Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  Help Desk Help Desk  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Maintenance of knees, wrists, ankles etc.
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Maintenance of knees, wrists, ankles etc.

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Lightzy View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/18/2017
Location: T-A
Status: Offline
Points: 345
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Maintenance of knees, wrists, ankles etc.
    Posted: 09/27/2017 at 3:37pm
I understand that the pros train 6 hours a day.
This must be very taxing to certain body parts which are used extensively in pingpong.

So how do they rest these parts effectively?
I'm not talking about stretches etc, I'm talking about... for example if a pro's knee is acting up, what do they do to help it recover the quickest?

Having decided to start training a few hours daily, I'm hoping for an answer from an experienced coach, but any answer would do.
Thanks :)


Edited by Lightzy - 09/27/2017 at 3:38pm
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Rich L View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 02/18/2010
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 96
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2017 at 3:49pm
The question is not how to treat injuries, it's how to prevent them.  My son is a fitness trainer, and spends a lot of time with athletes with a focus on two things:  creating strength and flexibility in parts of of the body that will endure stress, and working on motion itself, making sure it's efficient, and doesn't cause undue stress.  I don't know anything about your body or how you play, but you may want to ask a trainer about this.  It's worth a consultation.
Xiom Haybusa Zxi
FH: Xiom Omega IV Elite
BH: Xiom Omega VI Europe
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2017 at 5:09pm
They are young.  If they get hurt they ice and rest.  Because they are young and their joints are more elastic, they can work more intensely. However, even pros can get hurt.

So the best advice I can give you is listen to your body.  Warm up slowly by playing slowly and not doing anything very abrupt until you are sweating.  If you are hurting, don't play.  If something you do repetitively starts to produce pain, and that pain seems to get more intense over a period of days, stop doing that thing for awhile. (Elbow, wrist, or shoulder pain in particular).

There are two kinds of athletic injuries.  There are rare accidents where you do something weird and unusual, you get hurt, and you recover, and it is pretty unlikely you would do that thing again. (maybe your slip and fall or your foot gets caught in a cap in the gerflor or something like that.  Ankle sprains, some knee injuries, stuff like that, even some but not all back injuries.

Then there is the more degenerative kind of process that comes from doing the same thing over and over again, and those are really bad because it takes a long time to reverse the degeneration that occurs, if it happens at all.  Those happen a lot in TT so take care. 

Also some of this depends on your current level of fitness, age, etc.


Back to Top
Lightzy View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/18/2017
Location: T-A
Status: Offline
Points: 345
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2017 at 5:42pm
Hey thank you very much but I'm not asking about injuries in particular.

I'm asking how to effectively rest these parts of the body. Unrelated to pain, whether or not there is even pain at all.
Just after a day's training, how to relax all those parts of the body and help them recuperate after an intense workout in preparation for the next workout, in the most ideal manner. The way actual athletes do.

What, soaking a bit in a hot water bath?
Massages?
Or is nothing in particular done, other than to make sure that all movement is fluent and efficient and so to minimize stress?

Thanks :)


Edited by Lightzy - 09/27/2017 at 5:43pm
Back to Top
JassyKel View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 10/20/2021
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JassyKel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2021 at 1:21pm
Have you found a good answer?
Back to Top
liliansh View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 11/08/2021
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liliansh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2021 at 1:23pm
Hey! I am glad that you are starting to practice this sport and I wish you much success. I had the same questions at the beginning. I practiced dancing before that, and I was left with some immense leg pain, and I was afraid it would worsen. Well, because you are a beginner to prevent any damage, it would be good to wear knee supports and ankle braces during training. Or that these pieces of equipment that I bought from remaininthegame.ca helped me, but with me, everything is fine, and the pain did not worsen. But the best thing would be to talk to the coach anyway. I hope I have helped you.

Edited by liliansh - 11/09/2021 at 4:35am
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2021 at 2:11pm
The best way to know when and how much rest is hard to say for TT.  It is  much easier in an endurance sport, such as running or cycling, where you can look at when you are over-trained by things like heart rate variability, inability to increase your heart rate during an certain effort, etc.  These things can be measured very quantitatively.

In this case you are mainly asking how to rest a joint or a muscle that is prone to an overuse injury.  The answer in effect, though, is the same.  If the training load you are subjected yourself to is not hurting you (pain in joints) then you probably don't need to do much of anything.  Pain in joints is different from pain in muscles, so make sure you can tell the difference.  This is very very important!  Pain in muscles means you worked them.  It should go away after at most a 72 hour rest.  If it persists and seems to be coming from a tendon or a joint, this is a different matter!  Be especially mindful of knees, Achilles, wrist or elbow!  Those pains are joint pains and you can't really train a joint, you can only tear it down.  

Know let's assume you have muscle pain after a TT training session.  Here id something that helps me with muscle pains induced by sports training (TT or road cycling):


Hot baths feel great too but I don't think they really prevent anything and their effects are very short lasting.

I'm a big fan of Voltaren gel.

Sleep is very very important!  Uf you don't sleep well you won't recover well from your workout.  To monitor this, get a smart watch.

And, now looking at the thread I just realized that I replied to a thread that is about four years old from a person who hasn't been here for awhile.  Oh well.  Maybe what I wrote will be useful to someone.




Edited by Baal - 11/08/2021 at 2:12pm
Back to Top
Tinykin View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/30/2003
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 2294
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2021 at 6:52pm
Very useful as always, Baal.


Edited by Tinykin - 11/08/2021 at 6:53pm
>65yo, presently overweight rather than obese.
Darker Speed 90 (x3) with various rubber combinations.
(Present favourite)- Darker 5p-2A, 5ply Hinoki blade with T05H/T05H

Delusion is an asset
Back to Top
Basquests View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 08/29/2016
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 460
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2021 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

The best way to know when and how much rest is hard to say for TT.  It is  much easier in an endurance sport, such as running or cycling, where you can look at when you are over-trained by things like heart rate variability, inability to increase your heart rate during an certain effort, etc.  These things can be measured very quantitatively.

In this case you are mainly asking how to rest a joint or a muscle that is prone to an overuse injury.  The answer in effect, though, is the same.  If the training load you are subjected yourself to is not hurting you (pain in joints) then you probably don't need to do much of anything.  Pain in joints is different from pain in muscles, so make sure you can tell the difference.  This is very very important!  Pain in muscles means you worked them.  It should go away after at most a 72 hour rest.  If it persists and seems to be coming from a tendon or a joint, this is a different matter!  Be especially mindful of knees, Achilles, wrist or elbow!  Those pains are joint pains and you can't really train a joint, you can only tear it down.  

Know let's assume you have muscle pain after a TT training session.  Here id something that helps me with muscle pains induced by sports training (TT or road cycling):


Hot baths feel great too but I don't think they really prevent anything and their effects are very short lasting.

I'm a big fan of Voltaren gel.

Sleep is very very important!  Uf you don't sleep well you won't recover well from your workout.  To monitor this, get a smart watch.

And, now looking at the thread I just realized that I replied to a thread that is about four years old from a person who hasn't been here for awhile.  Oh well.  Maybe what I wrote will be useful to someone.



We want more insight.

I partially tore my ligament in my foot in Jan, and finally after an MRI, months of rest, moon boot, rehab have returned to playing in a graduated return the past 2 months. Orthoics, well cushioned socks,  best shoes etc are my current gameplan to ensuring minimal risk in perpetuity.

Also concerning is seeing how many people have tennis elbow. Regular rests during a session, not playing for more than 2 hour sessions, mixing up what strokes you practice (esp not looping for too long) good technique to minimize force/pressure at joints etc.

Any feedback on any of that, as well as more? Voltaren is something I'd look into 


Edited by Basquests - 11/08/2021 at 9:36pm
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4593
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2021 at 2:57am
One thing a physio told me is to always ramp up (and down) in terms of exercise loads. The best recipe for injury is not playing for a few weeks then suddenly racking 10-20 hrs a week, and jumping from 0 intensity to 100% intensity. 

The other thing is not doing strength and flexibility training - those who don't spend time at the gym are much more likely to get injured.


Edited by blahness - 11/09/2021 at 2:58am
-------
Butterfly Viscaria

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Dignics 05
Back to Top
Basquests View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 08/29/2016
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 460
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2021 at 5:31am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing a physio told me is to always ramp up (and down) in terms of exercise loads. The best recipe for injury is not playing for a few weeks then suddenly racking 10-20 hrs a week, and jumping from 0 intensity to 100% intensity. 

The other thing is not doing strength and flexibility training - those who don't spend time at the gym are much more likely to get injured.

Yeah, I keep the load pretty light. I went from running during the pandemic, to 3 sessions a week of TT or badminton (total), to 4 after a month, to 4.5 a week for 2 more months, then got injured. Ie. Took 3 or 4 months to go from 6 to about 10 hours, and still got injured.

Obviously need to strengthen my body, but ligaments and tendons take a long time to become more resilient, compared to muscles and cardio, which is why we get injured like that. You feel good, increase the load, but the weaker / slower to strengthen parts of the body aren't ready yet, if my research is correct.

The sessions were about 2 hours, so it'll be a long time before i feel comfortable even doing 10 hours a week again.

During my robot sessions with Auckland in lockdown, my samsung watch 4 is saying I'm burning about 550cal per hour, as its all high intensity multiball which gets the heartrate up. Even 4* 75 minute sessions a week, with no other exercise leaves me physically quite tired.
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4593
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2021 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing a physio told me is to always ramp up (and down) in terms of exercise loads. The best recipe for injury is not playing for a few weeks then suddenly racking 10-20 hrs a week, and jumping from 0 intensity to 100% intensity. 

The other thing is not doing strength and flexibility training - those who don't spend time at the gym are much more likely to get injured.

Yeah, I keep the load pretty light. I went from running during the pandemic, to 3 sessions a week of TT or badminton (total), to 4 after a month, to 4.5 a week for 2 more months, then got injured. Ie. Took 3 or 4 months to go from 6 to about 10 hours, and still got injured.

Obviously need to strengthen my body, but ligaments and tendons take a long time to become more resilient, compared to muscles and cardio, which is why we get injured like that. You feel good, increase the load, but the weaker / slower to strengthen parts of the body aren't ready yet, if my research is correct.

The sessions were about 2 hours, so it'll be a long time before i feel comfortable even doing 10 hours a week again.

During my robot sessions with Auckland in lockdown, my samsung watch 4 is saying I'm burning about 550cal per hour, as its all high intensity multiball which gets the heartrate up. Even 4* 75 minute sessions a week, with no other exercise leaves me physically quite tired.

Actually I too accidentally injured my wrist doing chinups during the lockdowns (was dumb coz I was curling my wrist up rather than having it straight) Cry
So I'm also on the rehab + Voltaren + glucosamine+NEM+vit supplements these days ugh... 
I still play a bit of TT but I had to modify my technique a lot, especially on the serve where I went back to full grip serves as they felt a lot better - it's a combination of Samsonov style pendulum serves and tomahawk / hook serves as they felt much more comfortable. Also had to figure out a way to do chiquitas without much wrist (it is actually possible hahah and possibly even more stable, albeit with worse spin and kick). I lost a lot of spin and explosiveness in my loops too and will have to learn how to compensate for that using a larger smoother stroke like Wang Liqin's. The other thing I'm focusing much more now is to get into position for every single ball, because hitting in bad positions can be quite bad too. 

-------
Butterfly Viscaria

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Dignics 05
Back to Top
Basquests View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 08/29/2016
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 460
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2021 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Actually I too accidentally injured my wrist doing chinups during the lockdowns (was dumb coz I was curling my wrist up rather than having it straight) Cry
So I'm also on the rehab + Voltaren + glucosamine+NEM+vit supplements these days ugh... 
I still play a bit of TT but I had to modify my technique a lot, especially on the serve where I went back to full grip serves as they felt a lot better - it's a combination of Samsonov style pendulum serves and tomahawk / hook serves as they felt much more comfortable. Also had to figure out a way to do chiquitas without much wrist (it is actually possible hahah and possibly even more stable, albeit with worse spin and kick). I lost a lot of spin and explosiveness in my loops too and will have to learn how to compensate for that using a larger smoother stroke like Wang Liqin's. The other thing I'm focusing much more now is to get into position for every single ball, because hitting in bad positions can be quite bad too. 


Hopefully your rehab goes well and you aren't without your more explosive chiquitas/loops for too long.

I couldn't dream of doing a chinup, or at least not for a few years. Hyperflexible joints means a lack of power, but more RoM. Heck, transported a sofa about 500m with my dad, whose old, unfit and washed, and my joints are still a little achey 60~ hours later.

Have my first hit with a human, since March [apart from 2* 10~ minute hits]. He's a NT member who I haven't seen for a few years, so hopefully my robot training the last 2 months makes it respectable!
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4593
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2021 at 5:46am
Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Actually I too accidentally injured my wrist doing chinups during the lockdowns (was dumb coz I was curling my wrist up rather than having it straight) Cry
So I'm also on the rehab + Voltaren + glucosamine+NEM+vit supplements these days ugh... 
I still play a bit of TT but I had to modify my technique a lot, especially on the serve where I went back to full grip serves as they felt a lot better - it's a combination of Samsonov style pendulum serves and tomahawk / hook serves as they felt much more comfortable. Also had to figure out a way to do chiquitas without much wrist (it is actually possible hahah and possibly even more stable, albeit with worse spin and kick). I lost a lot of spin and explosiveness in my loops too and will have to learn how to compensate for that using a larger smoother stroke like Wang Liqin's. The other thing I'm focusing much more now is to get into position for every single ball, because hitting in bad positions can be quite bad too. 


Hopefully your rehab goes well and you aren't without your more explosive chiquitas/loops for too long.

I couldn't dream of doing a chinup, or at least not for a few years. Hyperflexible joints means a lack of power, but more RoM. Heck, transported a sofa about 500m with my dad, whose old, unfit and washed, and my joints are still a little achey 60~ hours later.

Have my first hit with a human, since March [apart from 2* 10~ minute hits]. He's a NT member who I haven't seen for a few years, so hopefully my robot training the last 2 months makes it respectable!

Wow you would have a very nice SP stroke system on the FH now... 

Yeah chinups + pull-ups were my fav exercises coz the gyms are closed during Covid.

I actually completely reconfigured how I do the BH and FH loops to use almost no wrist now (it's now basically pure forearm pronation/supination), and actually they're even more powerful than before now, but not so spinny Cry (that's what my practice partner told me). It actually feels even more stable without much wrist. I can still get good spin, just lost the extra oomph in spin that often induces errors from the blockers. I figured out that I could eke out more spin if I finish my arm followthrough even higher and use even more of the leg strength and hip rotation to power the ball (to compensate for the loss of wrist movement). Tho it's really tiring tho to use full body action across like a 2-3 hr sesh, my legs were like jelly at the end lol. 

But I'm happy that I managed to play at a similar level to where I was before the injury, had some matches with someone who usually destroys me (one of the annoying inverted/long pip penholders Cry) and got like 2 out of 4 sets so that was good. He's so good at the clutch stages of the game, all of the 4 sets I lost went to at least 9-9 or 10-10 and he always manages to come up with such good serve + receive combinations and tactics to dominate those last 2 points and get the set. 
-------
Butterfly Viscaria

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Dignics 05
Back to Top
Basquests View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 08/29/2016
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 460
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2021 at 8:19am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Wow you would have a very nice SP stroke system on the FH now... 

Yeah chinups + pull-ups were my fav exercises coz the gyms are closed during Covid.

I actually completely reconfigured how I do the BH and FH loops to use almost no wrist now (it's now basically pure forearm pronation/supination), and actually they're even more powerful than before now, but not so spinny Cry (that's what my practice partner told me). It actually feels even more stable without much wrist. I can still get good spin, just lost the extra oomph in spin that often induces errors from the blockers. I figured out that I could eke out more spin if I finish my arm followthrough even higher and use even more of the leg strength and hip rotation to power the ball (to compensate for the loss of wrist movement). Tho it's really tiring tho to use full body action across like a 2-3 hr sesh, my legs were like jelly at the end lol. 

But I'm happy that I managed to play at a similar level to where I was before the injury, had some matches with someone who usually destroys me (one of the annoying inverted/long pip penholders Cry) and got like 2 out of 4 sets so that was good. He's so good at the clutch stages of the game, all of the 4 sets I lost went to at least 9-9 or 10-10 and he always manages to come up with such good serve + receive combinations and tactics to dominate those last 2 points and get the set. 

I made a lengthy reply to this post, but the internet was out so I lost it.

RIP.


Edited by Basquests - 11/14/2021 at 8:19am
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4593
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2021 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:


I made a lengthy reply to this post, but the internet was out so I lost it.

RIP.

RIP to the post indeed!
-------
Butterfly Viscaria

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Dignics 05
Back to Top
bozbrisvegas View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/27/2008
Location: Behind you
Status: Offline
Points: 3440
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2021 at 8:40pm
LightZY,

Rest (take the weight off), compression/immobilize (make sure it isn't getting more strain or movement), massage muscles is obvious, ice packs help swelling, elevate the particular areas that get strained.

I wonder what those cold baths would be like that the UFC fighters do to cut weight.  It would surely take away any thought of pains being so cold!






Edited by bozbrisvegas - 11/14/2021 at 8:42pm
Michael Maze Straight handle + Hurricane 3-50
table tennis video
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2021 at 10:01pm
In terms of the topic of the thread, you can "maintain" muscles, but tendons are a different matter.  With tendons the only thing you can do is to stop whatever you're doing that's tearing them down.

More details:        One thing to keep in mind is that tendons and muscles behave very differently when they are damaged. Muscles are readily able to repair themselves. In fact damaging muscles is actually how we strengthen them, as long as we allow some time for the recovery from the effort the muscles will repair themselves stronger than they were before. Tendons behave very differently. They can repair themselves but it takes a lot longer. They're not really designed to be damaged or worn. The cells and tendons are referred to as tenocytes. When those cells are chronically stressed they actually  lose their properties, and then the surrounding tissue will become inflammed. The inflammation is what causes the pain, but the real threat is if the tendons degenerate.  Because then you are risking a tear, or in some cases a complete degradation of the joint. That is why it is very important to recognize where the pain is coming from, which sometimes is not as easy as it sounds. 

You really have to take joint pain seriously, whereas muscle soreness after an effort is actually a good thing, as long as you give yourself enough time to recover before you do it again (which only takes hours or a day or two). Actually a big part of the science of athletic training is getting that timing right, and it depends a bit on what muscles you're using in the type of sport you play.  With tendons?  Maybe weeks.  In terms of medical stuff this is not my main area of expertise, far from it, but I have had some of these issues in my sports life and so I have actually done a lot of reading as to the pathophysiology of tendons and muscles.

By the way, ice and anti-inflammatories can make some of the pain go away, but it doesn't do anything to help a degenerating tendon. The only thing that can really solve that problem is time off.


Edited by Baal - 11/15/2021 at 7:00am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.127 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2020 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.