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Very important question about booster

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    Posted: 04/10/2019 at 4:26pm
Question:

If you boost and then take off all the residue of the initial glue layer/booster, do you still get the same effect when gluing onto the blade?

I did this with one of my Fastarcs do reduce the weight, but will this cause any adverse effects? Or it is purely the dome that gives the booster effect?

Would like a detailed answer to this as I'm confused thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 5:18pm
Some people think that a thick coat of WBG may act as a zipping base adding some slingshot effect, the ball makes the WBG extend back at contact point and then that extension slingshots along the swing. I am not sure at all but in TT we often see some very small factors having huge effects on play so it could be true.

I was mentioning that factor thinking of the "super priming" threads back in the days. Those threads contain value even though they were based on rubber cement. It all sounds like a rabbit hole though.

This being said and to answer more directly, the dome is what makes the boosting and if all glue residue are gone and the dome is there, your boosting is there; if that was not the case, it would mean the WBG glue keeps the boosting in place and prevents it to escape through the wood which does not sound right.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Some people think that a thick coat of WBG may act as a zipping base adding some slingshot effect, the ball makes the WBG extend back at contact point and then that extension slingshots along the swing. I am not sure at all but in TT we often see some very small factors having huge effects on play so it could be true.

I was mentioning that factor thinking of the "super priming" threads back in the days. Those threads contain value even though they were based on rubber cement. It all sounds like a rabbit hole though.

This being said and to answer more directly, the dome is what makes the boosting and if all glue residue are gone and the dome is there, your boosting is there; if that was not the case, it would mean the WBG glue keeps the boosting in place and prevents it to escape through the wood which does not sound right.


Hi fatt,

I had a different thought which was, the booster liquid still has to be present for there to be an effect.
So when I take the glue layer (with the booster liquid solifieed on it), the boost effect disappears.

Basically, I messed up a glue job so I had to take off the layer.

So if it's only the dome that causes the boosting effect: shouldn't all boosters have the same effect in essence?

But I do agree with you as I still feel the boost with my Fastarc.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 6:19pm
one booster makes 2 different sponges react differently.
2 different boosters make 2 equal sponges react differently.
different boosters make different sponges react differently.

The way I see it, the sponge is what contains the booster, it becomes sponge on steroids, the pores are loaded with booster and are inflated so when they compress, they kick back stronger than without the booster. Booster solidified with the glue (never thought of that) is part of the glue and does not react with the sponge anymore so when taking the glue off the sponge, the boosting within the sponge stays the same. I may overlook details but trying to keep things simple, I prefer not digging any deeper.


Edited by fatt - 04/10/2019 at 6:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

one booster makes 2 different sponges react differently.
2 different boosters make 2 equal sponges react differently.
different boosters make different sponges react differently.

The way I see it, the sponge is what contains the booster, it becomes sponge on steroids, the pores are loaded with booster and are inflated so when they compress, they kick back stronger than without the booster. Booster solidified with the glue (never thought of that) is part of the glue and does not react with the sponge anymore so when taking the glue off the sponge, the boosting within the sponge stays the same. I may overlook details but trying to keep things simple, I prefer not digging any deeper.
No no, that is a perfect explanation. So it is actually the sponge which 'contains' the booster - and the more domed it is, the more boosted it is! 
Just want to ask if anyone can validate this although it's probably true!

So a hypothetical example that the same rubber is treated with the different boosters, but the dome/reaction is 50% curved, the rubber will hypothetically be boosted by the same 'amount'?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

one booster makes 2 different sponges react differently.
2 different boosters make 2 equal sponges react differently.
different boosters make different sponges react differently.

The way I see it, the sponge is what contains the booster, it becomes sponge on steroids, the pores are loaded with booster and are inflated so when they compress, they kick back stronger than without the booster. Booster solidified with the glue (never thought of that) is part of the glue and does not react with the sponge anymore so when taking the glue off the sponge, the boosting within the sponge stays the same. I may overlook details but trying to keep things simple, I prefer not digging any deeper.
The only issue I have with this is that, why doesn't everyone just take the glue layer off after boosting to reduce the weight of the bat? Especially the CNT/professional scene? 

I see them glue it with the booster/glue layer still there - maybe they like the extra weight but idk, that's why I asked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 7:26pm
Some people think that the boosting process is easier to go through if we apply the wbg 1st. I forget the rationale, probably because deep inside I consider the idea total BS and I don't want to even think about it. Maybe they think it will make the WBG more even across the sponge, maybe they think the booster will penetrate the sponge slower so it won't damage it...again I think some people with credibility said something once and everybody followed by validating the crap in an echo chamber like here.
 
I stopped boosting a log time ago but when I was I did not care about gluing 1st and all the problems I had were incompetence, not because I needed to apply the WBG 1st.

If you boost the G-1, talk to rocketman222, he boosts it VERY LIGHTLY. In fact, the best results I ever got with G-1 and FTL is with 2 VERY LIGHT coats of booster, one coat being just what it takes to make the whole sponge humid and light reflective and no more. It's harder than we think because the sport is about doing that everywhere evenly. After 2 coats and 2 days, the morning of the 3rd day you can hold your rubber sponge up with 3 fingers under the topsheet and when you move those 3 fingers up and down an inch or 2, the whole rubber woobles as if it was alive. YOU DO NOT WANT A DOME WITH THE G-1 at least that's just me, I used to boost it so it woobles like a new T05 when I do the same wooble test and for the G-1, that happens when the reverse dome is gone (sponge up, corners going up) but the dome has not started coming up yet, 2 very light coats are enough for that. Of course ymmv, I've seen you playing and your speed might handle more boosting.


Edited by fatt - 04/10/2019 at 7:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hleett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 8:06pm
Does the booster have any damaging effect on the blade over a long time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Some people think that the boosting process is easier to go through if we apply the wbg 1st. I forget the rationale, probably because deep inside I consider the idea total BS and I don't want to even think about it. Maybe they think it will make the WBG more even across the sponge, maybe they think the booster will penetrate the sponge slower so it won't damage it...again I think some people with credibility said something once and everybody followed by validating the crap in an echo chamber like here.
 
I stopped boosting a log time ago but when I was I did not care about gluing 1st and all the problems I had were incompetence, not because I needed to apply the WBG 1st.

If you boost the G-1, talk to rocketman222, he boosts it VERY LIGHTLY. In fact, the best results I ever got with G-1 and FTL is with 2 VERY LIGHT coats of booster, one coat being just what it takes to make the whole sponge humid and light reflective and no more. It's harder than we think because the sport is about doing that everywhere evenly. After 2 coats and 2 days, the morning of the 3rd day you can hold your rubber sponge up with 3 fingers under the topsheet and when you move those 3 fingers up and down an inch or 2, the whole rubber woobles as if it was alive. YOU DO NOT WANT A DOME WITH THE G-1 at least that's just me, I used to boost it so it woobles like a new T05 when I do the same wooble test and for the G-1, that happens when the reverse dome is gone (sponge up, corners going up) but the dome has not started coming up yet, 2 very light coats are enough for that. Of course ymmv, I've seen you playing and your speed might handle more boosting.
Hey fatt,

Yeah idk I think the glue layer just makes it easier and stops a bit of absorption, for the same inevitable result to happen anyway. I just took the glue layer off both T05H and G1, and it still feels the same without the glue/booster residue!

I did one medium/thick layer on the T05H and 2 thin/medium layers on the G1. Both feel extremely nice and not overboosted, so props to me for guessing the best amount of booster haha.
The T05H got a slight dome, and the G1 was opposite to domed (maybe due to slight shrinkage) so when I boosted it, it went back to normal/very very slight dome.

I think I will boost like this in future - one glue layer and then put booster on - then take off all the residue - then 2 glue layers like usual. 

I have boosted a new Nittaku H3N Turbo Orange with 2 thick layer and it's curled quite significantly (definitely not reverse dome though). I'd like to see if that plays nice, I'll update you when it's undomed enough for me to glue!


Edited by SmackDAT - 04/10/2019 at 8:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 8:51pm
Pros don't take the glue layer off, because the racket plays better with booster in the glue. With booster in the glue (i.e. from applying booster over the glue layer), the layer of glue becomes "softer," and the rubber "bites" the ball better. In contrast, if there is no booster within the glue (i.e. applying booster before glue), the rubber would feel "harder" after boosting, and the ball would leave the racket more quickly, resulting in less of a "bite" effect. 

So regarding the original question, peeling off the initial boosting layer does not change the quality of the boosted sponge itself, as booster has already penetrated the sponge. But the racket feeling changes, due to the aforementioned reasons. So the answer is NO, you do not get the same effect if you were to peel off that initial layer.

Pros really want that layer of booster-mixed-in-glue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by MLfan MLfan wrote:

Pros don't take the glue layer off, because the racket plays better with booster in the glue. With booster in the glue (i.e. from applying booster over the glue layer), the layer of glue becomes "softer," and the rubber "bites" the ball better. In contrast, if there is no booster within the glue (i.e. applying booster before glue), the rubber would feel "harder" after boosting, and the ball would leave the racket more quickly, resulting in less of a "bite" effect. 

So regarding the original question, peeling off the initial boosting layer does not change the quality of the boosted sponge itself, as booster has already penetrated the sponge. But the racket feeling changes, due to the aforementioned reasons. So the answer is NO, you do not get the same effect if you were to peel off that initial layer.

Pros really want that layer of booster-mixed-in-glue.
Is there is a significant difference if the glue layer is taken off? Seems to be fine for me without the initial boosting layer, but I can see why pros leave it on - have you tried both ways of boosting MLfan?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2019 at 9:16pm
By using Phoenix Reviver, there is not much difference bwt having residue glue or not, however:
- If you take off all booster-glue, then your bat is ~4grs lighter, it could be a huge advantage for your flexibility. -1 for blocking.
- If you let the glue on, then you could find your stroke is more powerful due to the heavy head. It could be quite easy to block or counter attack as the ball stays longer on the topsheet.
- If you glue it straight away when it is still domed, especially H3, then you will get speed glue feeling but it would fade out after 1 week. Of course u need good glue. Nittaku FineZip could do this job.
- I have found if I glue the rubber early, it could lead to inconsistency and feeling change (from good to normal). If i have to practice for a month to gain my skills back, then play important tournament, I would wait for it to be flat (it takes 1-2 weeks if it is Phoenix Reviver).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2019 at 10:20am
Originally posted by MLfan MLfan wrote:

Pros don't take the glue layer off, because the racket plays better with booster in the glue. With booster in the glue (i.e. from applying booster over the glue layer), the layer of glue becomes "softer," and the rubber "bites" the ball better. In contrast, if there is no booster within the glue (i.e. applying booster before glue), the rubber would feel "harder" after boosting, and the ball would leave the racket more quickly, resulting in less of a "bite" effect. 

So regarding the original question, peeling off the initial boosting layer does not change the quality of the boosted sponge itself, as booster has already penetrated the sponge. But the racket feeling changes, due to the aforementioned reasons. So the answer is NO, you do not get the same effect if you were to peel off that initial layer.

Pros really want that layer of booster-mixed-in-glue.
OK that would mean what we wrote back in the days about "super priming" (with both rubber cement and wbg) is correct: a thick coat of glue can zip back and forth at contact point and add a slingshot effect (and of course it would be better if that thick coat of WBG is loaded with booster so it's tender and more elastic) , similar to what a tender topsheet would do. I believe it but frankly, to produce that it takes 5 grams of WBG of each side and then we add the booster on top of that? no thanks! I definitely believe that a thick coat of glue humid with booster will influence the characteristics of the rubber, there is no doubt about it, I understand why pros would do it but at my level it would be ridiculous, especially with the head heaviness that comes with the little advantage. I do not even count the eventual variations in results when doing it at the amateur level.

I think the average club player between 1800 and 2200 who likes to move rubbers from blade to blade should do the following on a bare rubber after having boosted it or not:

-2 thin coats of WBG
-1 coat of paper cement

Put 2 thin coats of paper cement on the blade and you are done. 

That method presents the following advantages: 

-we never have water in contact with the blade. 
-the sponge can be cleaned back to its original state in one shot, all the glue comes off of it in one blob.
-we always get the same predictable result (!!!)
-it is very inexpensive if we use Tear Mender (Copydex in UK) and Best Test paper cement diluted with Bestine in a 75/25 ratio.

Note about Best Test paper cement and Bestine mix: those contains a lot of VOC and it's a good thing so the wood plies don't get damaged by water but after applying one coat of it over the WBG on the sponge, the rubber expands a bit so let it rest and apply on the blade the day after so you have cancelled all VOC out overnight, we want any expansion due to VOC to be gone.

Illegal? yes if we blindly follow the rule, no if we honestly adhere to the spirit of the rule.



Edited by fatt - 04/11/2019 at 10:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2019 at 11:05am
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Originally posted by MLfan MLfan wrote:

Pros don't take the glue layer off, because the racket plays better with booster in the glue. With booster in the glue (i.e. from applying booster over the glue layer), the layer of glue becomes "softer," and the rubber "bites" the ball better. In contrast, if there is no booster within the glue (i.e. applying booster before glue), the rubber would feel "harder" after boosting, and the ball would leave the racket more quickly, resulting in less of a "bite" effect. 

So regarding the original question, peeling off the initial boosting layer does not change the quality of the boosted sponge itself, as booster has already penetrated the sponge. But the racket feeling changes, due to the aforementioned reasons. So the answer is NO, you do not get the same effect if you were to peel off that initial layer.

Pros really want that layer of booster-mixed-in-glue.
Is there is a significant difference if the glue layer is taken off? Seems to be fine for me without the initial boosting layer, but I can see why pros leave it on - have you tried both ways of boosting MLfan?

I have tried both ways, and I also happen to like my racket more when there's some booster in the glue. To me, there is quite a significant difference, esp. with "biting" the ball and not having it leave my racket so quickly. But I think this may be more of an individual thing, and can depend on play style as well. If you tend to hit the ball more, then you may prefer glue without booster in it. I think I like having the booster within my glue because I feel like I have more control with the ball, and that the racket feels like it has more "base" power when I loop.

So the answer to your question is that it depends haha. I also don't mind the "extra weight" that comes with boosting on the glue, although it may just be that I'm used to it.
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