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Dangers of waist rotation

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Just wanted to add that I noticed the lumbar twisting even during serves. So be sure to work on that area too! It felt even more strange at first, since I usually serve and rotate through to be in my ready position. Quite awkward not rotating the lumbar to start with... 

Also for chopping, the lumbar can be held still. It's been tricky for me as well. The heel turning helps a lot there to open up the hips. The ab bracing isnt too taxing either, since the chops have more time between them in comparison to doing counter attacks at the table. 

Actually thinking about it, there's no reason why you couldn't also do thoracic rotation to replace waist rotation for the BH chop...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Just wanted to add that I noticed the lumbar twisting even during serves. So be sure to work on that area too! It felt even more strange at first, since I usually serve and rotate through to be in my ready position. Quite awkward not rotating the lumbar to start with... 

Also for chopping, the lumbar can be held still. It's been tricky for me as well. The heel turning helps a lot there to open up the hips. The ab bracing isnt too taxing either, since the chops have more time between them in comparison to doing counter attacks at the table. 

Actually thinking about it, there's no reason why you couldn't also do thoracic rotation to replace waist rotation for the BH chop...
yes, we need to protect people from bad form and injuries, like the dude below, he seem to be so vulnerable LOL

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Just wanted to add that I noticed the lumbar twisting even during serves. So be sure to work on that area too! It felt even more strange at first, since I usually serve and rotate through to be in my ready position. Quite awkward not rotating the lumbar to start with... 

Also for chopping, the lumbar can be held still. It's been tricky for me as well. The heel turning helps a lot there to open up the hips. The ab bracing isnt too taxing either, since the chops have more time between them in comparison to doing counter attacks at the table. 

Actually thinking about it, there's no reason why you couldn't also do thoracic rotation to replace waist rotation for the BH chop...
yes, we need to protect people from bad form and injuries, like the dude below, he seem to be so vulnerable LOL

 

Hahahaha! Actually looking at Joo there, looks like he's doing it with no issues, the hips are rotated 90 deg and the shoulders are aligned with the hips ie no waist rotation, the shoulders are at the same height indicating no waist bending. It's a pretty good example imo lol....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Just wanted to add that I noticed the lumbar twisting even during serves. So be sure to work on that area too! It felt even more strange at first, since I usually serve and rotate through to be in my ready position. Quite awkward not rotating the lumbar to start with... 

Also for chopping, the lumbar can be held still. It's been tricky for me as well. The heel turning helps a lot there to open up the hips. The ab bracing isnt too taxing either, since the chops have more time between them in comparison to doing counter attacks at the table. 

Actually thinking about it, there's no reason why you couldn't also do thoracic rotation to replace waist rotation for the BH chop...
yes, we need to protect people from bad form and injuries, like the dude below, he seem to be so vulnerable LOL

 

Hahahaha! Actually looking at Joo there, looks like he's doing it with no issues, the hips are rotated 90 deg and the shoulders are aligned with the hips ie no waist rotation, the shoulders are at the same height indicating no waist bending. It's a pretty good example imo lol....

That's a pretty extreme chop too! The picture is cut off but in the full one, his left foot is point out parallel to the edge of the table. It's not angled forward at all, which further backs up the feet positioning. You cant leave your toes aimed at the table and expect to reach that ball without lumbar rotation... his right foot often goes almost flat on the ground. That is, the instep of his foot is nearly touch the ground as if he were going to fall down sideways. 


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Edited by obesechopper - 04/03/2019 at 9:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 10:49pm
well...it would be hard to justify the foot going in another direction than the upper leg's in the picture, it would be dangerous either way.
I like your picture! I am no chopper: is it dogma that, when resting strongly on the playing leg for a bh chop, the foot should always be in line with the bent upper leg?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2019 at 12:28am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

well...it would be hard to justify the foot going in another direction than the upper leg's in the picture, it would be dangerous either way.
I like your picture! I am no chopper: is it dogma that, when resting strongly on the playing leg for a bh chop, the foot should always be in line with the bent upper leg?


If I'm understanding you correctly... the foot goes in line with the leg naturally, because hes having to step out very wide to the bh angle and to do so with the foot facing forward (more like an attackers side shuffle) would feel quite odd and slow. Since hes not pivoting on the foot as youd do with a fh loop. His foot is planted as a base and hes moving in a sideways direction with high speed. Like if you were facing me square on and I threw a ball a bit far to your left, would you side shuffle to grab it? Or turn and essentially run toward your left direction 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2019 at 3:09am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Blah what do you think about Liu Song and the thoracic?

I've always thought he had a rather strange, almost stiff looking forehand. And now when reviewing his technique... it seems that he only utilizes the thoracic portion for the rotation mostly. Kind of hard to tell at times though 

Check out this clip 



To me it looks like his waist/belly button is always point forward in the direction of his hips. He doesn't ever rotate the waist across his hips. 

Just had a look, he doesn't rotate the waist and doesn't do the thoracic rotation either (shoulders are always in line with the hips), it's a pure hip rotation...it looks weird because his front foot is placed so forward compared to other players

Hmm... then in this Liu Shiwen point at 1:58, it looks like pretty much only thoracic?


...

I'm pretty sure not a single pro that's sort of well known (except for Harimoto )is employing the thoracic rotation, it's a pretty exclusive club at the moment!
Karakasevic? When he is not lazy to do full backswing forehand, his elbow goes way behind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2019 at 4:14am
Originally posted by garwor garwor wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Blah what do you think about Liu Song and the thoracic?

I've always thought he had a rather strange, almost stiff looking forehand. And now when reviewing his technique... it seems that he only utilizes the thoracic portion for the rotation mostly. Kind of hard to tell at times though 

Check out this clip 



To me it looks like his waist/belly button is always point forward in the direction of his hips. He doesn't ever rotate the waist across his hips. 

Just had a look, he doesn't rotate the waist and doesn't do the thoracic rotation either (shoulders are always in line with the hips), it's a pure hip rotation...it looks weird because his front foot is placed so forward compared to other players

Hmm... then in this Liu Shiwen point at 1:58, it looks like pretty much only thoracic?


...

I'm pretty sure not a single pro that's sort of well known (except for Harimoto )is employing the thoracic rotation, it's a pretty exclusive club at the moment!
Karakasevic? When he is not lazy to do full backswing forehand, his elbow goes way behind.

Just watched some of his matches, he also rotates at his waist and also drops his shoulder significantly... He brings the elbow back using the upper arm without the shoulders rotating much unlike Harimoto. If you look at his shoulders it never reaches the 30-45 deg relative to the hips which is the true sign of thoracic rotation (lumbar rotation does not have this range of motion)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2019 at 4:40am
Karakasevic here doing a FH loop

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2019 at 8:19am
youre right
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2019 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by garwor garwor wrote:

youre right

I'll be surprised if Kara doesn't have lower back problems with this kinda  FH backswing, but maybe he doesn't do it often enough to cause problems unlike Waldner!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2019 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by garwor garwor wrote:

youre right

I'll be surprised if Kara doesn't have lower back problems with this kinda  FH backswing, but maybe he doesn't do it often enough to cause problems unlike Waldner!

I'm sure certain movements can worsen or hasten the lower back problems... but a lot of it seems to be genetic as well. I was watching some interviews and such a bit ago, where doctors were seeing 20 year old women with pretty badly injured lumbars -- and they had no exercise background or anything you'd suspect to be the obvious cause at such a young age. And then you have some lifters well into their old age still pumping iron, without any problems. Point being, much of the lumbar/back injuries were being blamed in large part on basic genetics. 

No reason to take your chances, though... work on the form/technique that gives you the least amount of pain/injury!! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2019 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

So we have 3 axis: one going through the hips, one through the waist, one through the shoulders. The 2 lower ones ideally stay together and always point to the same direction. The top one may travel further than the 2 lower ones, either way.

Is that an acceptable simplification?

Hi fatt, yes this is indeed the case to ensure that we're not hurting our lower backs!
thanks a lot, I was off at some point, mixing the top 2 together. 
Adding the boxing analogy and the upper back safer rotation to explanations helped a lot to get the topic's big picture in simple words, again thank you for developing that topic, I feel like I understand the game better today and in a safer way.
For all the players we know they were injured because they are famous, how many are suffering anonymously because that danger was not acknowledged earlier? I will definitely introduce this when I coach people 1 on 1 at my place.

I wanted to say that with that 3-axis simplified model, I really feel like I learned something fundamental. Thanks a lot for that, it’s huge to me. WELL DONE BLAHNESS!!!

PS: little correction from above, I should have written “The 2 lower ones ideally stay together on the same plane.”




Edited by fatt - 04/16/2019 at 8:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2019 at 10:28pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

So we have 3 axis: one going through the hips, one through the waist, one through the shoulders. The 2 lower ones ideally stay together and always point to the same direction. The top one may travel further than the 2 lower ones, either way.

Is that an acceptable simplification?

Hi fatt, yes this is indeed the case to ensure that we're not hurting our lower backs!
thanks a lot, I was off at some point, mixing the top 2 together. 
Adding the boxing analogy and the upper back safer rotation to explanations helped a lot to get the topic's big picture in simple words, again thank you for developing that topic, I feel like I understand the game better today and in a safer way.
For all the players we know they were injured because they are famous, how many are suffering anonymously because that danger was not acknowledged earlier? I will definitely introduce this when I coach people 1 on 1 at my place.

I wanted to say that with that 3-axis simplified model, I really feel like I learned something fundamental. Thanks a lot for that, it’s huge to me. WELL DONE BLAHNESS!!!

PS: little correction from above, I should have written “The 2 lower ones ideally stay together on the same plane.”



Thanks fatt for the compliments, it's probably one of my better contributions to the forum :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2019 at 10:47pm
Checking in to say the thoracic rotation club is still working great for me as well! No back issues at all since taking up the new technique. None when chopping either. I think the backhand chop had been the real killer for me previously. Lunging sidestep with a complete lumbar twist... ow! 

Still not perfectly fine tuned but much, much better than anything else 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2019 at 10:00am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Checking in to say the thoracic rotation club is still working great for me as well! No back issues at all since taking up the new technique. None when chopping either. I think the backhand chop had been the real killer for me previously. Lunging sidestep with a complete lumbar twist... ow! 

Still not perfectly fine tuned but much, much better than anything else 

Great to hear that! For me I feel that attackers moving to the deep FH to loop is also very similar to the backhand chop, turning the feet actually helps so much! I've been trying to ingrain this into my muscle memory...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2019 at 3:42am
No problems with waist rotation for me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2019 at 3:56am
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

No problems with waist rotation for me

You're welcome to use it till your lumbar gives out 20-30 yrs down the road or maybe if you're genetically lucky, never :)

I have a 20's friend who came from Chinese TT sports school, he already has regular lumbar pain but also refuses to change his technique even after he agreed with me that waist rotation/bending is the key issue there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2019 at 4:58am
If I brace the core, does it mean I don't rotate my waist? I can't tell if I do the "no waist technique" properly

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/18/2019 at 5:34am
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

If I brace the core, does it mean I don't rotate my waist? I can't tell if I do the "no waist technique" properly


For me I use my belly button as a point of reference, if that moves relative to the hips then waist rotation is being used. Also the love handles should not be compressed or twisted in any way if you're not using your waist. 

Another way is tie your pants tight at the waist level, if you try to rotate the waist the pants will tell you that you're rotating from the waist lol...

Generally if you're bracing your core well then you're can't be using waist rotation...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2019 at 11:20am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

No problems with waist rotation for me

You're welcome to use it till your lumbar gives out 20-30 yrs down the road or maybe if you're genetically lucky, never :)

I have a 20's friend who came from Chinese TT sports school, he already has regular lumbar pain but also refuses to change his technique even after he agreed with me that waist rotation/bending is the key issue there!

Same thing I had. Guy complains about back pain every session, tried the thoracic technique for a few weeks of learning, was not able to learn it so reverted back to mr. Back pain! 

It took me about a week of heavy bracing and shadow practice to get it down to where I didn't use the lumbar. I may use it a few times here and there still, but nothing like the hundreds of times per day I was previously. Shit, even now if someone standing behind me calls for my attention, I just rotate with the thoracic lol... 

Another person who emphasizes the thoracic a lot is pro strongman Martins Licis. When watching his videos he always says do not bend from the lumbar, go from the thoracic. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2019 at 6:57am
The thoracic technique might be a nice add on, but the hips are more important. Using the hips makes it hard to mess up the technique and use the lumbar spine. Using the thoracic rotation is closer to the lumbar rotation and one might still use lumbar rotation on accident. Using the hips is the best thing to do. I'm saying this because I see a lot of posts about thoracic rotation on here, but not about the hip use. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2019 at 7:03am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

The thoracic technique might be a nice add on, but the hips are more important. Using the hips makes it hard to mess up the technique and use the lumbar spine. Using the thoracic rotation is closer to the lumbar rotation and one might still use lumbar rotation on accident. Using the hips is the best thing to do. I'm saying this because I see a lot of posts about thoracic rotation on here, but not about the hip use. 

Would agree with you completely, a good hip rotation is the key, the thoracic rotation is a nice addon that can be used in bad positions and for some extra power....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 6:46am
I'm in the process of eliminating waist rotation from my BH chiquita too...This will force me to use more arm there...see pics below for before and after transitions...




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 7:07am
So instead of rotating and coiling the torso like ZJK which I believe is quite damaging to the lumbar, I'm switching to Harimoto's method where there is minimal lifting of the elbow and no torso rotation. I feel that the arm has to do more work in Harimoto's version, but throwing the arm forward like a punch also creates quite a lot of power. 
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