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Next phase of my game, or not

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vanjr View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03/20/2019 at 11:38am
LONG. Sorry.

I know I will lose the one or two of you who do not hate my intermittent smart aleck quotes, but I desire some feedback from the table tennis masses. You will see how lowly I am below since no one with a rating of USATT 1600s is deserving of an opinion. (You man have seen mjamja for a few video links to older matches).

In addition to being an EJ, I have been a style junkie to some degree over the years. I do not have access to a coach and while I have had some coaching as an adult, I would not consider myself well trained in the classical manner by any means.

I am also a medical doctor/pediatric pathologist, so I will organize this like a history and physical.

Chief Complaint-want to improve my table tennis game; winning is usually more fun than losing. Specifically stay double inverted attacker or go to LP backhand to set up FH attack with some twiddling. 

Past Medical (Table tennis)
Played as a kid (some lessons from New Mexico state champ). No sanctioned tournaments.
Some high school and college play. No coaching. Played Mississippi closed tournament in 1983 at Miss State-ended with a rating of low 1000s (which galled me since my roommate who I beat probably 70% of the time ended up in the 1100s). Won my college intramurals tournament every year they had it
Played some in med school won school tournaments.
Played at Univ Iowa table tennis club. Was able to progress to a CLUB rating of 1600s (I do not think I was at that USATT rating). One of the players there was Jimmy Butlers dad and sister (I could beat her, but only beat his dad once out of many, many games).
Fast forward to 2002-joined Corpus Christi club and played double inverted (as all prior). Always Fh player with a week BH. First tournament was 2004 ended with a rating of 1196. Then began with LP OX and a chopping game and quickly rose to 1667 in 2005 and eventually to 1898 in 2011. Began to lose as players caught on. Tried double inverted game after first tournament in 2013 (rating fell from mid 1800s to low 1700s). Played till 2015 then tried chopping with slower Short pips in 2015 and 2016 (not happy with that-was bad at everything with that stuff-rating still falling to upper 1600s). Been back to double inverted since fall of 2016 and rating is now down to 1628 after my last tournament. While my rating is lower, my FH is better and BH is getting better. Footwork has gotten significantly worse.

Last tournament was earlier this month. (aside I have played 3 tournaments a year only two times in my life-2 tournaments three times and 1 tournament five times and 0 tournaments four times since 2004). But I play extremely regularly at our small club.
At the last tournament, I was ready to jump back to LP in the morning where I had my problems (I had to go to 5 games and play 3rd ball killer from hell after getting down 1-2 games with a 1015 rated junior to eek out a win). While the afternoon I enjoyed playing double inverted and gave a 1890 player a tough game.

Physical exam-in my early LP chopping days I was running extremely regularly and racing and weighed in mid 150s at most. I am now almost 10 years old, weigh closer to mid 180s and do not move as well. I want to end points early either way.

I am trying to decide to maybe play both types of equipment at a tournament-I would rather play double inverted against an anti-spin or LP player and against a some higher rated players use my LP. I have a friend who plays and beats me who says I am much tougher playing with LP-although last week I lost a match to him 0-3 with my LP and beat him 3-1 (first match of day) with my double inverted.

IF anyone has read this far, suggestions? (hi Mark, I figure your are the only one-Rick keeps saying we need to go a different route).
Gambler Hinoki Vector blade; Double inverted. Or some LPs.
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jfolsen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 12:05pm
Switching back and forth could be effective for your rating and win percentage. I would try it if I were you.
 
It's fairly universal that LP players do worse in their own club where people are used to them than at tournaments. Juniors with little experience and players from small clubs with no LP players are particularly susceptible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 12:25pm
I think you would do well with double inverted and played a style like Mattenet.  That is stay close to the table for the first 4-5 balls looking to attack if your serve or return forces a weak ball.  If you get attacked first block once and retreat.  Once off table just play steady return or fish, but always looking for a weak ball to counter-attack.  I think you have very good surprise counter-attacks from off the table.  I just think you force them too much (esp. from Bh) rather than waiting for the right ball.  Fishing gives you more time to get into postion for the next ball than driving or even hitting fast low chops.

Of course good fishing always gives me problems so I may be overestimating what you can do against other players with it.  I do think you should do more 3rd ball kills since from what I have seen you are pretty good at it.

Mark

PS - You are not allowed to use any of the MYTT suggestions against me tonight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Chief Complaint-want to improve my table tennis game; winning is usually more fun than losing. Specifically stay double inverted attacker or go to LP backhand to set up FH attack with some twiddling.


Okay, here is the problem as I see it.  Your struggle to choose between two competing styles arises from fixating on winning/losing.  Looking at your history and its detailed rendition of your rating, it seems to me that you're not playing for fun.

The question I would ask is, "Which of the two styles gives you the most personal enjoyment - regardless of win/lose ratio?"  Of course, one possible answer is, "I enjoy both styles equally and have fun swapping backwards and forwards."  Regardless, choose what is going to give you the most joy and stick with it. 

The aim is enjoyment and if you can only enjoy the game when you're winning then you're always going to be unhappy.  Because there will always be players who are better than you.

EDIT
What's going on here?  I just found where you posted a few hours earlier on another thread:
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I am shocked that the "end the point quick" strategy is something you are just now trying. I am definitely going to that style myself.


Edited by Tassie52 - 03/20/2019 at 11:08pm
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mjamja View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 1:31am
He did work on the end it quickly strategy with LP blocking tonight. 

Serve topspin, block any topspin return  short with LP,  5th ball kill any push return of block even if he had to use extreme pivot move to get Fh into play.  He did rather well with it.  I did not even touch most of his kills.  They were very fast and very well placed.  He actually pivots very well, but is likely to not recover well if his kill is returned.  He did not have a problem with me returning them.

This is a lot different than the way he used to play with LP.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 7:35am
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Chief Complaint-want to improve my table tennis game; winning is usually more fun than losing. Specifically stay double inverted attacker or go to LP backhand to set up FH attack with some twiddling.


Okay, here is the problem as I see it.  Your struggle to choose between two competing styles arises from fixating on winning/losing.  Looking at your history and its detailed rendition of your rating, it seems to me that you're not playing for fun.

The question I would ask is, "Which of the two styles gives you the most personal enjoyment - regardless of win/lose ratio?"  Of course, one possible answer is, "I enjoy both styles equally and have fun swapping backwards and forwards."  Regardless, choose what is going to give you the most joy and stick with it. 

The aim is enjoyment and if you can only enjoy the game when you're winning then you're always going to be unhappy.  Because there will always be players who are better than you.

EDIT
What's going on here?  I just found where you posted a few hours earlier on another thread:
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I am shocked that the "end the point quick" strategy is something you are just now trying. I am definitely going to that style myself.

I am sure I am not clear. While winning is fun, I play because I enjoy playing. I have many matches that I lose that I enjoy because I play well. I also have many matches that I win, but do not enjoy because I play poorly. 

You did hit on a good point. I do enjoy both styles. I am not sure if they are equal. I enjoy the variety. One thing that may be pertinent is that I have a return board to practice with. Seems impossible to practice LP play with that. I am getting a robot and that may allow better practice with LP.  
Gambler Hinoki Vector blade; Double inverted. Or some LPs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/25/2019 at 11:34am
Follow-up. Had some good play with mjamja this past saturday at CCTTC, which is not too far from GITTC. Lost my first match to him with double inverted 2-3, won an end of the day match with my LP (where he was clearly focusing on one serve that played to my strength) 3-0.

One unique thing I am going to do when I play with LP is that except for BH serves with inverted, I do NOT plan to twiddle during the point. So I will play a number of points-including serve return with inverted on my BH. Unlike other LP players I PLAN TO CHICKEN WING with my BH inverted side, as my play with LP on my FH side is absolutely atrocious. Mark says "it won't work," which is all the more reason to go with it. 

edit-again my goal is to play an "end the point quick" game using the LP to set up my attack.


Edited by vanjr - 03/25/2019 at 11:37am
Gambler Hinoki Vector blade; Double inverted. Or some LPs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/25/2019 at 7:29pm
When you're stuck with LP on your FH returning a serve to your FH, I think you should also try a footwork side shuffle to your right and take a normal or banana inverted BH return (with immediate shuffle back into position) and see if it works better than inverted chicken wing. You should also try the FH LP side swipe as another option - doesn't have to be forceful.
We need to build a ball to keep the illegal servers from entering our tournaments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/25/2019 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

When you're stuck with LP on your FH returning a serve to your FH, I think you should also try a footwork side shuffle to your right and take a normal or banana inverted BH return (with immediate shuffle back into position) and see if it works better than inverted chicken wing. You should also try the FH LP side swipe as another option - doesn't have to be forceful.

For instance, see how Park Hyun Mi returns serves to FH with LP (it's on my list of things to try...):


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/25/2019 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

When you're stuck with LP on your FH returning a serve to your FH, I think you should also try a footwork side shuffle to your right and take a normal or banana inverted BH return (with immediate shuffle back into position) and see if it works better than inverted chicken wing. You should also try the FH LP side swipe as another option - doesn't have to be forceful.

I think it is relatively straightforward to return all serves with my BH with the inverted. Banana, strawberry or whatever for short underspin, footwork for long to FH. Off the table it may be awkward. I will also use LP on serve returns as well. The main thing will be variation 
Gambler Hinoki Vector blade; Double inverted. Or some LPs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/25/2019 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

When you're stuck with LP on your FH returning a serve to your FH, I think you should also try a footwork side shuffle to your right and take a normal or banana inverted BH return (with immediate shuffle back into position) and see if it works better than inverted chicken wing. You should also try the FH LP side swipe as another option - doesn't have to be forceful.

For instance, see how Park Hyun Mi returns serves to FH with LP (it's on my list of things to try...):



looks very difficult. I have a Korean exchange student living with us this year. maybe he can translate.
Gambler Hinoki Vector blade; Double inverted. Or some LPs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/25/2019 at 8:36pm
Well, it's a match, not a technique tutorial, so I doubt there is much of value in captions to translate. My 'plan' was to try what she does and see how far I can get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/25/2019 at 9:27pm
Van,
It was not covered in your original manifesto, but do you spend any time practicing serves?
I am sorta old and fat and I do not practice enough, which gives me timing issues.  I also choke when I play tournaments, although I am working on that.  Since I do not practice enough to have good footwork and good timing, I make sure I spend fifteen minutes every time I play with a bucket of balls just practicing serves.
My basic premise is the came as yours: finish the point early.  The earliest you can finish the point is with a service winner, so I get 2-3 points on my serve outright against people who I practice with regularly and 4-5 point against people who do not know me.
The rest of my game still sucks, but the serve saves my ass (until I start choking at which point I miss serves and have to revert back to very simple ones I can actually land under stress).  Better players at some point figure out that they can just softly float the ball back to me with all that spin and watch me get nervous, but that's the reason why they are better players.
If I were you, I would stay with LPs on the BH and work on developing heavy and tricky serves.  If someone returns your own spin to you, poke it back with LPs.  If they pop it up, attack with your FH.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 11:12am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Well, it's a match, not a technique tutorial, so I doubt there is much of value in captions to translate. My 'plan' was to try what she does and see how far I can get.
Yep, some of Korean is just "good natured" profanity per my source. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 11:21am
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Van,
It was not covered in your original manifesto, but do you spend any time practicing serves?
I am sorta old and fat and I do not practice enough, which gives me timing issues.  I also choke when I play tournaments, although I am working on that.  Since I do not practice enough to have good footwork and good timing, I make sure I spend fifteen minutes every time I play with a bucket of balls just practicing serves.
My basic premise is the came as yours: finish the point early.  The earliest you can finish the point is with a service winner, so I get 2-3 points on my serve outright against people who I practice with regularly and 4-5 point against people who do not know me.
The rest of my game still sucks, but the serve saves my ass (until I start choking at which point I miss serves and have to revert back to very simple ones I can actually land under stress).  Better players at some point figure out that they can just softly float the ball back to me with all that spin and watch me get nervous, but that's the reason why they are better players.
If I were you, I would stay with LPs on the BH and work on developing heavy and tricky serves.  If someone returns your own spin to you, poke it back with LPs.  If they pop it up, attack with your FH.

ILya

I did not cover it, but yes, serve practice is HIGH on my agenda. I was really impressed with a high 1900 rated player who beat me in the last tournament. His BH play was fantastic and so were his serves. But he was not super mobile or clearly athletic. He essentially beat me with his serves alone. The only real limitation to my serve practice is a low ceiling in our house, so no high toss serves, but I should be able to refine my BH serves for sure. My serves at decent for my level, but not overly deceptive. There is significant room for improvement in that area. 

Last thing I did not cover in my manifesto. I plan to play with double inverted much of the time and probably ALL of the time against other LP players, antispin and SP hitters. Back when I played defense and chopped, there was nothing I hated matching up against than a SP penhold hitter-they would exploit the heck out of my LP. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 11:26am
I actually found that with some practice it's easier to play other LP/antispin players with LP. At some point it becomes an experience thing - if you play pips-to-pips more than they do,  advantage (quite significant) to you. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/09/2019 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Well, it's a match, not a technique tutorial, so I doubt there is much of value in captions to translate. My 'plan' was to try what she does and see how far I can get.

I have been copying her FH technique with my LP and this has been a huge improvement. I am not sure why. Gotta keep practicing this. I visualize it as a block/counter with the tip of my blade pointed vertically (Up or north) rather than horizontally. 

examples-point begins at 4:26 and FH shot at 4:57


Edited by vanjr - 04/09/2019 at 2:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/09/2019 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Well, it's a match, not a technique tutorial, so I doubt there is much of value in captions to translate. My 'plan' was to try what she does and see how far I can get.

I have been copying her FH technique with my LP and this has been a huge improvement. I am not sure why. Gotta keep practicing this. I visualize it as a block/counter with the tip of my blade pointed vertically (Up or north) rather than horizontally. 

Are you describing her FH shots with LP? I thought these looked more like 'horizontal swipes', but could be wrong.

Her LP blocks on BH are much more vertical, though, and I've been experimenting with these too, somewhat successfully (but it's very hard to go against ingrained habits, especially in matches). One of my theories why having a blade more vertical with tip pointing up is good - better control with wrist and easier re-direction. If it makes any sense...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/09/2019 at 2:57pm
my suggestion:
play with the equipment that you enjoy most playing with.
forget about rating.

eventually, as years go by, you will understand that it's the same to be 1600, 1800, or 2000.
nothing changes, it's just a number.
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