Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Beautiful BH technique
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Beautiful BH technique

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
Author
Robin.w View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/02/2017
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 703
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 10:31am
Chinese give it a new name :  Backhand Ripping

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

at 3m13s in that video, I would call that bh counter driving, meaning slight topspin. It's just a question of conventions, I am not sure.
Back to Top
V-Griper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 880
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 11:11am
You know what I am training this afternoon so I will try and make a video outlining the basic mechanics of each of these strokes. It's way to hard to describe all this in writing.

YE JTTAA
Yinhe Big dipper FH/BH
Back to Top
fatt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Offline
Points: 15686
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:

Chinese give it a new name :  Backhand Ripping

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

at 3m13s in that video, I would call that bh counter driving, meaning slight topspin. It's just a question of conventions, I am not sure.
I can see that, would you agree that it's like adding "off the bounce" after "counter driving" --> 5 words squeaked into one, good stuff! 
Back to Top
fatt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Offline
Points: 15686
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:


LOL, that's because most people tend to think the BH is only one shot when it's actually 3 distinct fundamental actions along with there associated torso action and weight transfer. 

These descriptions are mostly what pros are doing as most amateurs only focus on the arm and wrist motion and maybe add the torso as they get better. Reference is for right handed players.

The first one would be "standard" BH which typically a small clockwise torso rotation with a small weight transfer(left hip extension) from the left foot to the right foot. This one is used for drives and loop drives and has the most power as it's the biggest movement. Think Mattias Falck. 

The second one is a double hip extension which is one of the ones we are talking about. This one is in the vertical plane where the player pushes up with both legs and as the angle between the torso and the thigh open up(double hip extension) the arm/paddle is "dragged" up into the ball. The weight shift for this forward and backward but it's very tight so difficult to perceive. A crude analogy would be like a bow where the body is the bow and there is an imaginary string between the foot and the shoulders(the arm). When you "close" the angle at the hip the string goes slack. When you "open"(hip extension) the string(arm) is pulled taught. My analogy would make the ball the arrow. This BH is mostly used for lifting underspin and in general places more emphassis on spin.  

The third one would be the BH counter hit/block/punch block. This one has a small weight transfer(right hip extension) from right to left with clockwise torso rotation. The arm is "pushed" out straight like a punch hence "punch block". You see this when the opponent hits a FH into the BH corner then the punch block down the line. Aso used when control is the general priority on shots where the player doesn't have to generate much of their own power. 
...
I was full on #2 for a while following those yellowish low quality TB's tutorial videos from a while back and for the sake of simplicity, I prefer today see #2 as a appendix of #1 where, instead of pushing harder from the non-playing leg, the playing leg pushes as much. It's just to simplify so the close to the table bh is the same than the one from a distance, the hips rotation being minimal up front so legs push almost the same amount. 
I find value in reducing the number of factors involved and placing #2 as a subset of #1 helps a lot. The #3 is strongly alone as plan B when the recovery from the last shot is too slow and the ball is already there in the elbow zone. When we have time, #1 seems the best to me. That would make #1 the absolute reference, #2 a subset of #1 and #3 a plan B for slow feet.
Reducing complexity is always best when no information is lost and seeing things that way helps me clear the fog.
Back to Top
balldance View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/28/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 190
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 1:19pm
I don't think this counter clockwise hip rotation is anything new, guys. It's just natural for a BH drive where you stretch/extend your arm and elbow forward, your lower body will automatically rotate that way. It's almost impossible to do the opposite. Maybe it's more pronounced with Harimoto because his BH strokes are based on the close-to-table drive/punch stroke rather than a traditional BH loop and he's very aggressive with his BH drive.

Look at this video at 5:53, was Ma Long's BH drive just the same mechanic?



The obvious sign is the right half of the body leans forward (and the left half backward, for a righty).



Edited by balldance - 04/06/2019 at 1:22pm
Back to Top
Robin.w View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/02/2017
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 703
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 1:39pm
Perfect explained! Instant wrist swing and using power from your back of the hand and thumb are very important 
For this technique, Ma long even change the backhand rubber from T64 to Neo H3 37 degrees. He need the tacky top sheet and soft sponge to catch the ball right off the bounce and generate more topspin.  Even he lost some speed from the T64, he can still put enough pressure on his opponent. Changing rhythm from time to time make this technique more effective and the 37 degree h3 also has that control . Ma long earned his nickname of “Qizong Dashi” aka” “master of rubber and blade”  for a long time
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:

Chinese give it a new name :  Backhand Ripping

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

at 3m13s in that video, I would call that bh counter driving, meaning slight topspin. It's just a question of conventions, I am not sure.
I can see that, would you agree that it's like adding "off the bounce" after "counter driving" --> 5 words squeaked into one, good stuff! 


Edited by Robin.w - 04/06/2019 at 1:50pm
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2580
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:


LOL, that's because most people tend to think the BH is only one shot when it's actually 3 distinct fundamental actions along with there associated torso action and weight transfer. 

These descriptions are mostly what pros are doing as most amateurs only focus on the arm and wrist motion and maybe add the torso as they get better. Reference is for right handed players.

The first one would be "standard" BH which typically a small clockwise torso rotation with a small weight transfer(left hip extension) from the left foot to the right foot. This one is used for drives and loop drives and has the most power as it's the biggest movement. Think Mattias Falck. 

The second one is a double hip extension which is one of the ones we are talking about. This one is in the vertical plane where the player pushes up with both legs and as the angle between the torso and the thigh open up(double hip extension) the arm/paddle is "dragged" up into the ball. The weight shift for this forward and backward but it's very tight so difficult to perceive. A crude analogy would be like a bow where the body is the bow and there is an imaginary string between the foot and the shoulders(the arm). When you "close" the angle at the hip the string goes slack. When you "open"(hip extension) the string(arm) is pulled taught. My analogy would make the ball the arrow. This BH is mostly used for lifting underspin and in general places more emphassis on spin.  

The third one would be the BH counter hit/block/punch block. This one has a small weight transfer(right hip extension) from right to left with clockwise torso rotation. The arm is "pushed" out straight like a punch hence "punch block". You see this when the opponent hits a FH into the BH corner then the punch block down the line. Aso used when control is the general priority on shots where the player doesn't have to generate much of their own power. 
...
I was full on #2 for a while following those yellowish low quality TB's tutorial videos from a while back and for the sake of simplicity, I prefer today see #2 as a appendix of #1 where, instead of pushing harder from the non-playing leg, the playing leg pushes as much. It's just to simplify so the close to the table bh is the same than the one from a distance, the hips rotation being minimal up front so legs push almost the same amount. 
I find value in reducing the number of factors involved and placing #2 as a subset of #1 helps a lot. The #3 is strongly alone as plan B when the recovery from the last shot is too slow and the ball is already there in the elbow zone. When we have time, #1 seems the best to me. That would make #1 the absolute reference, #2 a subset of #1 and #3 a plan B for slow feet.
Reducing complexity is always best when no information is lost and seeing things that way helps me clear the fog.

#1 can be seen in Kreanga, Kenta Matsudaira, ZJK, and 2013-2014 Ma Long.
#2 is very evident in Timo Boll and current Ma Long.

Harimoto uses #3 at all distances, but there is no clockwise torso rotation, it's all counterclockwise from the hip as well as any thoracic rotation. Also, there is no "small weight transfer" it is as significant as the FH, he even lifts his heels to engage the calves. Only the bat moves clockwise due to the  action of the forearm and supination, the body is moving counterclockwise.  It is not just a BH drive/counter borrowing power but can easily transition to a very powerful and spinny loop due to heavy involvement of the lower body. This is the innovation that he is bringing into the game. There is never any confusion on the weight transfer and hip rotation, it is always the same...

Also I don't think it is any weaker than #1 due to the involvement of the lower body. In fact I would argue that it can be even stronger. Compare the power between punching a bag and flinging a frisbee?  


Edited by blahness - 04/06/2019 at 6:03pm
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3 Neo
Back to Top
V-Griper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 880
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


#1 can be seen in Kreanga, Kenta Matsudaira, ZJK, and 2013-2014 Ma Long.
#2 is very evident in Timo Boll and current Ma Long.

Harimoto uses #3 at all distances, but there is no clockwise torso rotation, it's all counterclockwise from the hip as well as any thoracic rotation. Also, there is no "small weight transfer" it is as significant as the FH, he even lifts his heels to engage the calves. Only the bat moves clockwise due to the  action of the forearm and supination, the body is moving counterclockwise.  It is not just a BH drive/counter borrowing power but can easily transition to a very powerful and spinny loop due to heavy involvement of the lower body. This is the innovation that he is bringing into the game. There is never any confusion on the weight transfer and hip rotation, it is always the same...

Also I don't think it is any weaker than #1 due to the involvement of the lower body. In fact I would argue that it can be even stronger. Compare the power between punching a bag and flinging a frisbee?  

You are correct that it is a counterclockwise rotation that was a typo. I have corrected it and highlighted the change.  


YE JTTAA
Yinhe Big dipper FH/BH
Back to Top
APW46 View Drop Down
Assistant Moderator
Assistant Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 02/02/2009
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3342
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2019 at 5:32am
Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:

Chinese give it a new name :  Backhand Ripping

 I don't think so, I've been Backhand ripping for 30 years.
The Older I get, The better I was.
Back to Top
ghostzen View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 08/15/2010
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 410
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2019 at 8:00am
Clap and a cracking backhand it is as well my friend  
Back to Top
serr View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 09/10/2018
Location: Poland
Status: Online
Points: 92
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2019 at 5:21pm
Today I tried to use counterclockwise rotation on bh drives and punches. I could generate laughable amounts of power that I ended up using only hand, no body for bh for more control in matches. I'm at the edge of switching to long pips.
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2580
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2019 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

Today I tried to use counterclockwise rotation on bh drives and punches. I could generate laughable amounts of power that I ended up using only hand, no body for bh for more control in matches. I'm at the edge of switching to long pips.

Didn't really understand this haha....
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3 Neo
Back to Top
serr View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 09/10/2018
Location: Poland
Status: Online
Points: 92
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2019 at 5:56pm
I mean harimoto style hitting doesn't work at all for me. I can only do normal BH from left to right on both drives and loops. Counterclockwise rotation of the body only dismisses my final bat speed so I can't hit any hard 
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2580
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2019 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

I mean harimoto style hitting doesn't work at all for me. I can only do normal BH from left to right on both drives and loops. Counterclockwise rotation of the body only dismisses my final bat speed so I can't hit any hard 

Lol...you should stick with whatever works for you! Counterclockwise rotation is quite counterintuitive, especially if you've done the left to right method for years (which I did)... It's not just the body involvement but the stroke trajectory and philosophy which is completely different, closest analogy I had was a straight punch vs throwing a frisbee. 
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3 Neo
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.051 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
About MyTableTennis.NET | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2019 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.