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ITTF ranking points assignment.

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    Posted: 04/10/2019 at 6:41pm
Asian Cup winner gets 1876 ranking points.  (Fan Zhendong won.)
Panam Championships winner gets 1800 ranking points.  (Jha Kanak won.)

If you take a look of the players in both events, you will know which event is far more difficult to win.
Yet, the ranking points difference is so small.



Edited by skip3119 - 04/10/2019 at 6:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2019 at 10:39pm
On women's side:

2018 Asian Cup winner gets 1914 ranking points. (Zhu Yuling won).
2018 Oceania Cup winner also gets 1914 ranking points. (Lay Jian Fang won).

No discrimination based on geography. 



Edited by skip3119 - 04/11/2019 at 11:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 12:00am
This is a known issue yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 8:52am
It's been 1+ yr since the new ITTF world ranking system has been in place.  I think the ITTF has been successful in achieving it's primary object: to increase active participation of the top players.  We have especially seen more and more top Chinese/Japanese.  It was a nice surprise to see LSW at a Challenge Plus event, the Portugal Open, and we would have seen Mima Ito, CM, and WMY had Mima Ito not withdrawn.  I do hope this attracts more sponsors.  

Having said that, I think the system needs some tweaks.  As OP mentioned, the points are the same for Continental Cup/Championships are exactly the same for each continent despite the disparity in average playing levels of each continent.  This was discussed at an April 2018 ITTF EC meeting:

9.1 WR points for Continental Events
Mr. Masahiro Maehara asked the EC to reconsider the WR point allocation for the continental Mr. Maehara that if the continental representatives prefer, an official request from the Continental bodies should be received, as ATTU and ETTU were asking ITTF to increase the continental points originally.  With an Official Request, the ITTF will reconsider the point allocation.

One other item I would like the ITTF to reconsider is the additional ranking points given to T2 participants:

Players will earn World Ranking Points, which directly impacts the ITTF World Ranking Standings. These points are awarded as a bonus, in addition to the top 8 results determined by the ITTF World Rankings.

I'm happy for the top 15 players being able to get good prize money at T2 events.  However, I think players not only should earn the right to be in the top 15, but also should work hard to maintain their top 15 ranking.  Although I understand it can't last forever, a player can enter a number of tournaments as a seeded player, lose in the 1st round and still get good points (remember the rule change to drop the half point policy).  This makes it much harder for qualifiers to break into the top 15 when existing top 15 players have some built in protection.  And with the above rule for T2 events, it becomes that much harder, and in my opinion, unfair to those outside the top 15.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 9:49am
The issue about the continental points is a tricky one. What if, hypothetically speaking, Brazil produced a player who was able to compete with the very best and the only reason why he kept not quite reaching the Nr.1 spot on the world ranking's list was because of the extra points the top Chinese player got from winning his continental cup? Would be unfair. 

In the same way, I think if T2 events will give bonus WR points then they need to open up their qualification to everyone. Bye bye old European stalwarts, hello Wang Chuqin


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

The issue about the continental points is a tricky one. What if, hypothetically speaking, Brazil produced a player who was able to compete with the very best and the only reason why he kept not quite reaching the Nr.1 spot on the world ranking's list was because of the extra points the top Chinese player got from winning his continental cup? Would be unfair. 

In the same way, I think if T2 events will give bonus WR points then they need to open up their qualification to everyone. Bye bye old European stalwarts, hello Wang Chuqin

What if he tops number 1 and cant beat the other 4?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 10:05am
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

The issue about the continental points is a tricky one. What if, hypothetically speaking, Brazil produced a player who was able to compete with the very best and the only reason why he kept not quite reaching the Nr.1 spot on the world ranking's list was because of the extra points the top Chinese player got from winning his continental cup? Would be unfair. 

In the same way, I think if T2 events will give bonus WR points then they need to open up their qualification to everyone. Bye bye old European stalwarts, hello Wang Chuqin
I think there are enough World Tour (winner 1800)/World Tour Platinum (winner 2250) events (not to mention Olympics/WTTC/World Cup/WTGF) so that if the Brazilian was truly number one he/she can still be number one player in the *world* despite being in the Pan American *continental* group.  

Now, perhaps it can be tweaked a bit such as: Asian 1700pts, Europe 1600pts, Pan Am 1400pts, etc. (or something like that) so that a Continental event winner is not equal in points to a World Tour event winner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 10:08am
I don't think subtle differences in rating matters. Kanak is ranked 38 now. He will be in main draw for incoming WTTC. If he can win the first two matches. he will be top 32 which means he will not be ranking overrated.  Otherwise, he will be overrated. ITTF ranking will drop next month. 

Edited by mentortt - 04/12/2019 at 10:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 11:31am
Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

I don't think subtle differences in rating matters. Kanak is ranked 38 now. He will be in main draw for incoming WTTC. If he can win the first two matches. he will be top 32 which means he will not be ranking overrated.  Otherwise, he will be overrated. ITTF ranking will drop next month. 

Kanak deserves his ranking. 38th is about right for him. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 11:47am

I think that the issues do not outweigh the benefits and that the overrepresented players from other areas give them an incentive to play. If we want the World Cup to only feature the best players okay, but then the incentive to develop TT in other regions goes down.  But I get the fairness argument,  just open to other considerations. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 12:00pm
A lot of elite players don't attend ITTF tournaments because of funding issue. In that way, ITTF ranking from 50-200 may not be accurate. By the way, I hope he can be top 32. He is very successful in US continent.
 
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

I don't think subtle differences in rating matters. Kanak is ranked 38 now. He will be in main draw for incoming WTTC. If he can win the first two matches. he will be top 32 which means he will not be ranking overrated.  Otherwise, he will be overrated. ITTF ranking will drop next month. 
Kanak deserves his ranking. 38th is about right for him. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 12:53pm
I think it's a tough call for the ITTF.  It does, after all, represent the entire world of countries so it does have to incentivize players from less represented countries to actively participate.  

This does create a bit of distortion in rankings.  Take, for example, Kanak's results (WR#38) and Wang Chuqin's results (WR#92).  Look, I'm a fan of Kanak and wish him nothing but the best.  But if I were to take an honest assessment at his results on the World Tour compared to WCQ, I would have to conclude that WCQ should be ranked higher than Kanak.  Now I can compute the points and understand the mechanics of why he is higher, but it just doesn't pass the smell test for me.

But I do concede that the ITTF wants and should globalize TT so I can understand why things are they way they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 2:08pm
The new world rankings are a complete joke. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

I think it's a tough call for the ITTF.  It does, after all, represent the entire world of countries so it does have to incentivize players from less represented countries to actively participate.  

This does create a bit of distortion in rankings.  Take, for example, Kanak's results (WR#38) and Wang Chuqin's results (WR#92).  Look, I'm a fan of Kanak and wish him nothing but the best.  But if I were to take an honest assessment at his results on the World Tour compared to WCQ, I would have to conclude that WCQ should be ranked higher than Kanak.  Now I can compute the points and understand the mechanics of why he is higher, but it just doesn't pass the smell test for me.

But I do concede that the ITTF wants and should globalize TT so I can understand why things are they way they are.

 
pongfugrasshopper,  This comment is just unfair to Kanak Jha. WCQ is not just better than Kanak, he is probably better than half of the top 30  ranked players. We all know The ittf ranking is distorted and should be taken with a pinch of salt. Do you think players like Hobesohn, Cca, Ueda Jin, Wct, Frankziska, Falck  (who are all ranked In the top 30 ) are better than WCQ ? I don't think So ! 



Edited by jackwong23 - 04/12/2019 at 2:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2019 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

I think it's a tough call for the ITTF.  It does, after all, represent the entire world of countries so it does have to incentivize players from less represented countries to actively participate.  

This does create a bit of distortion in rankings.  Take, for example, Kanak's results (WR#38) and Wang Chuqin's results (WR#92).  Look, I'm a fan of Kanak and wish him nothing but the best.  But if I were to take an honest assessment at his results on the World Tour compared to WCQ, I would have to conclude that WCQ should be ranked higher than Kanak.  Now I can compute the points and understand the mechanics of why he is higher, but it just doesn't pass the smell test for me.

But I do concede that the ITTF wants and should globalize TT so I can understand why things are they way they are.

 
pongfugrasshopper,  This comment is just unfair to Kanak Jha. WCQ is not just better than Kanak, he is probably better than half of the top 30  ranked players. We all know The ittf ranking is distorted and should be taken with a pinch of salt. Do you think players like Hobesohn, Cca, Ueda Jin, Wct, Frankziska, Falck  (who are all ranked In the top 30 ) are better than WCQ ? I don't think So ! 

You are right that I could have used anyone of those guys as well as many others in my comparison.  And in no way am I disrespecting Kanak, it's just that he fits the bill of being Pan Am Championship winner and invited to Men's World Cup which is relevant to the discussion regarding Continental Group ranking points.  Also, both guys are similar in terms of being prominent names and just starting their senior careers.  

The other thing that adds to the distortion is that Chinese players do not get many points when playing World Team events as they usually win 3-0 so don't need to play anyone extra.  Whereas, good players on weak teams can rack up points beating up on weaker players.  Take for example (and in no way disrespecting) CIC, a very good player, but she racked up 2250 points playing at the WTTTC winning 9 matches against weaker opponents.  2250 points is equivalent to winning an ITTF Platinum event.


Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 04/12/2019 at 2:49pm
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