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Direct Link To This Post Topic: USATT rating scam
    Posted: 05/15/2019 at 6:12pm
https://usatt.simplycompete.com/t/tr/13804?u=165417&uai=165417
This 1500ish player join open lose 2 and get 2399usatt rating. 




Therefore he won't be playing tournament anymore and brag to everyone that he is 2399 usatt rating? lol. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 6:19pm
I don't know if I would call it a "scam" but did you notice that these are not the same players you were referring to in your two links? The players have different member numbers!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 6:45pm
edit: Sorry I may recognized the wrong person

I think he is better than 1500, but far from 2399


Edited by ttssbba - 05/15/2019 at 6:48pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 6:47pm
Sorry I may recognized the wrong person
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

I don't know if I would call it a "scam" but did you notice that these are not the same players you were referring to in your two links? The players have different member numbers!
I don't know if they are the same person or not, but it's quite possible for a player to have two different member IDs.  Just purchase another membership.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 7:30pm
yeh , scam of some kind
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 8:06pm
If I had the choice of being rated 2399 and never play another tournament or being rated slightly over 1500 and have a choice to compete in as many tournaments as I like, I'd choose the latter. I don't see the advantage of boasting with such a severe penalty.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 8:24pm
I mean, people will know something's not right when they play them. It's not the same as being like 2300, but 'accidentally' being rated 2400. With such a wide gap in actual skill level, you could only joke, not boast about it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 8:47pm
Jose's friend "Wow! You're 2400?  Who have you beaten to get there?"
Jose: "Ummm.. No one"

LOL.  This exposes a flaw in the USATT ratings system.  There was also another flaw discovered that was talked about in some other thread a while back ... had something to do with the poster getting exactly 75 points (I think?) and it created a result that differed from the ratings calculation published on USATT's website.  It never got fixed as far as I know
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 2:52am
seems like one is league rating and one is for usatt tournaments.  

ratings will even out if he plays more tournaments
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 9:10am
Am I the only one who notices players on video always look worse than their rating, but in real life I see players who I do not know (at tournaments or at other clubs) they look better than their rating? I will see these players in real life and am convinced I have NO chance against them. Even in warm up I feel overwhelmed. Then the match comes and I (the 1500 rated player) win 3-1??? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 10:11am
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Am I the only one who notices players on video always look worse than their rating, but in real life I see players who I do not know (at tournaments or at other clubs) they look better than their rating? I will see these players in real life and am convinced I have NO chance against them. Even in warm up I feel overwhelmed. Then the match comes and I (the 1500 rated player) win 3-1??? 


Your post indicates that you are not very good/observant of players' strengths and weaknesses. But not to worry, few of us are. That's the advantage of a having a good corner-man during matches.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 10:15am
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:


Therefore he won't be playing tournament anymore and brag to everyone that he is 2399 usatt rating? lol. 



Seems like a big jump in logic. Maybe he will continue to play tournaments. If so, a lot of people are gonna get a lot of free rating points for beating him.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 10:16am
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

If I had the choice of being rated 2399 and never play another tournament or being rated slightly over 1500 and have a choice to compete in as many tournaments as I like, I'd choose the latter. I don't see the advantage of boasting with such a severe penalty.


Or when it becomes blatantly obvious the moment you step onto the table. At that point it would be more of an embarrassment than a medal of honor in my opinion...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 11:12am
just to be on the other side, how do we know he is boasting about the rating and will protect it by not competing?  maybe he is doing the exact opposite
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 11:19am
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Am I the only one who notices players on video always look worse than their rating, but in real life I see players who I do not know (at tournaments or at other clubs) they look better than their rating? I will see these players in real life and am convinced I have NO chance against them. Even in warm up I feel overwhelmed. Then the match comes and I (the 1500 rated player) win 3-1??? 


Your post indicates that you are not very good/observant of players' strengths and weaknesses. But not to worry, few of us are. That's the advantage of a having a good corner-man during matches.

I am about 700 USATT rating points in identifying strengths and weaknesses from watching (and maybe 900 when playing), but my league rating is higher.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 1:59pm
I hope that I get to play that 2300 player at my next tournament.. Initial ratings with no wins are hard to determine..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 5:04pm
I have a hard time understanding the US ranking system. Do you get the points from all matches you play? 

It seems to me that the level can vary alot between two guys but they still have the same ranking. Do that mean that the level if very different in the country? so it is easier/harder to win matches in some areas? Therefore the ranking do not really say much?

I am also interested in how they determine a guys ranking the first time. Do everyone start one the same? i have watched some matches with asian guys that have move to the US that seems to have very high ranking but in my opinion not all of them is soo crazy good. Same here. two guys can have the same high ranking but their level seems to differ alot in my opinion. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I have a hard time understanding the US ranking system. Do you get the points from all matches you play? 

It seems to me that the level can vary alot between two guys but they still have the same ranking. Do that mean that the level if very different in the country? so it is easier/harder to win matches in some areas? Therefore the ranking do not really say much?

I am also interested in how they determine a guys ranking the first time. Do everyone start one the same? i have watched some matches with asian guys that have move to the US that seems to have very high ranking but in my opinion not all of them is soo crazy good. Same here. two guys can have the same high ranking but their level seems to differ alot in my opinion. 

Yes, you would gain or lose points for every match. Its more of a rating rather than a ranking. It works similar to the chess rating system. If the players have a current rating and have played a fair amount of recent tournaments, it would give you a good idea of their current level within their region. One problem is that a lot of players would tell you their rating from 5 or 10 years ago, which isn't really a reliable indicator of their current playing level. My rating is 1815, but I've improved quite a bit since my last USATT tournament in 2015. I've haven't been back to the states to play any tournaments in the last four years, but I've been playing 5 to 7 days a week in Vietnam for the last four years. I'm probably a good bit better than 1815. 

A second problem is that a lot of the players don't travel coast to coast for tournaments. 99 percent of the players don't even travel outside of their state for a tournament. For instance, a 2000 rated player in California is typically a little bit better than a 2000 rated player in Florida. Even when I visit Ohio. I'll play in Columbus, Indianapolis, and Cincinnati when I'm in that region. The last time I visited that region in 2015, I lost to the all of the 1950+ rated guys in Cincinnati, but I was beating some of the 2000 to 2100 in Indianapolis. Also, most players rating fluctuates up and down 75 to 100 points once they reach their plateau. 


Edited by ericd937 - 05/16/2019 at 8:05pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I have a hard time understanding the US ranking system. Do you get the points from all matches you play? 

It seems to me that the level can vary alot between two guys but they still have the same ranking. Do that mean that the level if very different in the country? so it is easier/harder to win matches in some areas? Therefore the ranking do not really say much?

I am also interested in how they determine a guys ranking the first time. Do everyone start one the same? i have watched some matches with asian guys that have move to the US that seems to have very high ranking but in my opinion not all of them is soo crazy good. Same here. two guys can have the same high ranking but their level seems to differ alot in my opinion. 

Yes, you would gain or lose points for every match. Its more of a rating rather than a ranking. It works similar to the chess rating system. If the players have a current rating and have played a fair amount of recent tournaments, it would give you a good idea of their current level within their region. One problem is that a lot of players would tell you their rating from 5 or 10 years ago, which isn't really a reliable indicator of their current playing level. My rating is 1815, but I've improved quite a bit since my last USATT tournament in 2015. I've haven't been back to the states to play any tournaments in the last four years, but I've been playing 5 to 7 days a week in Vietnam for the last four years. I'm probably a good bit better than 1815. 

A second problem is that a lot of the players don't travel coast to coast for tournaments. 99 percent of the players don't even travel outside of their state for a tournament. For instance, a 2000 rated player in California is typically a little bit better than a 2000 rated player in Florida. Even when I visit Ohio. I'll play in Columbus, Indianapolis, and Cincinnati when I'm in that region. The last time I visited that region in 2015, I lost to the all of the 1950+ rated guys in Cincinnati, but I was beating some of the 2000 to 2100 in Indianapolis. Also, most players rating fluctuates up and down 75 to 100 points once they reach their plateau. 
A slight clarification on rating points. You gain/lose points to anyone within 250 points of you. For example if you had 1650 rating and beat a 1550 player you would gain 4 points. If the 1550 player had won the 1650 would have lost 20 points. If a higher rated player beats a player more than 238-250 points below them he would not gain any points. 




Edited by Vince64 - 05/16/2019 at 9:03pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

I don't know if I would call it a "scam" but did you notice that these are not the same players you were referring to in your two links? The players have different member numbers!
I don't know if they are the same person or not, but it's quite possible for a player to have two different member IDs.  Just purchase another membership.
 
I'm 99% certain its the same person and the reason he has 2 different USATT Id numbers is because the week before the tournament he played in WCTTA league and was assigned USATT Id number which is required to play in leagues that use the usatt league ratings. It's also where he was given a estimated rating of 1500 which had to be given to him before he played because if you looked at the league results you would see the highest player he beat was under 1000 and would no way end up at 1500 based off that. Now when he entered the tournament he was assigned a whole new USATT number. This has actually become a issue now, with newer players ending up with 2 id numbers because of playing in a usatt league then playing in a tournament. I've had to have at least 8-12 players email usatt about merging their accounts after tournaments to have just one usatt account number.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2019 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I have a hard time understanding the US ranking system. Do you get the points from all matches you play? 

It seems to me that the level can vary alot between two guys but they still have the same ranking. Do that mean that the level if very different in the country? so it is easier/harder to win matches in some areas? Therefore the ranking do not really say much?

I am also interested in how they determine a guys ranking the first time. Do everyone start one the same? i have watched some matches with asian guys that have move to the US that seems to have very high ranking but in my opinion not all of them is soo crazy good. Same here. two guys can have the same high ranking but their level seems to differ alot in my opinion. 

Yes, you would gain or lose points for every match. Its more of a rating rather than a ranking. It works similar to the chess rating system. If the players have a current rating and have played a fair amount of recent tournaments, it would give you a good idea of their current level within their region. One problem is that a lot of players would tell you their rating from 5 or 10 years ago, which isn't really a reliable indicator of their current playing level. My rating is 1815, but I've improved quite a bit since my last USATT tournament in 2015. I've haven't been back to the states to play any tournaments in the last four years, but I've been playing 5 to 7 days a week in Vietnam for the last four years. I'm probably a good bit better than 1815. 

A second problem is that a lot of the players don't travel coast to coast for tournaments. 99 percent of the players don't even travel outside of their state for a tournament. For instance, a 2000 rated player in California is typically a little bit better than a 2000 rated player in Florida. Even when I visit Ohio. I'll play in Columbus, Indianapolis, and Cincinnati when I'm in that region. The last time I visited that region in 2015, I lost to the all of the 1950+ rated guys in Cincinnati, but I was beating some of the 2000 to 2100 in Indianapolis. Also, most players rating fluctuates up and down 75 to 100 points once they reach their plateau. 

To elaborate. Rating in California especially bay area is significantly better than anywhere else in US unless we are talking about 2250+. I recall there's this 1900 usatt player from florida or some sort, he is like 1500 in the bay.  That said, with inflating rating like this guy. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2019 at 3:22pm
[QUOTE=hunkeelin]To elaborate. Rating in California especially bay area is significantly better than anywhere else in US unless we are talking about 2250+. I recall there's this 1900 usatt player from florida or some sort, he is like 1500 in the bay.  That said, with inflating rating like this guy.
Do you have data to support this claim? I hear this a lot on the forum but I have never seen extensive data like from people moving to the Bay Area and dropping a lot or people moving from the Bay Area and gaining a lot. Otherwise this is just anecdotal evidence. A few of my practice buddies (I live in Arizona) who are in the 1900-2000 USATT range have been to tournaments in CA and also the Nationals and have performed quite well; two guys actually won U-2000 and U-1950 events or finished 2nd.
 
To come back to the OP, I wouldn't call it a scam because nobody is trying to deliberately trick somebody or use a dishonest scheme. However, the rating system is not perfect and this is certainly something that could be improved on. I believe no rating should be assigned to a player who enters his first tournament and does not win a match. If he plays a couple more tourneys his rating will reflect his true level though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2019 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

[QUOTE=hunkeelin]To elaborate. Rating in California especially bay area is significantly better than anywhere else in US unless we are talking about 2250+. I recall there's this 1900 usatt player from florida or some sort, he is like 1500 in the bay.  That said, with inflating rating like this guy.
Do you have data to support this claim? I hear this a lot on the forum but I have never seen extensive data like from people moving to the Bay Area and dropping a lot or people moving from the Bay Area and gaining a lot. Otherwise this is just anecdotal evidence. A few of my practice buddies (I live in Arizona) who are in the 1900-2000 USATT range have been to tournaments in CA and also the Nationals and have performed quite well; two guys actually won U-2000 and U-1950 events or finished 2nd.
 
To come back to the OP, I wouldn't call it a scam because nobody is trying to deliberately trick somebody or use a dishonest scheme. However, the rating system is not perfect and this is certainly something that could be improved on. I believe no rating should be assigned to a player who enters his first tournament and does not win a match. If he plays a couple more tourneys his rating will reflect his true level though.

California is a big state. I am specially talking about bay area. Look at the most recent youth ranking. Almost every bay area youth increase rating significantly and everyone else rating decrease. The level here is much higher. Bay are have 5 national level youth producing club pumping super underrated kids every year deflating the rating system. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2019 at 5:50pm
If MyTT forum doesn't know it, Lula plays in Div 1 Sweden... which you gotta be 2400+ just to get in the door. He may not get the nuances of USATT rating points just yet, but he isn't given to talk out hiz azz.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2019 at 5:52pm
About California rating being historically stronger for the rating below 200 or 2100...

I can personally attest that I came to California near 200 rating and instantly dropped to 1800 and then a bit below. I recovered a lot of the rating level (thanks to emihet and Scoobie Doo) but it took improving nearly 2 levels just to get back.

That is California deflated ratings pressure for you live.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2019 at 8:05am
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:



California is a big state. I am specially talking about bay area. Look at the most recent youth ranking. Almost every bay area youth increase rating significantly and everyone else rating decrease. The level here is much higher. Bay are have 5 national level youth producing club pumping super underrated kids every year deflating the rating system. 

Bay area is notorious for severely under rating juniors, starting them out below 500 level rating. The large pool of juniors feeds up. The fact that this has been tolerated for years definitely deflates California ratings throughout the Bay area. 

But again, rating is a scam anyway. If you enjoy playing, it i fun to play against similar level people. I generally can have a good (translate to "fun for me") match with anyone 500 points above or below me. I also think I can beat OR lose to anyone in that range.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2019 at 8:50am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

[QUOTE=hunkeelin]To elaborate. Rating in California especially bay area is significantly better than anywhere else in US unless we are talking about 2250+. I recall there's this 1900 usatt player from florida or some sort, he is like 1500 in the bay.  That said, with inflating rating like this guy.
Do you have data to support this claim? I hear this a lot on the forum but I have never seen extensive data like from people moving to the Bay Area and dropping a lot or people moving from the Bay Area and gaining a lot. Otherwise this is just anecdotal evidence. A few of my practice buddies (I live in Arizona) who are in the 1900-2000 USATT range have been to tournaments in CA and also the Nationals and have performed quite well; two guys actually won U-2000 and U-1950 events or finished 2nd.
 
To come back to the OP, I wouldn't call it a scam because nobody is trying to deliberately trick somebody or use a dishonest scheme. However, the rating system is not perfect and this is certainly something that could be improved on. I believe no rating should be assigned to a player who enters his first tournament and does not win a match. If he plays a couple more tourneys his rating will reflect his true level though.

I did notice that whenever the players I knew in Florida went to a west coast tournament, they almost always dropped 100 or more rating points in a single tournament. Those players ranged from 1400 up to 2100. 


Edited by ericd937 - 05/18/2019 at 8:51am
Current Setup:
Sittiho Hinoki ALC, T80(max), Baracuda(max)
Official USATT Rating 1815
Current estimated level: Bad Day ~ 1900 Good Day ~ 2100 (In Asia since 2015, no USATT events here)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2019 at 10:10am
Would be interesting to compare sub 2100 players in the Bay area whose ratings have stabilized vs. the same in other parts of the country.  I suspect the difference will be much smaller than 400 pts.... 200 pts. sounds more reasonable. I could be wrong though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2019 at 10:19am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Would be interesting to compare sub 2100 players in the Bay area whose ratings have stabilized vs. the same in other parts of the country.  I suspect the difference will be much smaller than 400 pts.... 200 pts. sounds more reasonable. I could be wrong though.


400 pts? Even 200? Wow.
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