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    Posted: 07/27/2017 at 2:15pm
I finally got this posted.  Sorry for the delay for those who were waiting.

2017 US Nationals Hardbat Singles Final


Jay Turberville
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/14/2017 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Bin Hai Chu, presumably in his sixties or very late fifties,
He turned 65 on April 11. He was born in 1952, the year Satoh won with sponge and Reisman won Consolation. 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 07/14/2017 at 10:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/14/2017 at 4:00pm
Bin Hai Chu, presumably in his sixties or very late fifties, was the 2014 and 2015 National Hardbat Singles champion.  He was also the 2012 and 2015 North American Hardbat Singles champion.

The only player who won a National Championship in an Open event that I can think of who was older than Bin Hai Chu was Marty Reisman, who at age 67 won the National Hardbat Singles championship.

In 1952 Reisman won the World Consolation Singles Championship. Can you guess who was the World Singles Champion that year? A hint: he did not use a hardbat.

Age does make a difference, though in hardbat/hardbat play skill and experience are still important.  In 2009 the 73 year old Wayne Obertone was the Bin Hai Chu of the ill-fated Bud Light hardbat competition, losing to a young Englishman Jack Baker roughly fifty years his junior in the finals.


Edited by berndt_mann - 07/14/2017 at 4:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/14/2017 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

The finalist in the Hardbat Open Singles event was Bin Hai Chu, a classic style penholder somewhere in his sixties.  Having seen him personally at the 2015 Nationals, I can attest that he is a very dangerous hardbat player.

I guess I mis-remembered.  Bin won the Mens 65+, so he must still be younger than 70.

Sharon, OTOH, came in second in the Juniors.  We have an age difference here of around fifty years.  I'd think you'd want to factor in all significant aspects of players when making these kinds of comparisons.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2017 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Odd, still no results posted for the Hardbat Men's Singles.

It looks like any event that started on Saturday or was to conclude on Saturday doesn't have results posted.

Results are now posted.

2017 hardbat champion is... Sharon Alguetti.

The fact that a high level sponge player who devotes little to no time practicing hardbat won (for the second time I believe), is a pretty strong statement against those who preach that it is a more difficult or more technical game. 

That's a pretty incomplete analysis.  The match was quite close with the fifth game (21 point games) decided in deuce. The second place player was, I think, over 70 years old.  Sharon is a very fit and athletic young man by comparison. IMO, he makes up for what he lacks in hardbat touch and experience with his athleticism and very high level movement. Many skills in modern table tennis translate quite well to hardbat. The best hardbat player in the U.S., Jimmy Butler, is also an excellent sponge player having won the U.S. Nationals Mens Singles Championship when past the age of 40.

I don't recall  many players claiming that hardbat is more technical.  In fact, I think most argue the opposite, that modern inverted sponge play is too technical and therefore hard for spectators to understand and appreciate.  I think the hardbat argument tends to be that hardbat promotes an all-round game that is easier for the average person to understand.


Jay is, as usual, just about spot on.  The finalist in the Hardbat Open Singles event was Bin Hai Chu, a classic style penholder somewhere in his sixties.  Having seen him personally at the 2015 Nationals, I can attest that he is a very dangerous hardbat player.

And Jimmy Butler, who defeated the ageless Reisman in a money match at the 1998 U.S. Open, plays a really mean hardbat.  Though his technique is unlike Johnny Leach's was, he puts me in mind of Leach as he can attack and defend and has some brutal serves (definitely more brutal than were Leach's) to go with his deadly backhand.

As for modern inverted sponge play, ask your typical American non-tt player or recroom king how today's game is played, and if he or she knows about it at all, chances are they'll say that the Chinese play at breakneck speed far from the table using lots of "English".  And then they'll switch channels and order another Bud Light.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2017 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Odd, still no results posted for the Hardbat Men's Singles.

It looks like any event that started on Saturday or was to conclude on Saturday doesn't have results posted.

Results are now posted.

2017 hardbat champion is... Sharon Alguetti.

The fact that a high level sponge player who devotes little to no time practicing hardbat won (for the second time I believe), is a pretty strong statement against those who preach that it is a more difficult or more technical game. 

That's a pretty incomplete analysis.  The match was quite close with the fifth game (21 point games) decided in deuce. The second place player was, I think, over 70 years old.  Sharon is a very fit and athletic young man by comparison. IMO, he makes up for what he lacks in hardbat touch and experience with his athleticism and very high level movement. Many skills in modern table tennis translate quite well to hardbat. The best hardbat player in the U.S., Jimmy Butler, is also an excellent sponge player having won the U.S. Nationals Mens Singles Championship when past the age of 40.

I don't recall  many players claiming that hardbat is more technical.  In fact, I think most argue the opposite, that modern inverted sponge play is too technical and therefore hard for spectators to understand and appreciate.  I think the hardbat argument tends to be that hardbat promotes an all-round game that is easier for the average person to understand.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2017 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback everyone!!! I do appreciate it. I watched on Tennis Chanel and live - and agree that the live lighting, which was actually very good, did not translate as well as we anticipated, on camera. As with so many things we do - we will improve for the US Open and events beyond.


Gordon, could you tell us -- what is exactly the reason for that strange lighting? is there any actual benefit that players, spectators and TV/Internet audience are getting from this? how is it better than the usual good lighting etc. ?

I am sure there is some explanation... it's just we (people who weren't there) don't know what it is.

Thank you!

These things are not only a matter of lighting, but also a matter of  camera adjustments.  Note how much flatter the lighting looked on the net camera?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2017 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,
I watched the women's and men's final live streaming.  My experience was that the production quality was lower than last year.  Several times the stream broke up badly.  In addition, it seemed they didn't spec out the lighting requirements for live streaming; at times there were many shadows, almost like a horror movie with darkness and mysterious bodies moving about.  Some angles of view were not consistently lit.

I hope someone can watch the Tennis Channel this afternoon (3-5pm eastern) and report what it all looks like on TV. It seems the production was completely geared toward that broadcast rather than the livestream. In any case, there were many awkward moments which suggested confusion and bad planning (by the producers, not USATT) - Prachi Jha being cut off and generally disoriented, the commentators talking over the women's winner interview, etc. Maybe they've fixed some of this in the editing for TV.

Too bad indeed the matches weren't closer. Lily got very lucky with nets and edges (about 10-1 over the whole match), and Nikhil unfortunately couldn't win game 2.

Nothing appeared to have been fixed for TV broadcast. The filming and camera shot calling for the actual competition was pretty good. Prachi is currently not skilled enough to pull off what they asked of her.  Unfortunately, her commentary came off mostly as unpolished and not very professional.  Doing commentary like that is, I think, harder than it looks.  You need experience and practice.  

Sean and his partner announcer did much better though his partner really botched the intro to the Men's Final.  I was shocked that nobody fixed that prior to broadcast on Tennis Channel.  

The USATT "commercials", and instructional videos ranged from being very unprofessional (low audio on one channel only!! Background noise/hum that could have been removed or reduced in post.  Horrible color correction that resulted in yellow skin tones) to somewhat unprofessional.  None of it was particularly well produced.  That said, some of the TT tennis promo spots delivered good messaging IMO.

Kudos to USATT for getting on the Tennis Channel and having the actual competition look pretty good.  Nice camera angles.  Nice slo-mo replay.  Decent commentating.  But they did themselves no favors with much of the the other stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2017 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Originally posted by in2spin in2spin wrote:

Mr. Turberville, a national champion, yet again.

:)

Heartiest congratulations to Jay Turberville, a national champion (what event?) and hardbat legend for our own time.

I see on the USATT Nationals results page that you and Johnstone won the Men's Hardbat Doubles, and that you finished second to Larry Hodges in O-40 Hardbat Singles.  Not bad, Fountain Hills' most eminent table tennis player ever, not bad.



Thanks.  Had a nice win to get to face Larry, (beat my doubles parnter), but was outplayed in the Final.  Maybe next time ...
Congrats Jay. How did the other MyTT members do results wise?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2017 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Originally posted by in2spin in2spin wrote:

Mr. Turberville, a national champion, yet again.

:)

Heartiest congratulations to Jay Turberville, a national champion (what event?) and hardbat legend for our own time.

I see on the USATT Nationals results page that you and Johnstone won the Men's Hardbat Doubles, and that you finished second to Larry Hodges in O-40 Hardbat Singles.  Not bad, Fountain Hills' most eminent table tennis player ever, not bad.

Thanks.  Had a nice win to get to face Larry, (beat my doubles partner), but was outplayed in the Final.  Maybe next time ...



Edited by wturber - 07/13/2017 at 2:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2017 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by in2spin in2spin wrote:

Mr. Turberville, a national champion, yet again.

:)

Thanks.  We've come in second to Dan and Patty twice before.  Nice to finally get the win.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2017 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Also - no US Hardbat championship this year? WTH?
If you are referring to a video of the Finals match, I hope to have that posted in a few days.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2017 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

Donn - we will be posting a special congratulations article this week.

As
Tomother questions you guys have - I will get back to you tomorrow!!!

Nice article. I would've made the title "Kanak, Kanak - Who's there? - The last 2 National champions"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2017 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Odd, still no results posted for the Hardbat Men's Singles.

It looks like any event that started on Saturday or was to conclude on Saturday doesn't have results posted.


Results are now posted.

2017 hardbat champion is... Sharon Alguetti.
Not all the event results are posted. The Adult team event results are not posted
All the results are posted for the U.S. Nationals now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2017 at 7:44am
Thanks Gordy...............
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2017 at 2:41am
Donn - we will be posting a special congratulations article this week.

As
Tomother questions you guys have - I will get back to you tomorrow!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/11/2017 at 6:55pm
Has the USATT listed, in a simple format, the players selected at the Nationals for the various national teams?  I looked around some and didn't find a synopsis.   

Thanks
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Originally posted by PingPongPom PingPongPom wrote:

I can tell you now that Gordon spent time with all of the players during their warmups on the final court to ensure that the lighting was in adequate condition for the players.

The lighting levels were above standard and the players were all satisfied that the lighting was of a good level. I wasn't able to watch the Tennis Channel replay as yet or the stream apart from some spots, will take a look tomorrow.


From a spectator perspective there were lots of shadows on the playing court. I think it is because the light was coming from directly overhead only, so when a player crouched over to return serve their face vanished in the shadows. Having the spectators dark is probably fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingPongPom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2017 at 11:00pm
I can tell you now that Gordon spent time with all of the players during their warmups on the final court to ensure that the lighting was in adequate condition for the players.

The lighting levels were above standard and the players were all satisfied that the lighting was of a good level. I wasn't able to watch the Tennis Channel replay as yet or the stream apart from some spots, will take a look tomorrow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2017 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback everyone!!! I do appreciate it. I watched on Tennis Chanel and live - and agree that the live lighting, which was actually very good, did not translate as well as we anticipated, on camera. As with so many things we do - we will improve for the US Open and events beyond.


Gordon, could you tell us -- what is exactly the reason for that strange lighting? is there any actual benefit that players, spectators and TV/Internet audience are getting from this? how is it better than the usual good lighting etc. ?

I am sure there is some explanation... it's just we (people who weren't there) don't know what it is.

Thank you!


Not speaking for Gordy, but here is why the LA Lakers do this.

A few years ago the Lakers decided to dim the lights on the spectators, so the basketball court was well lit, but the spectators were not.

They liked the results, so they kept doing it. They felt that the game was more of a spectacle centered on the players because your eyes naturally go to the brightest objects. Keep focus on the stars of the show. I expect this the same reason World Championship of Ping Pong does the same.

BTW, I appreciate and encourage Gordy and crew to continue trying new things. Some work, some don't. Gotta try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2017 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Odd, still no results posted for the Hardbat Men's Singles.

It looks like any event that started on Saturday or was to conclude on Saturday doesn't have results posted.

Results are now posted.

2017 hardbat champion is... Sharon Alguetti.

The fact that a high level sponge player who devotes little to no time practicing hardbat won (for the second time I believe), is a pretty strong statement against those who preach that it is a more difficult or more technical game. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2017 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback everyone!!! I do appreciate it. I watched on Tennis Chanel and live - and agree that the live lighting, which was actually very good, did not translate as well as we anticipated, on camera. As with so many things we do - we will improve for the US Open and events beyond.


Gordon, could you tell us -- what is exactly the reason for that strange lighting? is there any actual benefit that players, spectators and TV/Internet audience are getting from this? how is it better than the usual good lighting etc. ?

I am sure there is some explanation... it's just we (people who weren't there) don't know what it is.

Thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2017 at 2:08am
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Odd, still no results posted for the Hardbat Men's Singles.

It looks like any event that started on Saturday or was to conclude on Saturday doesn't have results posted.


Results are now posted.

2017 hardbat champion is... Sharon Alguetti.
Not all the event results are posted. The Adult team event results are not posted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2017 at 12:01am
Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Odd, still no results posted for the Hardbat Men's Singles.

It looks like any event that started on Saturday or was to conclude on Saturday doesn't have results posted.

Results are now posted.

2017 hardbat champion is... Sharon Alguetti.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2017 at 12:24pm
Thanks for the feedback everyone!!! I do appreciate it. I watched on Tennis Chanel and live - and agree that the live lighting, which was actually very good, did not translate as well as we anticipated, on camera. As with so many things we do - we will improve for the US Open and events beyond.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2017 at 11:57am
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Odd, still no results posted for the Hardbat Men's Singles.


It looks like any event that started on Saturday or was to conclude on Saturday doesn't have results posted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2017 at 10:15am
Odd, still no results posted for the Hardbat Men's Singles.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,
I watched the women's and men's final live streaming.  My experience was that the production quality was lower than last year.  Several times the stream broke up badly.  In addition, it seemed they didn't spec out the lighting requirements for live streaming; at times there were many shadows, almost like a horror movie with darkness and mysterious bodies moving about.  Some angles of view were not consistently lit.


I hope someone can watch the Tennis Channel this afternoon (3-5pm eastern) and report what it all looks like on TV. It seems the production was completely geared toward that broadcast rather than the livestream. In any case, there were many awkward moments which suggested confusion and bad planning (by the producers, not USATT) - Prachi Jha being cut off and generally disoriented, the commentators talking over the women's winner interview, etc. Maybe they've fixed some of this in the editing for TV.

Too bad indeed the matches weren't closer. Lily got very lucky with nets and edges (about 10-1 over the whole match), and Nikhil unfortunately couldn't win game 2.


It looks just as crappy on TV as it did on the live stream last night.

The lighting is terrible for video. The players faces are very dark. This is not the way to promote tt.

If I was a sponsor, I would be very annoyed that my sponsorship logos are not very visible. I would tell Gordy that the lighting is not acceptable and future sponsorship requires changes.

If you want to light the playing area and keep the audience dark, it can be done. They need to talk to the people who put on the World Championship of Ping Pong sandpaper event and find out how they set up their lighting and cameras.

USATT may not have the $$$ to do it this way. If not, they should ditch the light/dark idea completely.


I agree with everything stated above. It looked awful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Also - no US Hardbat championship this year? WTH?

There is a hardbat men's singles event listed, with players. But  i don't see any results.

Happening today.


Totally missed that. Watched the finals last night, in my mind finals=end of tournament.


Last night was just warm-up, all the important events are today. Wink

The hardbat final should be happening right now on table 1. Unfortunately there's no stream for table 1 today.

Michael Tran and Rachel Sung won the cadet finals over Nikhil Kumar and Amy Wang. The current level in cadets, both boys and girls, is really impressive. (And Rachel is still a mini-cadet!)


Edited by amateur - 07/08/2017 at 7:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 5:33pm
I agree, the lighting was poor.  It could be they were trying to create a nightclub atmosphere, which I think would be a mistake. 

Overall I thought the tournament ran well. 


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