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Chen Wang and Victor Liu demand for arbitration

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 11:07am
to the above idea of Amy playing better in international matches:  international could mean a lot of playing styles , what if Amy runs into someone that plays like Xinyue, then wouldn't she lose? - all things being equal.  Being fearless also more or less have a certain reaklessness attached to it.  If being fearless means success - why wouldn't more people employ it?  To me fearless also result in feast or famine.  I am trying to discuss this objectively for the subject here - personally I perfer reakless playing as I enjoy it more than what I can get from match results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 11:10am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Since the PanAm Games are under USOC, you have to assume their guidelines will apply which means (I think) USATT will have clearly state their evaluation methods and not "not in particular order" for their discretionary criteria 
I haven't read all of it, but afaict the USOC Athlete and Staff Selection Procedures Instruction Manual does not go into that level of detail regarding requiring an order of significance or a weighting factor for each discretionary item.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 11:18am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Since the PanAm Games are under USOC, you have to assume their guidelines will apply which means (I think) USATT will have clearly state their evaluation methods and not "not in particular order" for their discretionary criteria 
I haven't read all of it, but afaict the USOC Athlete and Staff Selection Procedures Instruction Manual does not go into that level of detail regarding requiring an order of significance or a weighting factor for each discretionary item.
I think clear implies some kind of weighting or order of importance - the way it is written in the USATT guideline is very open to abuse (my opinion only)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kyle90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 11:22am
Almost beating someone should not even be part of any selection discussion. For not much money I’m sure you can convince a player better than you to keep the match close yet still beat you. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 11:49am
Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

Almost beating someone should not even be part of any selection discussion. For not much money I’m sure you can convince a player better than you to keep the match close yet still beat you. 
Playing a top 10 ranked player exceptionally well does matter though.  Kanak Jha also lost to Ma Long, but we can see by the way he played he's improved tremendously (and it's showing at the Croatia Open).  So yes, if you're purely looking at win/loss then you can throw out Amy's match as being a non-starter.  But I'm going to stick with my opinion that though subjective, the trained eyes and experience of table tennis coaches has much value and not just let's plug player names, wins, losses into a computer and spit out a result for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 11:53am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Since the PanAm Games are under USOC, you have to assume their guidelines will apply which means (I think) USATT will have clearly state their evaluation methods and not "not in particular order" for their discretionary criteria 

Yes.  In cycling,  the discretionary criteria are stated and in order of importance. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 11:58am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

Almost beating someone should not even be part of any selection discussion. For not much money I’m sure you can convince a player better than you to keep the match close yet still beat you. 
Playing a top 10 ranked player exceptionally well does matter though.  Kanak Jha also lost to Ma Long, but we can see by the way he played he's improved tremendously (and it's showing at the Croatia Open).  So yes, if you're purely looking at win/loss then you can throw out Amy's match as being a non-starter.  But I'm going to stick with my opinion that though subjective, the trained eyes and experience of table tennis coaches has much value and not just let's plug player names, wins, losses into a computer and spit out a result for me.

I know coaches who would very much disagree with this and would argue that the results should speak for themselves. And in this case the match results or trials. Or there could be a points system where players know how they are doing in the qualification cycle up till the selection date.  But the approach here leaves us in the dark as to what really made the difference. We have to hold the coaches a bit more accountable than that.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

Almost beating someone should not even be part of any selection discussion. For not much money I’m sure you can convince a player better than you to keep the match close yet still beat you. 
Playing a top 10 ranked player exceptionally well does matter though.  Kanak Jha also lost to Ma Long, but we can see by the way he played he's improved tremendously (and it's showing at the Croatia Open).  So yes, if you're purely looking at win/loss then you can throw out Amy's match as being a non-starter.  But I'm going to stick with my opinion that though subjective, the trained eyes and experience of table tennis coaches has much value and not just let's plug player names, wins, losses into a computer and spit out a result for me.

I know coaches who would very much disagree with this and would argue that the results should speak for themselves. And in this case the match results or trials. Or there could be a points system where players know how they are doing in the qualification cycle up till the selection date.  But the approach here leaves us in the dark as to what really made the difference. We have to hold the coaches a bit more accountable than that.
If the only result that USATT is interested in is the numerical win/loss at the Pan Am Trials, then I would agree that Amy should not be selected for the Pan Am Championships.  But I just don't think things are that black and white and that the HPC should be allowed some discretion in choosing the 3rd player (I think Lily and Jennifer have separated themselves adequately as 1 and 2) for Pan Am. 

Now I'm all for transparency, and I would love to hear some commentary from the HPC, perhaps meeting notes, into how they came up with their decision.  I'm not sure if a points system is viable because I don't know how you quantify something like Amy played really, really well vs. WR#10 FTW.

Would love to hear from our new CEO Virginia Sung on the matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 2:15pm
"Now I'm all for transparency, and I would love to hear some commentary from the HPC, perhaps meeting notes, into how they came up with their decision.  I'm not sure if a points system is viable because I don't know how you quantify something like Amy played really, really well vs. WR#10 FTW."

without a point system of some kind, there is no objective process and the decision cannot be justified when required and won't satisfy the vast majority of the people involved.  The only one truly  happy with the system will only be the ones making the decisions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 6:54pm
Just wondering.  Are there any forum members that actually are lawyers and willing to share their thoughts on any or all of this?  Thought I'd ask. Smile
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