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Dignics 05 & Harimoto Innerforce ALC

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    Posted: 03/11/2019 at 12:58am
If Dignics gives me something close to Hurricane 8 spin with T05 ease of use it'll be hard to say no. Otherwise, it'll be easy to say no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NDH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 12:50pm
People said the same about Tenergy when it launched. 

People will buy it, and good for them if it makes them happy. 

I mean, if they only do it once per year, or even twice per year, it’s the extra cost of a meal out or a take away - It’s not that bad. 

Personally, I don’t see how it can be much better than Tenergy - But if I try it and it is, I’ll keep using it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 11:42am
IDIOTS ....

No one feels like to spoil the 100 back Rubber, nobody would dare boosting on the 100 back Rubber. Nobody, but some idiots ... maybe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 10:08am
Hi,

More valuable observations.

Some thoughts on these two:

As for the price, I think if people are putting it on one side, they'll probably put it on both.
My comment here on the "one-side" usage was not based on a sense of price, but of performance.  Broadly speaking, it may be frequently found that Dignics 05 is too fast for the serious player's backhand.  Maybe, maybe not, however I'm speculating that the great Tenergy 05 is about as fast and powerful as the large percentage of competitive players can manage effectively.

If anything, I think it will help Tenergy sales as the price all of a sudden feels better value - Most people should be self aware enough to realise that they won't see much difference between the two rubber at the level they play, and the price difference really isn't justified.

This is a very interesting thought.  It will be interesting to watch.

Thanks,
Donn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NDH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 9:55am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Originally posted by NDH NDH wrote:

This is just my opinion, but I'd imagine Timo (and other pro's), have been using a much harder sponged T05 for many years (compared with what us mere mortals could order in the shops).

I've been using T05 Hard since it came out (on the forehand), and it offers things that I feel would suit the pros game, over regular T05.

With Dignics and now T09c, I'd imagine they are all very very similar, but Butterfly need the exposure of players using them so they can justify the cost.

A pro player would find it pretty easy to switch between them all, as I imagine the playing characteristics for them will be so incredibly similar.

Yes, good points, however it is also the case that top athletes are always looking for "an edge," something to give them the slight advantage in their performance.  This must be the case, as the equipment volatility at the top of the game seems quite high, with many examples that may be cited.

Furthermore, in reading the descriptions of players' experiences with different equipment, it is clear the typical serious player also makes distinctions that the player deems noteworthy and of value.

On the matter of the sales popularity of Dignics 05, I'm anticipating blockbuster success.  Butterfly has never failed to lead the world (outside of China) in the area of high performing, professional-class equipment, in the quality and capability of the equipment and the price and the sales.  I do not find the arguments against its commercial success convincing.  It seems the cost will be 20% to 25% more than the Tenergy line.  For the Tenergy people, in most cases this will not be prohibitive.  For those who have revolted from Butterfly Tenergy due to price will simply remain revolted.

Another possible element of Dignics 05 promotion may be its wide usage on just one side of the racket.  This means that one pays a premium on only one sheet per set, which feels better.

Another interesting matter is the effect, if any, of Dignics 05 to the overall rubber pricing in the Japanese/European lines.  Will there be an upward movement of price in the non-Tenergy competitive rubbers?  Given the great success of Dignics, it will not be lost on the other manufacturers the attractive profitability that Butterfly is realizing.  In addition, the high Dignics 05 price creates a larger price differential that would permit a rise in prices while still remaining appealing in price.

Thanks,    

I guess my point was that all of the pro's are probably already using rubbers that are incredibly similar to these new rubbers, and have been for some time now.

Dignics might add a bit of speed and spin (although, the jury is still out), but it's highly possible that Timo Boll and others have had access to this technology for years (but it was still branded as Tenergy 05).

I obviously don't know for definite, but that's just my feeling.

As for the price, I think if people are putting it on one side, they'll probably put it on both.

If anything, I think it will help Tenergy sales as the price all of a sudden feels better value - Most people should be self aware enough to realise that they won't see much difference between the two rubber at the level they play, and the price difference really isn't justified.

Of course, if I was rich enough, I'd buy Dignics and try it out, and then if I liked it, I'd keep using it - I'd expect other people who don't need to worry about money to do the same.

I also think the "amateur" reviews of Dignics will be very positive - Especially from those who plan to use it as their rubber (the psychological effect of justifying the cost of the rubber will be the main driving force here) - Again, we'll have to wait and see.

But as far as global sales - Butterfly have always been market leading, it just depends if the TT community respond to this recent price increase.

I fear it may be more like an "Apple" situation, where the units of iPhones are decreasing now, in part, due to the high price of the new phones.

I think Tenergy will still be the best seller, with Dignics taking some time before it even gets close.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 9:46am
Originally posted by NDH NDH wrote:

This is just my opinion, but I'd imagine Timo (and other pro's), have been using a much harder sponged T05 for many years (compared with what us mere mortals could order in the shops).

I've been using T05 Hard since it came out (on the forehand), and it offers things that I feel would suit the pros game, over regular T05.

With Dignics and now T09c, I'd imagine they are all very very similar, but Butterfly need the exposure of players using them so they can justify the cost.

A pro player would find it pretty easy to switch between them all, as I imagine the playing characteristics for them will be so incredibly similar.

Yes, good points, however it is also the case that top athletes are always looking for "an edge," something to give them the slight advantage in their performance.  This must be the case, as the equipment volatility at the top of the game seems quite high, with many examples that may be cited.

Furthermore, in reading the descriptions of players' experiences with different equipment, it is clear the typical serious player also makes distinctions that the player deems noteworthy and of value.

On the matter of the sales popularity of Dignics 05, I'm anticipating blockbuster success.  Butterfly has never failed to lead the world (outside of China) in the area of high performing, professional-class equipment, in the quality and capability of the equipment and the price and the sales.  I do not find the arguments against its commercial success convincing.  It seems the cost will be 20% to 25% more than the Tenergy line.  For the Tenergy people, in most cases this will not be prohibitive.  For those who have revolted from Butterfly Tenergy due to price will simply remain revolted.

Another possible element of Dignics 05 promotion may be its wide usage on just one side of the racket.  This means that one pays a premium on only one sheet per set, which feels better.

Another interesting matter is the effect, if any, of Dignics 05 to the overall rubber pricing in the Japanese/European lines.  Will there be an upward movement of price in the non-Tenergy competitive rubbers?  Given the great success of Dignics, it will not be lost on the other manufacturers the attractive profitability that Butterfly is realizing.  In addition, the high Dignics 05 price creates a larger price differential that would permit a rise in prices while still remaining appealing in price.

Thanks,    
Donn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NDH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 7:59am
This is just my opinion, but I'd imagine Timo (and other pro's), have been using a much harder sponged T05 for many years (compared with what us mere mortals could order in the shops).

I've been using T05 Hard since it came out (on the forehand), and it offers things that I feel would suit the pros game, over regular T05.

With Dignics and now T09c, I'd imagine they are all very very similar, but Butterfly need the exposure of players using them so they can justify the cost.

A pro player would find it pretty easy to switch between them all, as I imagine the playing characteristics for them will be so incredibly similar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 7:34am
Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

Dignics:

speed: 13.5
Spin. :   12.0
Hard :   40

Tenergy 05H

speed 13.0
spin.   11.5
Hard. 43

Tenergy 05

speed. 13.0
Spin. : 11.5
Hard : 36

Tenergy 80

speed: 13.25
Spin:    11.25
Hard:   36

HI,

This display is a curiosity.  Here is what the commercial says about Tenergy 05 Hard:

Butterfly Tenergy 05 Hard has adopted a stiffer sponge to add further power to the original Tenergy 05 rubber.

While it still maintains the incredible ‘Spring Sponge’ feel, the hard sponge responds to a stronger impact enabling more power.

"Further power, more power," yet the speed and spin of 05 and 05 Hard are rated equivalent, so from where does the increase in power abide, according to the manufacturer?  The attributes specified for the rubbers are inherent attributes, not attributes that vary by direct usage.

On a second note, it was reported that Timo Boll had switched to Tenergy 05 Hard, and had been using it for some time.  Just recently it was discovered that he is using Tenergy 09c.  I'm wondering if Butterfly requested Timo to use 05 Hard to promote its sales, not because he favored it.  Dignics has more speed and more spin.  Apparently, 09c is preferred by Timo over 05 Hard. My speculation is that Tenergy 05 Hard will not have a prominent place among the professional class. 

As an additional thought to the rubber selection process, the professional class does not pay for its own equipment, thus price is not a factor.

Another speculation is that Tenergy 05 may be the rubber with the strongest presence on the backhands of the offensive-based Butterfly professionals, with Dignics 05 and Tenergy 09c dominant on the forehand.

Lastly, with the great assistance from our intrepid EJers, we will be able to derive an excellent snapshot of the current state of the professional class rubber usage via the available observations at the World's.  The World's will help us much in our understandings here, at this precise point in history.

Thanks,
Donn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2019 at 11:06am
Originally posted by Mickael Mickael wrote:

dignics won't sell like 05. when 05 appeared we were boosting and keeping bryce speed in a plastic bag for the booster won't wear off. now with dignics the best they can do is variation of target pro nittaku g1 omega 7 rasanter which are already superb for 1/4 of the price. butterfly needs again a rule change to sell again like 2007 tenergy time.

Agree a new meeting with weikert to fit the butterfly roadmap inside ittf laws
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mickael Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2019 at 6:06am
dignics won't sell like 05. when 05 appeared we were boosting and keeping bryce speed in a plastic bag for the booster won't wear off. now with dignics the best they can do is variation of target pro nittaku g1 omega 7 rasanter which are already superb for 1/4 of the price. butterfly needs again a rule change to sell again like 2007 tenergy time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 3:56pm
The issue is what effect the rubber series has on the TT game given the larger plastic ball.   The hill to climb is that there are many different new plastic ball versions so which one if any does it impact? Otherwise its another blend within the Butterfly lineup but if it does improve performance with the new ball then it could have a significant impact on Butterfly sales.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dream1700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by notfound123 notfound123 wrote:

This rubber will be a total failure... not only is it overpriced but it also directly competes with their brand new offering T05...and then all the T09C stuff that's rumored to be released too.

Their head of marketing better start looking for a new gig soon because he/she will be eventually let go for all this mess.

after 10 years they must release something new since the competitors keep innovating. i am guessing the new rubbers are a notch better than the old tenergies. after a year or so they will drop the price across the board by $10-20 on both tenergies and dignics, etc.


Edited by Dream1700 - 03/08/2019 at 3:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:47pm
This rubber will be a total failure... not only is it overpriced but it also directly competes with their brand new offering T05...and then all the T09C stuff that's rumored to be released too.

Their head of marketing better start looking for a new gig soon because he/she will be eventually let go for all this mess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:16pm
Dignics:

speed: 13.5
Spin. :   12.0
Hard :   40

Tenergy 05H

speed 13.0
spin.   11.5
Hard. 43

Tenergy 05

speed. 13.0
Spin. : 11.5
Hard : 36

Tenergy 80

speed: 13.25
Spin:    11.25
Hard:   36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anubhav1984 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2019 at 4:16am
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

Originally posted by anubhav1984 anubhav1984 wrote:

Even after all the price control strategies followed by butterfly  there still are regions which have butterfly products available for cheaper. India is another example where the prices of most of the butterfly products are cheaper for some reason  

Butterfly products are not cheaper in India. Tenergy retails for approximately USD 85 here. You can pay all cash, (bypassing tax, essentially illegal) and get it for USD 65-70, but the dealers themselves get it at USD 55. I know because I routinely order 10 pieces of T05 for our club here.

85, really?? At your regular TT store? I don't think anyone is debating the MSRP here. Sure, tenergy has a ridiculous MSRP in India (8200 inr if I recall correctly) but I am sure all good sellers recognize that no one buys at that ridiculous price (with or without receipt).
I usually bought my TT equipment from Olympic sports in Bangalore and the owner gave me really good rates. Happy to connect you with him! 

The reason why I was talking about the difference was because a friend from Mumbai told me that he could get me a brand new marcos freitas for 12-13k inr when freitas retails for 216 here. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2019 at 4:00am
Originally posted by anubhav1984 anubhav1984 wrote:

Even after all the price control strategies followed by butterfly  there still are regions which have butterfly products available for cheaper. India is another example where the prices of most of the butterfly products are cheaper for some reason  

Butterfly products are not cheaper in India. Tenergy retails for approximately USD 85 here. You can pay all cash, (bypassing tax, essentially illegal) and get it for USD 65-70, but the dealers themselves get it at USD 55. I know because I routinely order 10 pieces of T05 for our club here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anubhav1984 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2019 at 3:08am
Even after all the price control strategies followed by butterfly  there still are regions which have butterfly products available for cheaper. India is another example where the prices of most of the butterfly products are cheaper for some reason  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hidasjoki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2019 at 2:58am
At the local butterfly store here in Germany, they have it listed on display for €149 and the spot for Dignics is displayed at €79. They aren't available for purchase of course but they have their sales spot displayed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/26/2019 at 12:32am
Originally posted by NDH NDH wrote:

ignoring the Dignics pricing for a second (which is ridiculous), I’m more curious about the Harimoto blade. 

Butterfly aren’t known to be generous in the pricing stakes, and €150 is “relatively” cheap when compared with their other top end blades. 

I would have put a lot of money on this being over €200 at launch!

I’m looking for something a little slower than my VS Unlimited, and I like the look of the Harimoto blade (can’t say I’m particularly enamoured with the person mind you!)

Harimoto blade is showing a price of 252 USD :/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NDH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 10:34pm
I’m going to hopefully try out an Innerforce ALC and see what it’s like (ideally one of the older “oversized” heads, but it’s not that important). 

In the past few seasons, I’ve gone from a Schlager Carbon (for when I first came back to the sport), then to a Garaydia ZLC, and now the VS Unlimited. 

I could still go slower and spinnier, as I don’t need the bat to be a rocket (my technique should be good enough! 😀)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by NDH NDH wrote:

ignoring the Dignics pricing for a second (which is ridiculous), I’m more curious about the Harimoto blade. 

Butterfly aren’t known to be generous in the pricing stakes, and €150 is “relatively” cheap when compared with their other top end blades. 

I would have put a lot of money on this being over €200 at launch!

I’m looking for something a little slower than my VS Unlimited, and I like the look of the Harimoto blade (can’t say I’m particularly enamoured with the person mind you!)

You might want to try the Freitas instead. Almost exactly same composition as VS unlimited but a step slower. Innerforce blade would be a more drastic change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by NDH NDH wrote:

ignoring the Dignics pricing for a second (which is ridiculous), I’m more curious about the Harimoto blade. 

Butterfly aren’t known to be generous in the pricing stakes, and €150 is “relatively” cheap when compared with their other top end blades. 

I would have put a lot of money on this being over €200 at launch!

I’m looking for something a little slower than my VS Unlimited, and I like the look of the Harimoto blade (can’t say I’m particularly enamoured with the person mind you!)
that's what I don't understand either. I mean the apolonia is basically innerforce zlc in expensive. So it would only make sense to make the harimoto blade expensive as well, to sell a more costly version of the innerforce ALC. I'm using the innerforce ALC right now btw. Have been using it for 4 weeks now, so I'll write a review in the near future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

I'm totally irritated with their dignics price increase. I'd be pleased if dignics became a failure for btfy.

Pretty much like apple
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 7:35pm
I'm totally irritated with their dignics price increase. I'd be pleased if dignics became a failure for btfy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NDH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 7:20pm
ignoring the Dignics pricing for a second (which is ridiculous), I’m more curious about the Harimoto blade. 

Butterfly aren’t known to be generous in the pricing stakes, and €150 is “relatively” cheap when compared with their other top end blades. 

I would have put a lot of money on this being over €200 at launch!

I’m looking for something a little slower than my VS Unlimited, and I like the look of the Harimoto blade (can’t say I’m particularly enamoured with the person mind you!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

This rubber will get them a few bugs, because people are eager to try it. But after they tried it, they'll go back to their usual rubbers. 80€ is just way too much.

I hope people don´t eat this bait, not even in the beginning. No rubber worth 80 Euros, absolutely no one. BTY prices it that high because they know some will acquire it, but players must give an answer on how high we think these prices reached. 
And the best way to do it is not buying. I won´t.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 6:41pm
I don't get their thought process anymore. They are geniuses when it comes to blade marketing, but what they did just now doesn't make any sense. Why isn't the harimoto blade more expensive than the innerforce ALC? But the main thing is the pricing on their new rubber. I mean just think about it. Tenergy was already 60€, and the most expensive rubber on the market. But now 20€ more than tenergy? Are they delusional? What arguments do they have for the huge price increase? This rubber will get them a few bugs, because people are eager to try it. But after they tried it, they'll go back to their usual rubbers. 80€ is just way too much.

 Even the increase on the tenergy prices is bad. It used to be 57€. With that price tenergy was still pretty much equal to the other rubbers in overall pricing, the way I used it ( andro rubbers and so on cost 46€ minus the discounts, but last shorter, so it'll pretty much be a 5€ difference). But now with the 60€ price tag, it won't be the same. I already switched to target pro on the backhand, and if it performs just as well on the forehand, then I'll throw tenergy out the window. 

But again 80€ for a rubber? Insane. Same with the Timo boll series, which they made 20€ more expensive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 5:46pm
butterfly pricing is an embarrasment
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2019 at 8:55am
I saw the pricing of Dignics 05 in the new 2019 catalog of 79.90 euro which is 20 more than T05 they have listed for 59.90 . It appears Dignics 05 will be $90-100 here in the US. The  surprise is the Harimoto blade it's the same price as Timo Boll ALC. 

 



Edited by jpenmaster - 02/03/2019 at 9:08am
Kenta ALC T05H/T05
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smackman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2019 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by Giangt Giangt wrote:

Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:



Wasnt mizutani playing with lemuria?


Whoever suggested that must have been high on mince pies and Jaffa cakes.


Someone took a pic of jun raquet and checked the number of LARC

How do you see the larc number? there used to be a another set of pages with pictures but from the new ITTF website we cannot see this list anymore?
Go to ITTF.com choose menu, equipment and then the LARC2018B can be downloaded.

thank I was looking for the actual numbers on the rubbers? there used to be a list?

Ulmo Duality,tibhar Aurus Prime Dr N Pistal Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website,
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