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Why do ONLY choppers need larger blades ?

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Thuro_Wexston View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04/14/2019 at 12:04pm

I am told it is because it gives more spin (they mean backspin). So if it gives more backspin, should the logic not follow that it will also give more topspin as well ?  

     I have heard the argument that compact size allows for quicker hand & wrist movements for attackers close to the table (choppers are generally away from table) . Ok this may make sense for short-pips close to the table block & smash type players but these days everyone (except He Zhewen of course, who flat out refuses to leave the table at any cost & probably still be that way when he is 120 years old LOL)  at top levels using reversed rubber play away (if not as far away as choppers) from the tables. So should they also not use larger size blades to get more topspin as well ?   The last basement player using inverted rubber at world class level was Roland Vimi of Slovakia who beat 1988 Olympic Gold medalist Yo Nam Kyu at 1993 World's amd maybe that crazy Desmond Douglas.

       Or is it that you use more contact surface only when you are under the ball (for chopping) and not over the ball (as in looping) ?  This does not make sense because I hear you want to brush either for chopping for looping with maximum dwell time. 

          I have seen Tibhar & Joola sell large rackets but with cheap rubbers which makes it harder to teat them because there are no large quality rubbers to put on these blades just to test for laughs. (i am not a high level professional player or something but would be fun to test the spin) . Does anyone know where you can buy larger sheets of rubbers  (like 180 mm by 180 mm  ?  Yes I know I am approaching tennis racket sizes LOL)  

 

 




Edited by Thuro_Wexston - 04/14/2019 at 1:07pm
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Having a larger blade increases the weight substantially. A chopper who most likely uses long pips on one side can afford to have this extra mass, since the rubber is lighter. However, an offensive player with double inverted could suffer from this increased mass. This is probably a big reason offensive players don't use oversized blades, since many prefer blades between 80 and 90 grams and oversized rackets for choppers (such as the BTY Joo Sae Hyuk) are often well over 90 grams.
Another consideration (though likely inconsequential) is that choppers swing downwards - that is, in the direction the force of gravity is acting - as opposed to upwards. The extra mass of the racket and the force of gravity helps a chopper complete a longer stroke in a shorter time, meaning the momentum of the racket is increased (since it depends on mass and velocity). This would help choppers maximize spin on the ball. An offensive player would have to struggle against gravity while executing their strokes, which would lower the speed at which they can swing and possibly the spin they produce. This is not desirable for offensive players
The surface area of the blade also comes into play in another probably inconsequential consideration - air resistance. A chopper swings perpendicular to the area vector of the blade while chopping, meaning the side of the blade is the surface cutting through the air. The surface area of the side is very small, making air resistance negligible. However, offensive players swing more parallel to the area vector, meaning the face of the blade is what is mostly cutting through the air. This means air resistance has a greater effect on the offensive player, and the increased surface area of a chopper's blade would also increase the force opposing the offensive players' stroke.
The surface area does not really help with brushing the ball or with dwell time. The ball is only in contact with the racket for a fraction of a second, no matter what racket is used. The ball contacts and leaves the racket almost instantly. The only benefit one would have using a larger racket for offensive play is that it makes it easier to make contact with the ball. However, if you hit a ball with a large racket that you miss with a small one, you are definitely hitting in the wrong part of the racket. This would make the shot weak, and it would be better to just practice and hit the ball in the desired part more consistently.
I'm sure there are other more important things to consider that I have missed, but these are the few that I have come up with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 1:34pm
Setup weights dictate the size. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thuro_Wexston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Chairman Meow Chairman Meow wrote:

Having a larger blade increases the weight substantially. A chopper who most likely uses long pips on one side can afford to have this extra mass, since the rubber is lighter. However, an offensive player with double inverted could suffer from this increased mass. This is probably a big reason offensive players don't use oversized blades, since many prefer blades between 80 and 90 grams and oversized rackets for choppers (such as the BTY Joo Sae Hyuk) are often well over 90 grams.
Another consideration (though likely inconsequential) is that choppers swing downwards - that is, in the direction the force of gravity is acting - as opposed to upwards. The extra mass of the racket and the force of gravity helps a chopper complete a longer stroke in a shorter time, meaning the momentum of the racket is increased (since it depends on mass and velocity). This would help choppers maximize spin on the ball. An offensive player would have to struggle against gravity while executing their strokes, which would lower the speed at which they can swing and possibly the spin they produce. This is not desirable for offensive players
The surface area of the blade also comes into play in another probably inconsequential consideration - air resistance. A chopper swings perpendicular to the area vector of the blade while chopping, meaning the side of the blade is the surface cutting through the air. The surface area of the side is very small, making air resistance negligible. However, offensive players swing more parallel to the area vector, meaning the face of the blade is what is mostly cutting through the air. This means air resistance has a greater effect on the offensive player, and the increased surface area of a chopper's blade would also increase the force opposing the offensive players' stroke.
The surface area does not really help with brushing the ball or with dwell time. The ball is only in contact with the racket for a fraction of a second, no matter what racket is used. The ball contacts and leaves the racket almost instantly. The only benefit one would have using a larger racket for offensive play is that it makes it easier to make contact with the ball. However, if you hit a ball with a large racket that you miss with a small one, you are definitely hitting in the wrong part of the racket. This would make the shot weak, and it would be better to just practice and hit the ball in the desired part more consistently.
I'm sure there are other more important things to consider that I have missed, but these are the few that I have come up with.

For the most part I may agree with you(r theoretical justifications) but from a practical stand-point I am sure from my personal experience that I definitely get lot more spin both TopSpin and BackSpin due to increased dwell-time using a larger blade.  Therefore I would tend think a player playing away from the table will get more TopSpin both in Loops , CounterLoops & especially lobs (your theory of air resistand, while it makes sense, may not be more significant increased dwell time IMO)  

Also I mentioned in my first post , that it is easier to swing with quick movements with a compact head racket. 

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 2:02pm
Larger heads like the discontinued original IF ZLC or the discontinued Matsushita Pro Special can be done under 90 grams and satisfy a 2-wing looper however those blades become head heavy with 2 modern looping boosted rubbers, easily over 50 grams cut. Granted, plenty of looping offensive blades are over 90 grams so the only difference with a larger head blade of same weight would be the weight of the additional rubber which is, for 5mm of wood added all around the blade, no heavier than 6 gr.

For example, if consider:

-0.25g/cm2 rubber (that's a high figure)
-5mm additional wood all around the blade 
-the relevant circumference is about 42cm, from one side of the neck to the other where the rubber starts right above the handle. 

It takes about 4cm chunks to get an additional cm2 (we ignore the curve) at 0.25g each and that is for one rubber only.

42cm / 4-chuncks = 10.5; 10.5-chunks x 0.25 g/cm2 = 2.6g; 2.6g x 2-rubbers = 5.2g.

If we add the additional glue we arrive at about 6 gr added to the setup and that's exaggerated.

Of course we ignored the curvature so the 4cm chunk to get an additional cm2 is an approximation, so were the 0.25g/cm2... the point is there is a niche market for loopers who want a larger head, it is possible to design blades with a larger head, no vibrations and under 90 grams, the additional head size would increase the weight by 6 grams which is not the end of the world. 

I am a fan of larger heads, whether or not it's just in my head, I feel like when they are well done , 1) there are no vibrations. 2) the sweet spot is enlarged, the incoming energy is absorbed a little more, giving better control in blocks. 3) the dwell at contact is higher giving better looping. 4) the short game is improved for all reasons above.

There is no down to it. An additional 6 gr shared all around the head does not give such a head heavy results.

I am waiting for more larger head composite blades offers like the discontinued Matsushita Pro Special or the Victas Matsushita Special, there is a market for them.


Edited by fatt - 04/14/2019 at 2:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 2:34pm
I think larger heads have more vibrations, are slower, and not as crisp (unless the blade itself weighed like 120 grams...) compared to the denser, smaller-headed blades. If you are a blocker or close to the table player, I don't imagine why someone would want a larger blade with all of the above listed attributes.

Liu Song used a joo se hyuk and he attacks just about every ball with this FH close to the table. But again, he has LP OX on the backhand side so the overall weight is kept down. 

I've taken larger blades and cut them down in size. It becomes more direct, less vibrations and faster. 

Which blade did you use fatt that was oversized without vibrations? Perhaps the koji special? I've used that one as well, and while it does have very minimal vibrations, the flex is still pretty high and using my same stroke the ball is quite a bit slower than on a cut down version. I've had a custom over-sized blade created that weighed about 119 grams. It had ZLC in it, koto, kiri and spruce. So a very solid blade, certainly, with low vibrations. As you'd expect, it felt like swinging a mallet! It was made to fit a Liu Song style game of FH loop-kills/blocks/drives and bh LP OX chop blocks near the table. Overall weight was about 185 when all glued up. 


Edited by obesechopper - 04/14/2019 at 2:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 3:25pm
I think defenders style of play is much more based on not missing than offensive players. Of course no one wants to miss, but defendes have a hard time to win points other ways. Those defenders that play further away from the table proably wants to have a heavier blade because this is better for their timing, and they can also play harder with the forehand becuase of the physics. I think these things could be the reason. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

...
Which blade did you use fatt that was oversized without vibrations?
...
the discontinued Butterfly Matsushita Pro Special ALC (89g), discontinued Butterfly Innerforce ZLC 1st model (88g) and the BBC Hinoki Ghost oversized (91g) are my 3 main references when it's about oversized heads that work well with inverted on both sides. I tried more but I can't recall them atm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnopgnipster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Thuro_Wexston Thuro_Wexston wrote:

 Does anyone know where you can buy larger sheets of rubbers  (like 180 mm by 180 mm  ?  Yes I know I am approaching tennis racket sizes LOL)  

 

 


Valor Premier OX is 180mm x 185mm
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Regular:Valor prototype FH-Apollo II & BH-Globe 979 OX

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thuro_Wexston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 9:29pm

[/QUOTE]Valor Premier OX is 180mm x 185mm[/QUOTE]

Hardbat has seen its heyday & it was great when it lasted (read about Bergmann write up at ITTF website) . You will never see another Rozeanu.

So let us move on from this psychosis (hardbat & your charismatic gang leader Reisman RIP) to reality of the sponge-domain

Any places I can buy 180x180 blades,  smooth rubbers & long-pips rubbers ?



Edited by Thuro_Wexston - 04/14/2019 at 9:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 10:11pm
If Gionis can use Korbel  (larger head) for defense, does it mean it is still OK to use BTY Jo Se Hyuk for two-sides offense?

My friend has pips out on BH and still attack well on FH using oversize blade.  I think you can use any blades  to attack, but will it be 100% effective for pure offense, no defense?


Edited by doraemon - 04/15/2019 at 10:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2019 at 12:29pm
shao yu,robert roberts they use oversize blades
and both are attackers 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2019 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

shao yu,robert roberts they use oversize blades
and both are attackers 
what do they use?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2019 at 4:48pm
shao uses old stiga carbon
robert uses donier robert roberts off
ben nisbet sell's them at tabletennisstore.us
rating solid 1000
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Charlie Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2019 at 10:55pm
Image result for giant ping pong rackets
*sigh*
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thuro_Wexston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2019 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by Charlie Brown Charlie Brown wrote:

Image result for giant ping pong rackets

Sorry about duplicate. Unable to delete under posting options. Please delete this reply 


Edited by Thuro_Wexston - 04/17/2019 at 8:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thuro_Wexston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2019 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by Charlie Brown Charlie Brown wrote:

Image result for giant ping pong rackets


Thanks for the ridicule
Obviously you have no respect for the playing styles or racket designs to match their playing styles despite my repeatedly explaining that each human is unique

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avova Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2019 at 8:38pm
Xu Xin uses a larger blade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2019 at 12:16am
The first 3 or 4 or 5 replies were great. All different, all true.
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Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2019 at 2:48am
Gustaf Ericsson uses a clipper for défense and Gionis a 98gr Korbel also for defense.
I know some very good defenders at national level in Belgium who use carbonado 45 or Nittaku acoustic inner carbon for defense. All this blades don't have a particularly large head.

On the other side, 2 of my friends play in second Belgian division using JSH blades with tenergy 25 on the FH and Moristo SP on the backhand. They block with BH and hit with tenergy. Another one plays in the third division with koji spécial blade with 2 dr evil OX..., hardbat style and he hits on everything....



Edited by kakapo - 04/20/2019 at 2:48am
accoustic carbon inner,fastarc G1 max, feint soft 1,5mm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 10:52am
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

The first 3 or 4 or 5 replies were great. All different, all true.

Totally agreed then the rest just went off the rail
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 11:36am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

I think larger heads have more vibrations, are slower, and not as crisp (unless the blade itself weighed like 120 grams...) compared to the denser, smaller-headed blades. If you are a blocker or close to the table player, I don't imagine why someone would want a larger blade with all of the above listed attributes.

Liu Song used a joo se hyuk and he attacks just about every ball with this FH close to the table. But again, he has LP OX on the backhand side so the overall weight is kept down. 

I've taken larger blades and cut them down in size. It becomes more direct, less vibrations and faster. 

Which blade did you use fatt that was oversized without vibrations? Perhaps the koji special? I've used that one as well, and while it does have very minimal vibrations, the flex is still pretty high and using my same stroke the ball is quite a bit slower than on a cut down version. I've had a custom over-sized blade created that weighed about 119 grams. It had ZLC in it, koto, kiri and spruce. So a very solid blade, certainly, with low vibrations. As you'd expect, it felt like swinging a mallet! It was made to fit a Liu Song style game of FH loop-kills/blocks/drives and bh LP OX chop blocks near the table. Overall weight was about 185 when all glued up. 

A large blade has more flexibility  because the thickness / size ratio and dampens better because its softer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2019 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

shao uses old stiga carbon
robert uses donier robert roberts off
ben nisbet sell's them at tabletennisstore.us

Is shao still using clippa?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 8:59am
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

shao uses old stiga carbon
robert uses donier robert roberts off
ben nisbet sell's them at tabletennisstore.us

Is shao still using clippa?
no
rating solid 1000
moving up to 1001
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 9:01am
Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

shao uses old stiga carbon
robert uses donier robert roberts off
ben nisbet sell's them at tabletennisstore.us

Is shao still using clippa?
no

So what pips?
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