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Are major blade manufacturers total morons ?

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Thuro_Wexston View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04/14/2019 at 1:04pm

      I am by no means knocking HardBat TableTennis whilce it lasted ( I don't want Berndt to go ballistic on me)  but one of the biggest advantages of sponge domain TableTennis over hardbat is that sponge domain TableTennis allows for individual style enhancement where each TableTennis player with his or her own unique style can design their racket with different rubbers on backhand and forehand and backhand to match their unique playing style

Examples : - 

A PowerLooper on ForeHand and SoftLooper on backhand can choose rubbers with different sponges & TopSheets 

A hitter on forehand & looper on backhand of course can choose ShortPips on ForeHand & reversed rubber for backhand 

A chopper can use cLongPips on BackHand & reversed rubber on ForeHand 

 etc etc etc etc etc.

          But these choices are unfortunately limited to the rubber level and at the blade level SHOCKINGLY, very few blades are available from MAJOR manufacturers like Butterfly, Stiga, Tibhar , Joola etc or even from minor manufacturers.  

     Manufacturers use all sorts of marketing gimmicks to differentiate their blades from even within their own product lines  let alone with competing manufacturers. But they have not fully exploited this simple concept that most humans  have different BackHand & ForeHand (styles). This at the very worst is definitely a more real and more exploitable marketing variation than fake gimmicks lies (such as very one of tehir blades can do it ALL)  

           Yes there a re a few blades available here and there from manufacturers (but this are seems to be limited to custom blade-makers) but it blows my mind when a major manufacturer like Butterfly or Stiga does not make a single blade that has different forehand and backhand behavior ?   Am I missing something major here ?  Yes I understand that the design of such blades could be a bit more complex than simple blades with same BackHand & ForeHand but this is a real issue form most players (humans) than stupid marketing gimmicks to differentiate their products. 

     Looks to me like Butterfly Stiga etc are either woefully short-sighted in identifying these differences in human (playing styles on BackHand & ForeHand) or they are limiting themselves professional players only. If  you are non-professional player ask Butterfly or Stiga to make a custom blade they would essentially tell you to go F yourself , but if a professional player asks it would be ready in 10 minutes, but the vast market is not the few professional players

     As an example, most defensive blades by Butterfly etc are pieces of pure crap to me because I simply cannot comprehend the idea of having a composite material like carbon on the chopping side (given that these stupid rackets have identical ForeHand & BackHand layer composition). Yes I have heard from almost all custom blade-makers about the difficulty of isolating the carbon effect from propagating to the non-carbon defensive (chopping) side but some blades have been achieved but major manufacturers with their superior design & testing resources can do far better. This goes to any blade design with very different ForeHand & BackHand layer composition.

Giant Dragon made Chris model with different ForeHand & BackHand and then Chris Carbon with carbon only on one side. But they discontinued this model as they made only a few 100 it seems & I cannot get my hands on one. I then had to modify Giant Carbon Super Balsa 2 putting carbon & another layer wood on top & this is my favorite blade. I gave one of these these blade away to a 1900 player and he is playing like 2200 now & he sold away all his other blades LOL . I only have one modified SuperBalsa 2 now and I cannot find any SuperBalsa 2 either from Giant Dragon. I think giant Dragon could easily sell more 10000 pieces of Chris Carbon (half of them to EJs) but they don't make any anymore of this model  & this blows my mind.

One may claim that you can achieve the style variations by varying the rubber (top-sheet & sponge) but in some cases like above defensive blades it is very difficult. You can design a racket much better to match your style with a suitable blade FISRT more than with rubber 

Whatever

Now let us not start childish arguments that it is all in your proper technique & a professional player can play with a frozen fish (or clipboard) & beat you blah blah blah 

Yes proper technique is critical but proper racket to start with is paramount especially for a player still improving(not perfecting which will NEVER happen at amateur level)  their technique.  




Edited by Thuro_Wexston - 04/14/2019 at 2:22pm
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obesechopper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 2:45pm
I've used quite a few of the 2 sided blades, and they don't feel all that different to me. I think it's true that you cannot really isolate the 2 properties very well. The different rubbers work much better in my experience. 

Especially if the blade is under 6mm in total thickness. There isn't a whole lot of wiggle room to effectively separate the 2 characteristics. Players seem to have echoed the same sentiment, and that is why it's never caught on. 

How different are you wanting the 2 sides to play? Compare a slow chopping blade to a fast attacking blade -- how can you combine the two? Or a blocking blade compared to a looping blade? Stiff/flexy, hard/soft etc. the contrasting elements that are at opposite ends. Let's say 50% of the blade is stiff/hard material and the other 50% is soft and flexy. It's just going to feel like a weakened compromise. Neither side will have the same sensation as another blade catering to 100% of the desired characteristic. So I think people just say, ok I plan to loop 90% of the time, let's get a blade for that. Or... I want to block 90% of the time, so let's buy a blade for that style and I can manage the other 10%. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 3:20pm
stiga hypertech cr 35/45 is an pretty old Stiga blade that has a little faster side and a little slower side. I can imagine they did not sell well enough so they did not make more blades like it. 

We will see how well Xiom ice cream blades will sell. If they will sell good i think more manufacturers will do blade like that. 

I also think offensive players play pretty similar with backhand and forehand and many feel that they do not need a faster and a slower side. This is much more important for long pimple players, but there are already alof of these blades from other brands. So I think brands like Stiga and Butterfly feel that it will be hard to make blades like this and sell alot because many long pimple players chose the brands thar are more specialised. I can also imagine that the brands feel that there is few players that want two different sides so it is not worth the investment of time and money. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 3:41pm
I think obesechopper is on the money. Beyond using different top plies it's an interesting challenge to design a thin mostly wooden blade to play differently on each side. The whole blade has to vibrate differently (but still effectively for power transfer and feedback) depending on which side is struck. Composite materials are so complicated that trial and error may be the only way to do this. It's probably extremely difficult which is why Butterfly doesn't have a line of combination blades. If I had to do this I'd look into adopting the evolutionary algorithm approach they've used to design antennas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 4:05pm
what are the blades that are so different from fh to bh composition? the reason it's hard to differentiate is that nobody drastically enhanced the differences on both sides. For example, I have not seen a composition like 

thick willow
willow
limba
kiri
ipe
alc
mahogany

I mean really going slower/softer on one side and harder/stiffer on the other instead of offering homeopath(et)ic differences.

My question is what are the blades offering the most drastic differences and is it possible to go further? the answer is most certainly yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 4:32pm
As obese chopper wisely points out. It is a SINGLE blade. Minor changes can be made. You CANNOT make a stiff blade for the FH and a flexy blade for the BH. The blade has 2 sides, but is not two blades. (Yes you can make one side hard and the other a little softer, but not flexy vs. stiff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 5:07pm
We all agree on stiffness, it's been repeated many times on this forum and elsewhere. (when I wrote "harder/stiffer", read "materials that generally favor harder/stiffer")

It's about increasing the COR difference between both sides, the bounce: it is possible to make it much more pronounced on one side than on the other; would that still be  a minor change?
So far the minor changes observed are related to the choice of materials that are too close to each other to show a clear difference. 

My question is: if we go all the way pushing for that difference with extreme materials, will the COR and bounce differ enough not to be considered minor changes? that push to the extremes has not been tried yet. Maybe there is a reason for not even trying but so far that reason is only inferred by logical minds who wrap things up too quickly, I don't trust those.



Edited by fatt - 04/14/2019 at 5:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Cho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 8:22pm
What about the Neubauer Blades or my Favorite Rendler Blades

As most know already Rendler makes a lot.. if not all  of Neubauer Blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thuro_Wexston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 8:57pm
Sorry I disagree with all of you. While it may take more work, it is definitely possible to make blade that is freaky fast and stiff & almost no vibration on one side (forehand) maybe using carbon & arylate or kevalr and super-slow with high vibration ( to enhance the long pips effects) on other side (backhand) with the right outer layer woods for either side and say 7 to 9 mm balsa for isolation. I may not be exact on numbers 9 mm or wood selections but it is possible.

Currently no such stock rackets exist for choppers to handle the overwhelming glued up boosted up firepower of the loopers by totally taking away that top spin and return with heavy backspin . Given the endless rule changes to punish the choppers starting with the 2 color rule, then Aspect Ratiio Regulation, then the 40 mm ball, then the pip density regulation and then the 40+ ball plus non-celluloid ball with no end in sight for the clever abuse, there is no help for choppers whatsoever and yet they would belive that that glue using attackers are their close friend and are admiring their chopping skills  ROTFL.  

Even if far from perfect that is much better than moronic defensive blade designs by Butterfly etc where they put carbon closest to outer layer (both sides are same) . That is so freaking stupid.

Also it is much easier to make with a hitting side and a looping side 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thuro_Wexston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

I've used quite a few of the 2 sided blades, and they don't feel all that different to me. I think it's true that you cannot really isolate the 2 properties very well. The different rubbers work much better in my experience.
Sorry I currently have custom or customized blades that have drastically different forehand and backhand behavior. But what I am saying is that custome blade manufacturers have not fully exploited the differences in 90% humans with totally different forehand styles meaning consistency, stroke-mechanics etc etc) 

Originally posted by obesechopper</div><div>Especially if the blade is under 6mm in total thickness. There isn't a whole lot of wiggle room to effectively separate the 2 characteristics. Players seem to have echoed the same sentiment, and that is why it's never caught on. </div><div>[QUOTE/ obesechopper
Especially if the blade is under 6mm in total thickness. There isn't a whole lot of wiggle room to effectively separate the 2 characteristics. Players seem to have echoed the same sentiment, and that is why it's never caught on. 
[QUOTE/ wrote:


Sorry totally disagree

[QUOTE=obesechopper]
How different are you wanting the 2 sides to play? 

As much different they can be, not just for my overall style but for every human possible combination of styles. Definitely possible. Most low level players may not realize this possibilities and that may be why it may have never caught on 20 or 30 years ago but definitely not now. Even if no true, are you telling me that a (Butterfly) defensive blade with carbon closest to chopping side (since both sides ar same) makes any sense whatsoever ?   I realize the chopper market is too small for Butterfly to give a damn but still, such a design is a total insult to choppers and charge $150 or more for it  ...what a freaking joke.
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnopgnipster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2019 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Thuro_Wexston Thuro_Wexston wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

I've used quite a few of the 2 sided blades, and they don't feel all that different to me. I think it's true that you cannot really isolate the 2 properties very well. The different rubbers work much better in my experience.
Sorry I currently have custom or customized blades that have drastically different forehand and backhand behavior. But what I am saying is that custome blade manufacturers have not fully exploited the differences in 90% humans with totally different forehand styles meaning consistency, stroke-mechanics etc etc) 

Originally posted by obesechopper</div><div>Especially if the blade is under 6mm in total thickness. There isn't a whole lot of wiggle room to effectively separate the 2 characteristics. Players seem to have echoed the same sentiment, and that is why it's never caught on. </div><div>[QUOTE/ obesechopper
Especially if the blade is under 6mm in total thickness. There isn't a whole lot of wiggle room to effectively separate the 2 characteristics. Players seem to have echoed the same sentiment, and that is why it's never caught on. 
[QUOTE/ wrote:


Sorry totally disagree

[QUOTE=obesechopper]
How different are you wanting the 2 sides to play? 

As much different they can be, not just for my overall style but for every human possible combination of styles. Definitely possible. Most low level players may not realize this possibilities and that may be why it may have never caught on 20 or 30 years ago but definitely not now. Even if no true, are you telling me that a (Butterfly) defensive blade with carbon closest to chopping side (since both sides ar same) makes any sense whatsoever ?   I realize the chopper market is too small for Butterfly to give a damn but still, such a design is a total insult to choppers and charge $150 or more for it  ...what a freaking joke.
   
One of the best Butterfly defensive blades was a Tamca 5000 carbon called Allure. That blade was amazing. Why BTY discontinued it... ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 1:08am
maybe you can do this, but the result is not worth it?

It might be difficult to adjust to and utilise. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 10:33am
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

As obese chopper wisely points out. It is a SINGLE blade. Minor changes can be made. You CANNOT make a stiff blade for the FH and a flexy blade for the BH. The blade has 2 sides, but is not two blades. (Yes you can make one side hard and the other a little softer, but not flexy vs. stiff.
Unless some manufacturer had the idea of a system like the old Waldner Dicon, with a gap between each side. But instead of applying it in the handle, it should be in the middle of blade face.
But I don´t think it will ever become a reality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 4:09pm
Now you can custom design your blade. And we are have a "Everyone has one custom blade Event" only cost you $79
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lasta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 11:07pm
It's all a balancing act. You can employ the thick balsa/cork separation method, but at extreme thicknesses, feedback is hampered.

Also, just like rubbers, what you have on the backhand WILL affect how your forehand plays. Having a koto-carbon forehand and a cork-kiri backhand will not only dampen your backhand stroke but your forehand as well because the impact is transferred through your effort and then the whole blade. The dampening characteristics of your backhand plies will also be a dampener against the transfer of energy between your fingers and the blade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 11:16pm
Well the pros love a good Viscaria so ima say no. They can have it anyway they want but na they love a balanced blade
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2019 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by lasta lasta wrote:

It's all a balancing act. You can employ the thick balsa/cork separation method, but at extreme thicknesses, feedback is hampered.

Also, just like rubbers, what you have on the backhand WILL affect how your forehand plays. Having a koto-carbon forehand and a cork-kiri backhand will not only dampen your backhand stroke but your forehand as well because the impact is transferred through your effort and then the whole blade. The dampening characteristics of your backhand plies will also be a dampener against the transfer of energy between your fingers and the blade.
that's what obesechopper and vanjr said and I totally get it, I felt the same on those I tried but being a bit stubborn, I want to think the chosen plies were not different enough. I guess to be totally convinced I'd need a bounce test: with a ball falling from 3 meters, we'd record the the frequency test and the height of the bounce from both extreme sides. In a vacuum tube would be even better.
I am not motivated enough to push or work for it, I just hope for a true answer with data backing it up, not just faith and deductions from other conclusions that were themselves inferred from more subjective ideas. I hope I don't sound pedantic, I just want to be sure and let it go one way or the other as something done thoroughly.
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