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Way to early U.S. Nationals entry count

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    Posted: 04/04/2019 at 1:14am
Currently 72 entries (36 from California) from 20 states.  Rating event eligibility date deadline in April 11th. Early bird entry deadline May 6th. Final entry deadline May 20th
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Some actual relevant information. For those still looking to book their room for the Nationals I found prestigia.com had the Westgate for 32.05 a night (plus resort fee).

And for trivial information, currently 95 entries from 21 states.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 8:03am
I'll probably sign up but just for the OPEN.. No prize money in the rating or age events.. :-(

Edited by Pushblocker - 04/15/2019 at 5:12pm
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Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

I'll probably sign up but just for the OPEN.. No price money in the rating or age events.. :-(

If your going to spend lots of money for airfare and hotel, why not spend a few extra dollars for more events?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

I'll probably sign up but just for the OPEN.. No price money in the rating or age events.. :-(

If your going to spend lots of money for airfare and hotel, why not spend a few extra dollars for more events?
Out of principle, I won't enter events without prize money. I will also likely be travelling with my family and I only need to dedicate 1 day for playing if I just play the open as it's unlikely that I'll advance from my RR group. I will engage into other activities with my family in and around Vegas... Potentially Grand Canyon again and other places..


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/15/2019 at 5:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 2:29pm
Can someone make prediction of entry counts this year National? If less than 500, we don't want to spend money to be there. Local tournaments are much more enjoyable and competitive. And more important, they do have cash or trophy prizes. Within less than 1.5 month to go, only 108 entries.

Edited by mentortt - 04/12/2019 at 2:35pm
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Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

Can someone make prediction of entry counts this year National? If less than 500, we don't want to spend money to be there. Local tournaments are much more enjoyable and competitive. And more important, they do have cash or trophy prizes. Within less than 1.5 month to go, only 108 entries.
I'd guess between 700 and 800.. 
While the overall format has improved, the lack of prize money in age and ratings divisions will keep many away.


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/15/2019 at 5:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 3:03pm
I checked yesterday's ratings list. Seems it has 7000+ not expired USATT members in US. I really doubt 10% of paid members will be there. 
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I think we'll see close to 700.
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Prize money for men’s and women’s singles is an embarrassment. Let’s assume you’re a world class player, is it even worth the round trip plane tickets and a week long hotel stay for the opportunity to win a top prize of $3000? Anything less than 1st or 2nd and you’re not even covering your expenses. With not having to pay CEO wages for the last few months you’d think there’d be some extra money around that they could throw in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

Prize money for men’s and women’s singles is an embarrassment. Let’s assume you’re a world class player, is it even worth the round trip plane tickets and a week long hotel stay for the opportunity to win a top prize of $3000? Anything less than 1st or 2nd and you’re not even covering your expenses. With not having to pay CEO wages for the last few months you’d think there’d be some extra money around that they could throw in.

In most countries the National Champion makes 0$.  They play for the pride of being a National Champion.

There are many wealthy players who could donate 20,000+ to be used as prize money.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kyle90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

Prize money for men’s and women’s singles is an embarrassment. Let’s assume you’re a world class player, is it even worth the round trip plane tickets and a week long hotel stay for the opportunity to win a top prize of $3000? Anything less than 1st or 2nd and you’re not even covering your expenses. With not having to pay CEO wages for the last few months you’d think there’d be some extra money around that they could throw in.

In most countries the National Champion makes 0$.  They play for the pride of being a National Champion.

There are many wealthy players who could donate 20,000+ to be used as prize money.



We have very talented junior players. Our main problem is getting them to continue playing professionally. Offering some serious prize money surely would help the cause. Also, the fact that prize money has actually gone down significantly since we hired on a higher paid CEO is not a good look at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 10:57pm
It looks good if the higher paid CEO brought in more money for the juniors.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2019 at 8:51am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

Prize money for men’s and women’s singles is an embarrassment. Let’s assume you’re a world class player, is it even worth the round trip plane tickets and a week long hotel stay for the opportunity to win a top prize of $3000? Anything less than 1st or 2nd and you’re not even covering your expenses. With not having to pay CEO wages for the last few months you’d think there’d be some extra money around that they could throw in.

In most countries the National Champion makes 0$.  They play for the pride of being a National Champion.

There are many wealthy players who could donate 20,000+ to be used as prize money.


They have big sponsorship. No one is playing for free. 
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Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

Prize money for men’s and women’s singles is an embarrassment. Let’s assume you’re a world class player, is it even worth the round trip plane tickets and a week long hotel stay for the opportunity to win a top prize of $3000? Anything less than 1st or 2nd and you’re not even covering your expenses. With not having to pay CEO wages for the last few months you’d think there’d be some extra money around that they could throw in.

In most countries the National Champion makes 0$.  They play for the pride of being a National Champion.

There are many wealthy players who could donate 20,000+ to be used as prize money.
They have big sponsorship. No one is playing for free. 

Our Nationals are more of a fun tournament for everyone than a true National Championship.  Because we're so small, sponsorship's are almost impossible to get.

I once talked to a potential sponsor for one of my small events (about the size of the Nationals) and he told me that he could sponsor something at a local large church and get a more loyal following.

Until we can get some fans we don't have much of a chance of getting a sponsor.
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Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:


If your going to spend lots of money for airfare and hotel, why not spend a few extra dollars for more events?
Out of principle, I won't enter events without price money. 
[/QUOTE]

LOL   How much does a tennis player at the same rating level as you make or even a NBA -D league player ?  Not much I think

Unless you are referring to more equitable distribution of wealth ? and where every participant gets a prize ? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 7:25am
Originally posted by Thuro_Wexston Thuro_Wexston wrote:

LOL   How much does a tennis player at the same rating level as you make or even a NBA -D league player ?  Not much I think

Unless you are referring to more equitable distribution of wealth ? and where every participant gets a prize ? 

Let's just compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges..


Let's look for example at the Westchester Open in New York.
 U-2500... $40 to enter... $300 prize money in the U2500.. $35 to enter the U-2350 and $200 for the winner...  $35 to enter the U2200 and $150 for the winner.. There is even prize money in the U2050... $125..   Furthermore, at my playing level, I would even get paid to play league in Europe. 

2

Under 2500

RR

SUN

10:00 AM

$40

$300

$150

$75

-

32

3

Under 2350

RR

SUN

3:30 PM

$35

$200

$100

$50

-

32

4

Under 2200

RR

SUN

12:00 PM

$35

$150

$75

$30

-

48

5

Under 2050

RR

SUN

2:00 PM 

$30

$125

$65

-

-

32



Here is another example from the Broward TTC Tournament last weekend..
03Under 240004/13/20194:30 p.m.$ 400$ 200  
04Under 220004/13/201912:00 p.m.$ 200$ 100  
05Under 200004/13/20193:30 p.m.$ 100$ 50  
06Under 180004/13/20199:30 a.m.$ 100$ 50  
07Under 160004/13/20192:00 p.m.$ 100$ 50  
08Under 140004/13/201911:30 a.m.$ 100$ 50  



Edited by Pushblocker - 04/15/2019 at 5:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 7:42am
I suspect Westchester and Broward do not have some of the costs Open/Nationals have to deal with, namely venue rental, floor installation etc. So, they can dedicate more money to prize pool. 

I guess they could still offer 1st place prize, but then with so many events it starts to eat into the budget, which might bring the question of why there are so many events too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 7:56am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

I suspect Westchester and Broward do not have some of the costs Open/Nationals have to deal with, namely venue rental, floor installation etc. So, they can dedicate more money to prize pool. 

I guess they could still offer 1st place prize, but then with so many events it starts to eat into the budget, which might bring the question of why there are so many events too.
Both, the US Open and the US Nationals used to have prize money in the ratings and age events. 
There really is no need for all courts to have all tables on rubberized flooring. That's a waste of money. Look at the North American Team Championship.. Only Div 1 and Div2 play on the rubberized flooring and the remaining divisions on concrete.. There's nothing wrong with concrete.. I'd rather play on concrete with prize money than playing on rubberized flooring without. I'm not suggesting that they should pay the first 16 in each event..  They should at least pay the first 4. I'm against the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.. Most of those events have over 100 entries and the chance to get into the top 4 in any event is not easy. However, considering that the lower rated players <2400  are the ones who actually pay most of the money towards the total revenue, so there should be at least some small chance for some of them to recover their investment.
I'm actually delighted that they allow anyone to enter the OPEN category unlike the US Open.. This is the only reason that I will likely enter the tournament (if I can get off work). It's not like I actually have a chance to win, it's more about the principle that I'm allowed to compete for the money that me and 100's of other players paid for..


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/15/2019 at 5:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

...
Both, the US Open and the US Nationals used to have price money in the ratings and age events. 
There really is no need for all courts to have all tables on rubberized flooring. 
...

I get what you are saying, but without seeing the detailed budget breakdown for Nationals/Open it's hard to say what changed: may be hall rental cost went way up, or something else. 

Quite a few people were vocal in the past about desire to play on the red floor - again, hard to say how many people would prefer prize money vs. floor trade-off. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric Fountain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

There really is no need for all courts to have all tables on rubberized flooring. That's a waste of money... I'd rather play on concrete with price money than playing on rubberized flooring without.

Your style is a rooted in place outlier. Last (only) Nationals I went to I not only slipped and fell more than once, but much worse than that I couldn't trust my footing and you start to become scared to even do natural movements and play your game anymore. The red court area felt like a proper tournament while the much larger concrete side felt like a scam. Having full red this time is the only reason I am coming back. I don't know the relative costs involved but it sounds like there is some deal with Joola helping that out a bit, props to all involved.
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No analysis or common sense by USATT on making decisions for this year’s Nationals. Looking at data from tournaments you can see that prize money draws players more than the great playing conditions. There are plenty of places that have nice flooring but don’t draw many players due to lack of prize money. 

Offer significant prize money for all events and you will see an increase in entries that will easily cover the differences. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Eric Fountain Eric Fountain wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

There really is no need for all courts to have all tables on rubberized flooring. That's a waste of money... I'd rather play on concrete with price money than playing on rubberized flooring without.

Your style is a rooted in place outlier. Last (only) Nationals I went to I not only slipped and fell more than once, but much worse than that I couldn't trust my footing and you start to become scared to even do natural movements and play your game anymore. The red court area felt like a proper tournament while the much larger concrete side felt like a scam. Having full red this time is the only reason I am coming back. I don't know the relative costs involved but it sounds like there is some deal with Joola helping that out a bit, props to all involved.
You have to use the proper shoes for the surface. My shoes grip better on Concrete than they do on wood flooring... which is the most common flooring at TT tournaments. The NA Teams have always had concrete floors for Div. 3 to ???
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Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

No analysis or common sense by USATT on making decisions for this year’s Nationals. Looking at data from tournaments you can see that prize money draws players more than the great playing conditions. There are plenty of places that have nice flooring but don’t draw many players due to lack of prize money. 

Offer significant prize money for all events and you will see an increase in entries that will easily cover the differences. 
100%.. Look at the Meiklejohn tournament.. Slippery wood floors, small courts (and not enough of them), horrible lighting etc, yet, there's a great turnout every year..
They have good prize money in most classes, including ratings doubles.. Players love the fact that you can get good price money in doubles events.. Tournament is packed every single year despite only being open to age 40+


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/15/2019 at 5:16pm
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Prize money/no prize money, that is one issue.
 
I have stopped playing on bare concrete. Your tournament on concrete=me not entering, regardless of anything else. It's the grip plus the total lack of give. Never found a shoe that could compensate.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Prize money/no prize money, that is one issue.
 
I have stopped playing on bare concrete. Your tournament on concrete=me not entering, regardless of anything else. It's the grip plus the total lack of give. Never found a shoe that could compensate.
 
jfolsen
The tournament with the largest numbers of entries plays 90% of it's matches on concrete, so I doubt that the majority of players see the concrete floor as a reason not to play.. About 1 out of 7 active USATT members play the NA Teams...


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/15/2019 at 1:48pm
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We joined both US open and US NA team. The differences are not only concrete and flooring. US open has a great playing hall in Orlando. But most of tables are empty on Friday and Saturday. Only 1/4 of table is active used. It is clearly waste of money. For US NA team event, almost all tables available has been used. By the way, US NA team event also have little or none cash reward. Is it possible to restrict US National and US open from one week to three or four days? It will save USATT a lot of money and save player money for hotel also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Prize money/no prize money, that is one issue.
 
I have stopped playing on bare concrete. Your tournament on concrete=me not entering, regardless of anything else. It's the grip plus the total lack of give. Never found a shoe that could compensate.
 
jfolsen
The tournament with the largest numbers of entries plays 90% of it's matches on concrete, so I doubt that the majority of players see the concrete floor as a reason not to play.. About 1 out of 7 active USATT members play the NA Teams...
 
I live 30 minutes from the NA Teams. I go to the tournament, but no longer play in it. My knees just won't take 3 days on concrete.
 
For you it's prize money. For me it's concrete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

We joined both US open and US NA team. The differences are not only concrete and flooring. US open has a great playing hall in Orlando. But most of tables are empty on Friday and Saturday. Only 1/4 of table is active used. It is clearly waste of money. For US NA team event, almost all tables available has been used. By the way, US NA team event also have little or none cash reward. Is it possible to restrict US National and US open from one week to three or four days? It will save USATT a lot of money and save player money for hotel also.
At the NA teams, at least teams seeded as Div 3 (21xx level average) have the THEORETICAL chance for the $10k prize money while at the US Open, you were not even allowed to enter the OPEN, meaning 0.0% chance of winning the top price money.



Edited by Pushblocker - 04/15/2019 at 5:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Prize money/no prize money, that is one issue.
 
I have stopped playing on bare concrete. Your tournament on concrete=me not entering, regardless of anything else. It's the grip plus the total lack of give. Never found a shoe that could compensate.
 
jfolsen
The tournament with the largest numbers of entries plays 90% of it's matches on concrete, so I doubt that the majority of players see the concrete floor as a reason not to play.. About 1 out of 7 active USATT members play the NA Teams...
 
I live 30 minutes from the NA Teams. I go to the tournament, but no longer play in it. My knees just won't take 3 days on concrete.
 
For you it's prize money. For me it's concrete.
I understand.. Your physical health is of course more important..
I'm lucky that I currently have no issues with me knees even though I do have a torn meniscus since 2015 but it currently does not bother me.. I keep my fingers crossed..
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
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