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Ma Long Better be #1 on ITTF after China Open

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2019 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Interesting. So the bonus pts were like ranking pts now and would expire in a year, also like the new system. If they had just made rating pts also expire in a year, that would of been a perfect system.
 
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


No. Back then, rating points wouldn't expire. Bonus points would expire after 12 months.

Upset was accounted for by rating point, not bonus point, with the rating point table for expected and unexpected results.

Bonus points were generally awarded based on finishing position.

It'd help if people read up on the old system.

How does that solve the problem of people not playing? They tried making you inactive if you hadn't played for 4 months but that had issues and didn't solve the participation problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2019 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

You think it's gonna change with new ranking system? In the last 20 years they've implemented with quite a few new rules to make the sport more attractive, like tennis. And guess what? Pickle ball showed up. All their efforts are in vain LOL
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Has it occurred to you TT might be intrinsically different from other sports? IMO it's closer to chess than to tennis LOL 

And you want it to remain that way, I presume?

Participation from top players so far has improved. Players need to play to maintain their rankings.

No rating system will solve all problems.  But what is more important, participation or seeding?  Or something else? Maybe if you approach the problem this way, you may appreciate the new system. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2019 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Interesting. So the bonus pts were like ranking pts now and would expire in a year, also like the new system. If they had just made rating pts also expire in a year, that would of been a perfect system.
 
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


No. Back then, rating points wouldn't expire. Bonus points would expire after 12 months.

Upset was accounted for by rating point, not bonus point, with the rating point table for expected and unexpected results.

Bonus points were generally awarded based on finishing position.

It'd help if people read up on the old system.

How does that solve the problem of people not playing? They tried making you inactive if you hadn't played for 4 months but that had issues and didn't solve the participation problem.
 
Well wouldn't you have to play to make up any expired pts? So to maintain your rating you have to play, just not as much if you beat a few top players or win a WTTC (or both). That's what I call merit. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2019 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Interesting. So the bonus pts were like ranking pts now and would expire in a year, also like the new system. If they had just made rating pts also expire in a year, that would of been a perfect system.
 
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


No. Back then, rating points wouldn't expire. Bonus points would expire after 12 months.

Upset was accounted for by rating point, not bonus point, with the rating point table for expected and unexpected results.

Bonus points were generally awarded based on finishing position.

It'd help if people read up on the old system.

How does that solve the problem of people not playing? They tried making you inactive if you hadn't played for 4 months but that had issues and didn't solve the participation problem.
 
Well wouldn't you have to play to make up any expired pts? So to maintain your rating you have to play, just not as much if you beat a few top players or win a WTTC (or both). That's what I call merit. LOL

Strength points can't expire.  How many points should you lose for not playing for 6 month's like Ma Long?  Isn't that what people are complaining about that he shouldn't Lose points despite 6 month of inactivity ?

Someone like Ma Long will likely be handled under an injury provision in the future like they have in tennis, where you provisionally keep your seeding or some of your points for a few events. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2019 at 6:49pm
Federer, Nadal, Joker have all dropped down into the WR 10-20 range from not playing either due to injury or rest breaks.

Joker dropped to #14 after a 6 month injury layoff. #14 was still good enough to be a seeded player in majors, but not a top seed. It certainly would not have been fair to Fed/Nadal and others to seed Joker above them.

Serena was not given a seed into the French Open last year after her pregnancy break, leading to some changes. Should she come back after 13 months as the #1 seed? Most would say no. Seeded yes, but not #1.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/23/sports/serena-williams-pregnancy.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2019 at 12:37am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

How does that solve the problem of people not playing? They tried making you inactive if you hadn't played for 4 months but that had issues and didn't solve the participation problem.

Exactly. To give an example.

DN played 4 times only in 2017. ATTC, WTTC, China Open, and Swedish Open. That's it. She attended Swedish Open only because of that 4-month inactivity rule. She's ranked 21st in Jan, 2018.

She played 11 times in 2018. Team World Cup, Qatar Open, WTTTC, China Open, Korean Open, Australian Open, Bulgarian Open, World Cup, Austrian Open, Swedish Open, and Grand Finals. She was active practically every month. She's ranked 1st in Jan, 2019.

Edited by zeio - 06/06/2019 at 12:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2019 at 1:13am
Personally I also welcome the change. No system is perfect but I'm really enjoying seeing all the top players at nearly all major tournaments. Before this change, I only watched the really big events. Now I watch them all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2019 at 7:27am
only problem with the system is smallish tweaks, i.e. Injury protection (of your rank).

Could do a rolling 2 year ranking, but then a young player will be unseeded for so long. 

People complain when ma long is #5, after 6 months. A junior would be screwed with the longer system.

Maybe double your points gain if you are just entering the rankings for the first time, or 1.5x to prevent abuse, in your first year. Then your point bonus decay after the 1st year, as you enter your 2nd year, otherwise you'd have more points potentially than anyone 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cftt-blades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2019 at 7:30am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

How does that solve the problem of people not playing? They tried making you inactive if you hadn't played for 4 months but that had issues and didn't solve the participation problem.

Exactly. To give an example.

DN played 4 times only in 2017. ATTC, WTTC, China Open, and Swedish Open. That's it. She attended Swedish Open only because of that 4-month inactivity rule. She's ranked 21st in Jan, 2018.

She played 11 times in 2018. Team World Cup, Qatar Open, WTTTC, China Open, Korean Open, Australian Open, Bulgarian Open, World Cup, Austrian Open, Swedish Open, and Grand Finals. She was active practically every month. She's ranked 1st in Jan, 2019.

This is exactly why the ranking system is superior to the old ratings system.  The top players would routinely had random “injuries” as excuses why they couldn’t play at a tournament...and as a result you rarely saw any of the top players.  Now they have to play at least 7 events + the WTTC event (team or singles rotated each year) to maintain their “best 8 results” tied to their ranking, and as evidenced above, even the top players will play more than that to account for a bad event or two.  

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2019 at 8:09am
Never mind...

Edited by NextLevel - 06/06/2019 at 8:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2019 at 1:24pm
As I've mentioned previously, the new system has done a pretty good job overall.

However, there are a few other tweaks I'd like to see (I'll drop my bonus pts. request):

- Limit the number of points you can rack up for individual wins at the World Team TTC .  Ex: CIC racked up 2250 points, equivalent to winning a Platinum World Tour event, at the WTTTC by beating up on 9 weaker players.

- It's probably politically incorrect to adjust the number of points on a continent by continent basis for Continental Cups/Champs so reduce the overall points that can be earned at Continentals.... basically reduce its significance vs. World tour events.

- Forget the points earned at T2; the money/prestige alone should be the reward.  It's only available to 16 invited players (who already are highly ranked) and are *in addition* to the 8 best results annually.

- Not a fan of dropping the half point policy, but I doubt they'll bring that back.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cftt-blades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2019 at 11:00am
+1 to minimizing continental points.  Unfortunately, it will probably have negative side effects (The Chinese currently attend because it is big points, but may not if it wasn't).  However, right now it is also skewing rankings for players in weaker regions (i.e. the Pan-American region, or the Oceanic region).

+1 to changing the way the World Team TTC points are awarded.  I'm not sure the best solution here, but it does seem a bit skewed.  Perhaps the points are tiered based on the round on the presumption that the opponents are better the farther your team gets, and thus the victories are worth more.

I didn't realize T2 points were "in addition" to the best 8 results...  That certainly doesn't seem overly equitable.  I agree that the reward for making it to T2 is simply the fact you get the money/prestige for making it to T2.  Extra ranking points that only 16 players out of the 125-150+ that attend world tour events doesn't seem reasonable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2019 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by WeebleWobble WeebleWobble wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

World rankings should be minimum 2 year cycle in table tennis because of world champs/Olympics. This would instantly improve the rankings. They should also weight the big events heavier and normal platinum events and below ligter.

Don't they already do this? Pretty sure the World championship points last 2 years and the olympics 4 years.   And some events are worth more than others.

My idea was a 2 year cycle for all tournaments and Olympics would be included in this. A ranking lasting 4 years is too long.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2019 at 10:45am
Originally posted by cftt-blades cftt-blades wrote:

+1 to minimizing continental points.  Unfortunately, it will probably have negative side effects (The Chinese currently attend because it is big points, but may not if it wasn't).  However, right now it is also skewing rankings for players in weaker regions (i.e. the Pan-American region, or the Oceanic region).

+1 to changing the way the World Team TTC points are awarded.  I'm not sure the best solution here, but it does seem a bit skewed.  Perhaps the points are tiered based on the round on the presumption that the opponents are better the farther your team gets, and thus the victories are worth more.

I didn't realize T2 points were "in addition" to the best 8 results...  That certainly doesn't seem overly equitable.  I agree that the reward for making it to T2 is simply the fact you get the money/prestige for making it to T2.  Extra ranking points that only 16 players out of the 125-150+ that attend world tour events doesn't seem reasonable.

3.8. Bonus ranking points are awarded for players taking part at the T2 Diamond events if they possess the minimum 8 events to count for the senior ranking. The bonus ranking points are added to the ranking points additionally to the 8 best results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2019 at 11:51am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by cftt-blades cftt-blades wrote:

+1 to minimizing continental points.  Unfortunately, it will probably have negative side effects (The Chinese currently attend because it is big points, but may not if it wasn't).  However, right now it is also skewing rankings for players in weaker regions (i.e. the Pan-American region, or the Oceanic region).

+1 to changing the way the World Team TTC points are awarded.  I'm not sure the best solution here, but it does seem a bit skewed.  Perhaps the points are tiered based on the round on the presumption that the opponents are better the farther your team gets, and thus the victories are worth more.

I didn't realize T2 points were "in addition" to the best 8 results...  That certainly doesn't seem overly equitable.  I agree that the reward for making it to T2 is simply the fact you get the money/prestige for making it to T2.  Extra ranking points that only 16 players out of the 125-150+ that attend world tour events doesn't seem reasonable.

3.8. Bonus ranking points are awarded for players taking part at the T2 Diamond events if they possess the minimum 8 events to count for the senior ranking. The bonus ranking points are added to the ranking points additionally to the 8 best results.

They are clearly doing it to grow the T2 events.  Let's see if it works and how it lasts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2019 at 3:50pm
I think T2 founder(s) contributed lots of money. Money talks these days.
To grow TT, you have to have lots of money to offer higher prize money.

I may be wrong on this.  T2 founder(s) convinced ITTF that ranking points there should be additional, on top of that maximum 8 best events.
====================

I have read somewhere: You can grow TT if you can offer higher prize money. You can offer higher prize money if you can get TV station(s) to carry it (generating revenues from commercials). T2 does that well in Asia.  Asia got lots of TT fans.
====================

Watched T2 matches before, they have quite a few top European players, both men and women.


Edited by skip3119 - 06/08/2019 at 4:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2019 at 4:58pm
T2 has TV broadcasting in Asia.

Since there are quite many top European players play in T2, both men and women,
if they can get some TV stations in Europe to carry T2, that will be a huge step in the right direction.

Revenues from TV commercials will enable to offer higher prize money and more prizes, that will sure grow this sport.
------------------------
ITTF concluded that cooperating with T2 offered some hope to grow the TT sport.
(ITTF tried to grow TT for years without success.)
------------------------
I agree with cftt-blades' comment, reproduced below:

Extra ranking points that only 16 players out of the 125-150+ that attend world tour events doesn't seem reasonable.


Edited by skip3119 - 06/08/2019 at 5:51pm
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