on a small section near the edge.  It looked very similar to what I have seen in the past when the entire rubber (top and sponge) gets slightly loosened from touching the table on a push.  In that case I can normally just get it back to normal by pressing down hard with my hand on the rubber while the paddle is on the table.

So I tried the pressing down thing a couple of times during the session, but it did not fix the problem.  I then gently tried to lift the whole rubber with my finger tip to see how much was loose to decide if I needed to remove the whole thing and re-glue.  I was completely surprised by what I found.  The sponge, the pips, and about 2/3 of the solid part of the topsheet stayed in place, but a very thin layer of rubber was loose.  For reference, it was about the same thickness of the original protector plastic that came on the rubber.  Never saw this before .  Anyone else experienced this?

Originally I thought the solid portion of the topsheet had separated from the pips portion.  But when I looked closer, it was more like the solid part had spit into two layers.  There was a thread a while back about the tacky layer peeling off and causing loss of the tackiness.  General reply was that there could not be a separate tacky layer on the rubber.  I now wonder if he was seeing the same delamination (if that is even the right term) I am having.

Just what I need right before Nationals is strange rubber failure problems.

Mark


Edited by mjamja - 06/23/2016 at 12:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2016 at 12:29pm
I have never experienced that or seen that happen on anyone's rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2016 at 2:23pm
btw mark, what your'e referring to as the "solid part" is typically referred to as the "base sheet."  sounds like it must have been poured in two layers?

I've always suspected that some manufacturers brushed on a tacky layer after the rubber cools.  You can see the brushmarks in the tack, for example with tai chi.  Heck I had one guy upset because he thought I had brushed glue all over his tai chi.

But I'd never really thought of topsheets being poured in layers.


Edited by cole_ely - 06/23/2016 at 2:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2016 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

...General reply was that there could not be a separate tacky layer on the rubber.  I now wonder if he was seeing the same delamination (if that is even the right term) I am having.
Lo and behold.  Compound Gum Technology - the secret behind tacky rubber for 44 years.


Nothing beats seeing it in the flesh.

Whale 2 VS Whale 3

Still not a believer?

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Edited by zeio - 06/23/2016 at 4:12pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2016 at 9:14pm
Fascinating, thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/24/2016 at 8:25am
hello mjamja

Can you upload a picture of the rubber in question? I think i have a similar problem with my DHS skyline 3-60
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wayla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/24/2016 at 9:17am
I think i had the same problem with my big digger 38 degrees version

playing for 2 weeks i noticed that i already got a bubble on the topsheet.
it was deemed unusable so i decided to peel it off and i think mine is the same situation that the tacky topsheet is the extra layer.

here's what it looks like.
is the same as yours?






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/24/2016 at 9:41am
The price we pay for saving money by using chinese rubber...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/24/2016 at 11:52am
Sorry, but I can not get a picture since I tried to glue mine back down since it was only a tiny bit at the edge. 

Wayla -  The part where you have the black shiny peeled away from the duller black is pretty much what mine looked like.  It was a very small section near the edge and I did not have any area where the blue sponge was visible.   I hope mine does not start coming completely apart like that at Nationals.

Mark




Edited by mjamja - 06/24/2016 at 11:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2019 at 10:28pm
    It is some distressing news to hear ...   



For the truth sake, the rubber's topsheets with Double Layer structure is a pioneer production technology as developed by Tamasu Butterfly© back in 1961.   Those multi-layer rubbers have been formally prohibited by ITTF ever since 1999.
In this too, laboratories affiliated with ITTF still looking for some apparatus suitable to decompose topsheet for closer examination.
I will report all those rubber samples as described here. It is some bitter regret to hear that some Chinese mnfcs have got over limits too far, ITTF got indignant.    
Thanks to everyone for sharing information and illustrations of the offending products.    Honesty is the best policy, indeed.

Edited by igorponger - 09/08/2019 at 10:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 3:32am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

I have been playing with a Big Dipper 38deg Black rubber for about a month.  Been using it about 2-3 days/week (rotate it with my 2nd racket to keep them similar wear).  Last night I noticed a little difference in reflection on a small section near the edge.  It looked very similar to what I have seen in the past when the entire rubber (top and sponge) gets slightly loosened from touching the table on a push.  In that case I can normally just get it back to normal by pressing down hard with my hand on the rubber while the paddle is on the table.

So I tried the pressing down thing a couple of times during the session, but it did not fix the problem.  I then gently tried to lift the whole rubber with my finger tip to see how much was loose to decide if I needed to remove the whole thing and re-glue.  I was completely surprised by what I found.  The sponge, the pips, and about 2/3 of the solid part of the topsheet stayed in place, but a very thin layer of rubber was loose.  For reference, it was about the same thickness of the original protector plastic that came on the rubber.  Never saw this before .  Anyone else experienced this?

Originally I thought the solid portion of the topsheet had separated from the pips portion.  But when I looked closer, it was more like the solid part had spit into two layers.  There was a thread a while back about the tacky layer peeling off and causing loss of the tackiness.  General reply was that there could not be a separate tacky layer on the rubber.  I now wonder if he was seeing the same delamination (if that is even the right term) I am having.

Just what I need right before Nationals is strange rubber failure problems.

Mark

Did you boosted it by Falco booster?
If so, that is the answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 4:16am
no booster used.  Had couple of sheets since original problem and no repeat of the issue.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 10:39am
The heat could make it happen like that.
If you have put the rubbers on your car or left them on the metal shed in the hot sunny day.
I used to bought 2 rubbers, I left them on my car for 30ms driving but on the sunny side. When I picked them up, I feel hot (~60) and I have tried to lift the topsheet off, it came off easily!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 4:03pm
UNMASK THE CGL RUBBERs

Composite Glue Layer (CGL) is a secret technology, and it is now growing very popular with many and many table tennis manufactures worldwide. Since it is an illegal black art, being always prohibited by ITTF, no manufacturer would dare to promulgate it for public's ears, to save one's life.
    
HOW DO I PROCEED.
You need some surgical skills to detach the outer tacky skin (finest rubber skin of upto 0.1 millimeters) from the pimpled layer underneath.



HEREBY, WE'D ASK YOU FOR SOME GOOD SERVICE, as follows:
     -- Collect up all the rubber cuttings from your waste-basket and give them some thorough V-section, one after one.   Be careful if using surgical knife for making dissections onto the rubbers.
     -- Report us all the rubbers you did found to use the composite topsheet CGL.   Be sure to attach a photo of the topsheet specimens .

Thank you a lot, in advance.

The most preferred rubbers to survey
■   DHS Hurricane 3 / DHS Hurricane 2
■   Yinhe BIG DIPPER
■   Sanwei TARGET
■   Friendship 729-08
■   Haifu WHALE 2 / 3

Edited by igorponger - 09/10/2019 at 8:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lasta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 9:41pm
Igor,

No need for mass surveys. Go to www.guoqiuhui.net for cross sections of most rubbers.

If it indeed is banned, a lot of manufacturers are ignoring it completely.

It is the same for just about EVERY tacky rubber.

Another guess is this is not an extra layer, but the result of surface treatment to make those rubbers tacky.


Edited by lasta - 09/10/2019 at 9:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 10:59pm
for sure h3 has this technic.
The h3 doesn't have extra thin layer on its topsheet is ...the h3 is selling worldwide
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 11:17am
Is H3 Neo Exclusive version a fraud ?

http://www.guoqiuhui.net/Home/Goods/goods/value/%25E7%25B2%2598%25E6%2580%25A7/par/228/p/1

Yes, all those rubbers are known to have enormous tacky potency and they all would give the distinctive "clammy" feeling to your fingertips.
Actually, the same tacky effect on the rubber topsheet can be achived in two different production methods.
   1. introducing chemical additives (liquid nitroso compounds) into the raw rubber mixture.
   2. rolling a thin rubberized film of silicone material over base layer of non-cellular rubber.

Method (1) is legit in everyway and is welcome to employ by manufacturers.
Method (2) is in direct contravention to the Rules 2.4.3.1, and the rubbers to use the such are deemed to be an illegal product with no excuse.    

It is our job to disclose all those fraudulent rubber brands of China that employ illegal composite tackiness.

We are now reported from some local informants that the China National Team players are now being supplied in plenty with Hurricane3 Neo rubbers (exclusive version) illegal topsheet tackiness. How could we get some H3 exclusives for our closer examinations ??

Thanks.

Hurricane3 Neo enormous tackiness/


Edited by igorponger - 09/17/2019 at 12:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 1:58pm
 

Igor is always complaining about the chinese like an old lady. What can know an umpire about chemical technology?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

HEREBY, WE'D ASK YOU FOR SOME GOOD SERVICE, as follows:
     -- Collect up all the rubber cuttings from your waste-basket and give them some thorough V-section, one after one.   Be careful if using surgical knife for making dissections onto the rubbers.
     -- Report us all the rubbers you did found to use the composite topsheet CGL.   Be sure to attach a photo of the topsheet specimens .

For who's benefit would we be doing this? I certainly don't think it's in the interest of players.

Let say for example, we send in a sample, and the ITTF investigates, and decides it should never have been approved in the first case (i.e. THEY made a mistake). So they ban the rubber from the LARC, the result being:
1. Any players that's currently using it, and may have several spare sheets, is forced to buy new sheets until they find something new that's suitable - results: a lot of wasted money and time for the player.
2. Retailers get stuck with stock they can't sell, because it's no longer approved - result: wasted money and time for the retailer

So who wins igorponger? It's not as if these rubbers give you some type of magical advantage.

Edited by haggisv - 10 hours 27 minutes ago at 6:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darucla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 hours 39 minutes ago at 8:46am
@Igor; Is that the royal "we"?

Edited by darucla - 20 hours 38 minutes ago at 8:47am
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