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3 Tips for Bachhand Topspin against Backspin

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    Posted: 02/15/2019 at 12:16pm
For future reference.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2019 at 6:21am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

if you're having problems finishing off weaker shots, then go into practice games with the mindset to kill every ball that is reasonable. If your backhand lacks quality, then you either don't have the technique down as you think, or you have good technique in theory, but can't apply it on the table since the timing is bad. Also a good technique should include a good timing of the ball.

Btw, all of us have deficient technique and think too highly of our technique if that's the bar you're setting, once you play with any professional they will simply cut you down with the simplest of strokes. I saw a match between Brian Pace a very highly rated US player and Fang Bo, he looked like he couldn't loop simple underspin pushes, couldn't receive a simple underspin serve and couldn't return a casual slow loop...must be pretty terrible timing he has! Wink 
No. You can have a very good technique, even better than a professional and still be worse. And I don't think everyone thinks too highly of their technique. But you found something that can improve your game... "with the simplest of strokes" this is a very good point. Keeping it simple is always important. Do what works and don't overcomplicate things. And yes your consistency might suffer if you try to kill more balls after preparing them with your blocking, but that doesn't matter since it is in practice matches. The point is to program you to attack those balls in real matches. And if you don't practice enough and keep missing backhands that you try to play with power, then don't try that. There's no need to play a powerful backhand topspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2019 at 12:38am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

if you're having problems finishing off weaker shots, then go into practice games with the mindset to kill every ball that is reasonable. If your backhand lacks quality, then you either don't have the technique down as you think, or you have good technique in theory, but can't apply it on the table since the timing is bad. Also a good technique should include a good timing of the ball.

Btw, all of us have deficient technique and think too highly of our technique if that's the bar you're setting, once you play with any professional they will simply cut you down with the simplest of strokes. I saw a match between Brian Pace a very highly rated US player and Fang Bo, he looked like he couldn't loop simple underspin pushes, couldn't receive a simple underspin serve and couldn't return a casual slow loop...must be pretty terrible timing he has! Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

if you're having problems finishing off weaker shots, then go into practice games with the mindset to kill every ball that is reasonable. If your backhand lacks quality, then you either don't have the technique down as you think, or you have good technique in theory, but can't apply it on the table since the timing is bad. Also a good technique should include a good timing of the ball.

Yes that is what I need, to have the mindset to find a chance to kill the ball... I've started doing this but I'm only having like say a 20-30% accuracy rate compared to 80-90% if I do a simple counter. I wouldn't say my BH lacks qua lity just that it's inconsistent when I start applying more power. I feel like the problem is mostly timing due to lack of practice. It doesn't help that  many  club players are selfish and refuse to block properly. Countering and blocking works well only up to a certain level, after that you'll be punished if you do that because it doesn't pose enough of a threat. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 9:38pm
if you're having problems finishing off weaker shots, then go into practice games with the mindset to kill every ball that is reasonable. If your backhand lacks quality, then you either don't have the technique down as you think, or you have good technique in theory, but can't apply it on the table since the timing is bad. Also a good technique should include a good timing of the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.

Better power yes.  But I am not sure you will trap the topspin as well.  But maybe how the shot feels to me is not what I am doing. 

Thanks for all the input, so in terms of the racket tip direction, I would think that during contact it should be pointing towards the side, so that you have more room to brush the ball forward till your racket tip points towards the front right? What I understand is against strong topspin you also need a downwards component so you would have to start high and finish downwards, but the essence of the ball contact should remain the same. Against strong topspin it could also be helpful to contact more to the side to avoid the rotation axis in my opinion which helps in controlling strong spin.
It's pretty simple actually. Against topspin you need to go over the ball. Period. Against a topspin shot, you're better of blocking than trying some professional countertopspin. I think you are overthinking the topspin too much. Yes the racket head points towards the side at the beginning of the contact and goes forward during the contact a little. But it's not necessary to finish the wrist so far out. But it depends on your technique. Again the ripping technique would stop the wrist earlier than with the technique where you just throw your arm into the ball. If you were to post a video, then I could give you more useful advice. Videos always help a lot.

Yes I do placement blocking a lot, it's an integral part of my game, but the main problem I have sometimes is finishing off a weaker shot by the opponent. It's also partly caused by myself being too nice and blocking for everyone, missing the chances to practice my attacking topspins. The problem I have with videos is videos don't capture the "feeling" of the contact which is better communicated via words. You can have the exterior stroke right, but have poor ball quality if your contact is poor. 

I think we essentially agree on the contact mechanism anyway! Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.

Better power yes.  But I am not sure you will trap the topspin as well.  But maybe how the shot feels to me is not what I am doing. 

Thanks for all the input, so in terms of the racket tip direction, I would think that during contact it should be pointing towards the side, so that you have more room to brush the ball forward till your racket tip points towards the front right? What I understand is against strong topspin you also need a downwards component so you would have to start high and finish downwards, but the essence of the ball contact should remain the same. Against strong topspin it could also be helpful to contact more to the side to avoid the rotation axis in my opinion which helps in controlling strong spin.
It's pretty simple actually. Against topspin you need to go over the ball. Period. Against a topspin shot, you're better of blocking than trying some professional countertopspin. I think you are overthinking the topspin too much. Yes the racket head points towards the side at the beginning of the contact and goes forward during the contact a little. But it's not necessary to finish the wrist so far out. But it depends on your technique. Again the ripping technique would stop the wrist earlier than with the technique where you just throw your arm into the ball. If you were to post a video, then I could give you more useful advice. Videos always help a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.

Better power yes.  But I am not sure you will trap the topspin as well.  But maybe how the shot feels to me is not what I am doing. 

Thanks for all the input, so in terms of the racket tip direction, I would think that during contact it should be pointing towards the side, so that you have more room to brush the ball forward till your racket tip points towards the front right? What I understand is against strong topspin you also need a downwards component so you would have to start high and finish downwards, but the essence of the ball contact should remain the same. Against strong topspin it could also be helpful to contact more to the side to avoid the rotation axis in my opinion which helps in controlling strong spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 3:00pm
why not post a video? We are on a table tennis forum. There's nothing negative about a sports video. You could even delete it after next level sees it. Upload it somewhere and put it on private. You can make it available via a link. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
Thanks, that's clear and reasonable. One final thought as to why I disagree. If it's impossible to shorten follow though then it's also impossible to lengthen it without changing shot quality (otherwise you could shorten the longer follow through). This doesn't match my experience experimenting with different follow throughs but of course I could be mistaken.

This is actually quite true as well all things being equal as long as the stroke is a single swing.  A lot of the stroke speed is gained on the quality of the backswing.  That is why circular or whip motions to gain acceleration on the backswing to add speed to the forward swing are common in high level table tennis.  You aren't going to accelerate enough to have a good follow through without a good backswing. 

It would help to post video of your experience with follow through and see whether you are producing quite the same ball.  I can post my experience and I can show it makes a lot of difference. 
It's an interesting contention and you could be right. Maybe a whip action bh is short and fast enough that the follow through is essentially predetermined by what you do before contact. I'll definitely think about this as I'm training but unfortunately won't post video to protect online anonymity. So not fair to request your video but I'd be interested in seeing anything you posted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
Thanks, that's clear and reasonable. One final thought as to why I disagree. If it's impossible to shorten follow though then it's also impossible to lengthen it without changing shot quality (otherwise you could shorten the longer follow through). This doesn't match my experience experimenting with different follow throughs but of course I could be mistaken.

This is actually quite true as well all things being equal as long as the stroke is a single swing.  A lot of the stroke speed is gained on the quality of the backswing.  That is why circular or whip motions to gain acceleration on the backswing to add speed to the forward swing are common in high level table tennis.  You aren't going to accelerate enough to have a good follow through without a good backswing. 

It would help to post video of your experience with follow through and see whether you are producing quite the same ball.  I can post my experience and I can show it makes a lot of difference. 


Edited by NextLevel - 02/14/2019 at 1:47pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
Thanks, that's clear and reasonable. One final thought as to why I disagree. If it's impossible to shorten follow though then it's also impossible to lengthen it without changing shot quality (otherwise you could shorten the longer follow through). This doesn't match my experience experimenting with different follow throughs but of course I could be mistaken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 12:39pm
That's why I'm saying to play the ball "straight". This is of course only possible if you take the ball with good timing. To trap the ball you can do this circular movement like want Hao Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.

Better power yes.  But I am not sure you will trap the topspin as well.  But maybe how the shot feels to me is not what I am doing. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 10:12am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 8:37am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Back to the current topic....

I noticed that the OPs technique has the elbow quite close to the waist, whereas most modern BHs have elbows more stuck in front of the body... 

What's the advantages and disadvantages of the different elbow positions?

The other thing I was always a bit unsure is the bat tip direction during contact, do you contact with the bat pointing to the side, bottom or top, which is optimal?

Elbow to the side of the body produces more leverage/torque and also improves control of racket angles on shots.  I don't think there is any advantage to elbow being to close to the body other than just being easy to do (some might call it lazy).  If someone was looking for more quality from OP, he might ask OP to move that elbow out a little.

PS - I Watched the video and I didn't see anything wrong with the elbow position of the OP coach.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/14/2019 at 8:39am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.

I agree with you 100% obviously.  I hate bringing in experience with table tennis as a factor in these discussions, but often, I find that this is what is happening on the internet in my experience.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 8:32am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!

It is spinning over the ball to finish downwards .  The stroke is circular so the start of it is forwards and over the ball but it finishes to the side of you.  It is similar to the trajectory of a forehand topspin.  The key thing here is that you don't want the stroke to be going upwards forever if it is topspin.  Some people thing Wang Hao is finishing where he is because of recovery, but the truth is that look at an upside down U or semi-circle, it is the stroke path to handle the incoming spin.  He isn't so much producing strong topspin (which he will do with any looping stroke because he is Wang Hao) but trapping and relooping strong topspin.  IT might not even be "pure" topspin he is producing but the key is to produce a quality shot.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/14/2019 at 8:34am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 7:46am
One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 7:28am
Back to the current topic....

I noticed that the OPs technique has the elbow quite close to the waist, whereas most modern BHs have elbows more stuck in front of the body... 

What's the advantages and disadvantages of the different elbow positions?

The other thing I was always a bit unsure is the bat tip direction during contact, do you contact with the bat pointing to the side, bottom or top, which is optimal?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 6:54am
yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 4:05am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

@ slowhand I disagree. I thought it would be clear out of the discussion we all had the last couple of days. You say that you can do the exact same stroke (all things being the same) before the contact, but can shorten the stroke by tensing up right after the contact. If you do that, then you'll actually tense up a little before the contact as well, reducing your shot quality on contact. 

Certainly you can add tension too soon and effect shot quality. I agree this is unavoidable is you try to stop your follow through instantly after contact. But the example only involves shortening follow through, not eliminating it, by adding the tension after contact. I think you're suggesting that there's no way to add tension after contact without also adding tension before contact. Maybe because you believe tt strokes are too fast and human reflexes too slow to shorten the follow through without doing this? Or because it's psychologically impossible to shorten follow through without unconsciously tensing up before it's physically necessary? I disagree with both those ideas but maybe I misunderstand what you mean. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 2:05am
@ slowhand I disagree. I thought it would be clear out of the discussion we all had the last couple of days. You say that you can do the exact same stroke (all things being the same) before the contact, but can shorten the stroke by tensing up right after the contact. If you do that, then you'll actually tense up a little before the contact as well, reducing your shot quality on contact. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 12:26am
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).

I agree 100%. My complaints are because these statements like "follow through doesn't matter" confused me when I first heard them as an adult beginner a few years ago.  Later when I saw the kinds of players who were making them, I realized I should never have been listening to them.

I would also argue that if you swing with a turning force to bring the paddle down, the swing effect is different from if you swing with a turning force  to finish higher and recover after the stroke downward.  That is why acting like where Wang Hao is swinging towards in the videos from zeio has no effect on the stroke shows an impractical approach to TT.
" follow through doesn't matter" is always a wrong statement no matter how you twist and turn it. If a follow through is too long, then the recovery will be bad. So shortening the stroke is a good idea. If you have no problem recovering in time, then it doesn't matter what you do for the recovery. Might as well do a backflip in between shots. But the "doesn't matter" statement is total horsesh*t. I guess one really have to be new to the game to not question it. And I guess to make such a statement, one really has to never thought of table tennis in a slightly more intellectual way.

Agreed, due to biomechanics there's only very few optimal ways of producing maximum rackethead speed. There's slight variations however the basic principles remain the same. 
I have to disagree with all the agreement. Here's the question stated by NextLevel: "The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal." You all say you can't, but of course you can. One example to make this clear: Two backhands can be identical until just after the moment of ball contact, so shot quality will be identical. After contact the follow through can be made short for one (by tensing up and stopping the racket as quickly as possible) and long for the other (by remaining relaxed and letting momentum carry the wrist snap/supination/arm extension much further). Same shot quality, different follow through.

I use this example because I've been told that a longer more relaxed follow through often allows quicker recovery than a shorter more abrupt follow through. Surprised me, but I've been experimenting with it on backhand counters and I think it's true. It seems like tensing up in order to stop short and then having to recover from a dead stop can (often but not always) take more time and energy than recovery from a longer but more relaxed follow through. This is what suggested to me that the exaggerated downward follow through of Wang Hao and FZD might be less involved with shot quality and more for faster recovery.

Okay.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/14/2019 at 12:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).

I agree 100%. My complaints are because these statements like "follow through doesn't matter" confused me when I first heard them as an adult beginner a few years ago.  Later when I saw the kinds of players who were making them, I realized I should never have been listening to them.

I would also argue that if you swing with a turning force to bring the paddle down, the swing effect is different from if you swing with a turning force  to finish higher and recover after the stroke downward.  That is why acting like where Wang Hao is swinging towards in the videos from zeio has no effect on the stroke shows an impractical approach to TT.
" follow through doesn't matter" is always a wrong statement no matter how you twist and turn it. If a follow through is too long, then the recovery will be bad. So shortening the stroke is a good idea. If you have no problem recovering in time, then it doesn't matter what you do for the recovery. Might as well do a backflip in between shots. But the "doesn't matter" statement is total horsesh*t. I guess one really have to be new to the game to not question it. And I guess to make such a statement, one really has to never thought of table tennis in a slightly more intellectual way.

Agreed, due to biomechanics there's only very few optimal ways of producing maximum rackethead speed. There's slight variations however the basic principles remain the same. 
I have to disagree with all the agreement. Here's the question stated by NextLevel: "The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal." You all say you can't, but of course you can. One example to make this clear: Two backhands can be identical until just after the moment of ball contact, so shot quality will be identical. After contact the follow through can be made short for one (by tensing up and stopping the racket as quickly as possible) and long for the other (by remaining relaxed and letting momentum carry the wrist snap/supination/arm extension much further). Same shot quality, different follow through.

I use this example because I've been told that a longer more relaxed follow through often allows quicker recovery than a shorter more abrupt follow through. Surprised me, but I've been experimenting with it on backhand counters and I think it's true. It seems like tensing up in order to stop short and then having to recover from a dead stop can (often but not always) take more time and energy than recovery from a longer but more relaxed follow through. This is what suggested to me that the exaggerated downward follow through of Wang Hao and FZD might be less involved with shot quality and more for faster recovery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).

I agree 100%. My complaints are because these statements like "follow through doesn't matter" confused me when I first heard them as an adult beginner a few years ago.  Later when I saw the kinds of players who were making them, I realized I should never have been listening to them.

I would also argue that if you swing with a turning force to bring the paddle down, the swing effect is different from if you swing with a turning force  to finish higher and recover after the stroke downward.  That is why acting like where Wang Hao is swinging towards in the videos from zeio has no effect on the stroke shows an impractical approach to TT.
" follow through doesn't matter" is always a wrong statement no matter how you twist and turn it. If a follow through is too long, then the recovery will be bad. So shortening the stroke is a good idea. If you have no problem recovering in time, then it doesn't matter what you do for the recovery. Might as well do a backflip in between shots. But the "doesn't matter" statement is total horsesh*t. I guess one really have to be new to the game to not question it. And I guess to make such a statement, one really has to never thought of table tennis in a slightly more intellectual way.

Agreed, due to biomechanics there's only very few optimal ways of producing maximum rackethead speed. There's slight variations however the basic principles remain the same. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).

I agree 100%. My complaints are because these statements like "follow through doesn't matter" confused me when I first heard them as an adult beginner a few years ago.  Later when I saw the kinds of players who were making them, I realized I should never have been listening to them.

I would also argue that if you swing with a turning force to bring the paddle down, the swing effect is different from if you swing with a turning force  to finish higher and recover after the stroke downward.  That is why acting like where Wang Hao is swinging towards in the videos from zeio has no effect on the stroke shows an impractical approach to TT.
" follow through doesn't matter" is always a wrong statement no matter how you twist and turn it. If a follow through is too long, then the recovery will be bad. So shortening the stroke is a good idea. If you have no problem recovering in time, then it doesn't matter what you do for the recovery. Might as well do a backflip in between shots. But the "doesn't matter" statement is total horsesh*t. I guess one really have to be new to the game to not question it. And I guess to make such a statement, one really has to never thought of table tennis in a slightly more intellectual way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).

I agree 100%. My complaints are because these statements like "follow through doesn't matter" confused me when I first heard them as an adult beginner a few years ago.  Later when I saw the kinds of players who were making them, I realized I should never have been listening to them.

I would also argue that if you swing with a turning force to bring the paddle down, the swing effect is different from if you swing with a turning force  to finish higher and recover after the stroke downward.  That is why acting like where Wang Hao is swinging towards in the videos from zeio has no effect on the stroke shows an impractical approach to TT.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/13/2019 at 6:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/13/2019 at 12:58pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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