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Sidespin in loops

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    Posted: 06/21/2019 at 6:50pm
I feel that the natural swing on both BH and FH will always impart some degree of sidespin onto the ball even when you hit the ball full on (ie not hitting the ball on the side). To hit even purer topspin would require more wrist adjustments that may not be that comfortable or positive to the stroke.

What do you guys think? Do you usually loop with a little sidespin too?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2019 at 6:14am
For consistency, topspin is most important as it really helps land the ball, but there's little harm in having a little sidespin as part of your natural stroke.
I regularly loop with a lot of sidespin to mix it up and keep my opponents guessing... makes e less consistent but more unpredictable, which works for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2019 at 8:53am
My FH loop has more sidespin. Our current club president calls me a "sidewinder". I think it is an advantage vs lower level players, but quickly beco.e less of one vs higher levels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2019 at 11:18am
One of the players at my club does this. It's his natural form and his loop is loaded with top and sidespin. His H3 rubber makes it quite deadly. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2019 at 12:36am
Side spin on loops you ask?!?  My bread and butter!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2019 at 8:28am
Originally posted by haggisv haggisv wrote:

For consistency, topspin is most important as it really helps land the ball, but there's little harm in having a little sidespin as part of your natural stroke.
I regularly loop with a lot of sidespin to mix it up and keep my opponents guessing... makes e less consistent but more unpredictable, which works for me.

Yeah the topspin is the most important to ensure a high margin for error. But it just seems that a little sidespin is inevitable unless the wrist is put into slight extension where pure topspin is then viable. Maybe I can get used to that instead! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2019 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by haggisv haggisv wrote:

For consistency, topspin is most important as it really helps land the ball, but there's little harm in having a little sidespin as part of your natural stroke.
I regularly loop with a lot of sidespin to mix it up and keep my opponents guessing... makes e less consistent but more unpredictable, which works for me.

Yeah the topspin is the most important to ensure a high margin for error. But it just seems that a little sidespin is inevitable unless the wrist is put into slight extension where pure topspin is then viable. Maybe I can get used to that instead! 

It's simply about where in your swing you contact the ball and what your racket is doing.  The body has circular joints, so even when we try to straighten out our swings, they are circular at various points.  If it is going straight forward or approximating forward motion at contact, there will be more topspin.  If it is curving severely, there will be more sidespin.  Usually the racket is curving more when the ball is taken early or late in a traditional swing.  But if you also try to swing more straight into the ball and not so much around it, the ball will have more topspin.  But because it can be harder to trap the ball with a straight swing, most players will have use some sidespin unless they work hard at finishing forward when they contact the ball, and even then there will still be some sidespin. I think Dan Seemiller wrote in an ancient book something like 85% to 15% is reasonable as a topspin to sidespin ratio.

I try really hard when coaching to get my students to understand that even if you backswing with a shoulder turn, your stroke should come more forward at contact (at least in practice) and not just follow the rotation of your body which will tend to hook it to the side.  Few things annoy me more than people who do not know how to control the direction in which they send the ball.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2019 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by haggisv haggisv wrote:

For consistency, topspin is most important as it really helps land the ball, but there's little harm in having a little sidespin as part of your natural stroke.
I regularly loop with a lot of sidespin to mix it up and keep my opponents guessing... makes e less consistent but more unpredictable, which works for me.

Yeah the topspin is the most important to ensure a high margin for error. But it just seems that a little sidespin is inevitable unless the wrist is put into slight extension where pure topspin is then viable. Maybe I can get used to that instead! 

It's simply about where in your swing you contact the ball and what your racket is doing.  The body has circular joints, so even when we try to straighten out our swings, they are circular at various points.  If it is going straight forward or approximating forward motion at contact, there will be more topspin.  If it is curving severely, there will be more sidespin.  Usually the racket is curving more when the ball is taken early or late in a traditional swing.  But if you also try to swing more straight into the ball and not so much around it, the ball will have more topspin.  But because it can be harder to trap the ball with a straight swing, most players will have use some sidespin unless they work hard at finishing forward when they contact the ball, and even then there will still be some sidespin. I think Dan Seemiller wrote in an ancient book something like 85% to 15% is reasonable as a topspin to sidespin ratio.

I try really hard when coaching to get my students to understand that even if you backswing with a shoulder turn, your stroke should come more forward at contact (at least in practice) and not just follow the rotation of your body which will tend to hook it to the side.  Few things annoy me more than people who do not know how to control the direction in which they send the ball.

I agree...
 
If the wrist is put into slight extension, and the elbow moves forward during the stroke, and we pronate through the stroke over the top of the ball rather than doing a sidehook, the stroke swing will be straighter during contact, this will create mainly topspin, but even then there will still be a little sidespin. Unless you almost fade the ball, it's almost impossible to get a more pure topspin. But fading the ball is just not as good as the normal stroke in terms of power and control because ideally you want to wrap around the top of the ball...


Edited by blahness - 06/23/2019 at 6:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/24/2019 at 11:11am
Blahness,

Does what you just wrote fascinate you or does it genuinely help you play better table tennis?  Just curious.

NL
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/24/2019 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Blahness,

Does what you just wrote fascinate you or does it genuinely help you play better table tennis?  Just curious.

NL

Both. Also I don't want to destroy my wrist playing table tennis, so figuring out these details are important. I already have a lot of power from the hip + thoracic rotation stroke, the wrist movement and position is something I would like to understand a bit more and to control the ball better. Unfortunately most table tennis people don't like scientific biomechanical terms to describe movements, which is the clearest way to describe a movement effectively without any chance of misinterpretation.

There's basically just flexion/extension, radial/ulnar deviation, pronation/supination in wrist movements. 

My experiences with high level piano playing is that wrist positions at the extremities of the flexion/extension and radial/ulnar deviation ranges of  movement are harmful in the long run (many professionals and amateurs alike have been injured playing in those positions).Golfers have this same issue because they tend to overuse the radial/ulnar deviation plane. I have some TT friends who swear that movement along the radial/ulnar deviation plane is the only wrist action one should have.Some in fact have wrist discomfort after playing! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2019 at 10:18am
Gave up trying to eliminate the last 20% of sidespin from my FH loop. It's just unproductive....I went back to neutral wrist position because the wrist extension felt not so comfortable and I actually had less control over the ball. This is a failed experiment lol :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2019 at 6:04am
I think when you're too tall sidespin comes into play more. maybe try getting lower and let the ball travel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pondus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2019 at 10:35am
Originally posted by bars bars wrote:

I think when you're too tall sidespin comes into play more. maybe try getting lower and let the ball travel

Yikes, I didn't know you could be "too tall" to play table tennis. How tall exactly is 'too tall'? I'm worried I may qualify. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2019 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Gave up trying to eliminate the last 20% of sidespin from my FH loop. It's just unproductive....I went back to neutral wrist position because the wrist extension felt not so comfortable and I actually had less control over the ball. This is a failed experiment lol :(

All the best players play with mild hook on their core stroke I could have told you this would fail from day 1.  I tried to explain this to a guy who used to complain about the sidespin on his loop (it is a matter of degree and stroke trajectory) and he ignored me and still hooks the ball more than he expects to without trying. But it hurts his base stroke and form but he doesn't realize it.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2019 at 2:31pm
Hitting the ball straight is more of a mental adjustment than pure topspin. Look at Gionis here.

I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2019 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Hitting the ball straight is more of a mental adjustment than pure topspin. Look at Gionis here.

I definitely see why you are interested in Gionis' fh strokes, yours is very similar and whatever his training lead him to, there is probably nothing wrong going for it for people as tall as he is with a wing span as wide as his.

This is GREAT video btw, watching their strokes at 0.25 speed (e.g Kreanga's bh loop) is a treat, thanks for sharing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2019 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Hitting the ball straight is more of a mental adjustment than pure topspin. Look at Gionis here.

I definitely see why you are interested in Gionis' fh strokes, yours is very similar and whatever his training lead him to, there is probably nothing wrong going for it for people as tall as he is with a wing span as wide as his.

This is GREAT video btw, watching their strokes at 0.25 speed (e.g Kreanga's bh loop) is a treat, thanks for sharing.

I doubt my loop is similar to that, though I clearly have sidespin on my shot.  Just pointing out that world class forehands have *some* sidespin, no need for any to get so crazy about it unless they are 

1) looping with too much sidespin for the opponent to treat their loop as topspin and
2) unable to aim their shot in a straight line.

I could have posted Ma Long or some CNT player but I felt this was obvious enough.  Ma Long takes the sidespin out of his loop as well as anyone with precise contact but it is still a sidespin oriented loop.  He just comes more forward with his larger stroke so he does't get what most mortals get.

WTH, here is Ma Long.



Edited by NextLevel - 06/27/2019 at 5:01pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2019 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Gave up trying to eliminate the last 20% of sidespin from my FH loop. It's just unproductive....I went back to neutral wrist position because the wrist extension felt not so comfortable and I actually had less control over the ball. This is a failed experiment lol :(

All the best players play with mild hook on their core stroke I could have told you this would fail from day 1.  I tried to explain this to a guy who used to complain about the sidespin on his loop (it is a matter of degree and stroke trajectory) and he ignored me and still hooks the ball more than he expects to without trying. But it hurts his base stroke and form but he doesn't realize it.

Yeah you are right... I think as long as I'm hitting the ball head on with good form and wrapping the ball with good control, the small degree of sidespin should be acceptable. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2019 at 4:52am
This tendency to use excessive sidespin is not just confined to the loop stroke. Have you ever noticed that some players can't to a straight topspin knock-up? They tend to hook the ball off the side of the table. With these player I have to slightly counter the sidepin so they will put the next ball on the table. But I get it wrong all the time as they then put the ball down my bh area.Tongue

But seriously, in a match we all tend to put a little side on the loop, I think because that wide fh area is the most reliable place to put the ball, and that's the stroke that we practise most often.
We can use this in a match by assuming the ball will be returned. The next stroke will be to either loop to the centre (very deceptive) or opposite-sidespin-loop to the other side like WLQ.




Edited by Tinykin - 06/28/2019 at 4:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2019 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by Pondus Pondus wrote:

Originally posted by bars bars wrote:

I think when you're too tall sidespin comes into play more. maybe try getting lower and let the ball travel


Yikes, I didn't know you could be "too tall" to play table tennis. How tall exactly is 'too tall'? I'm worried I may qualify. Confused


lol when your knees are straight and you use your arm to get down to the ball instead of your body. i'm 6ft 6inch tall; I can get top if I need to. I'm pretty sure these pros are hookin the ball because theyre out of position/ late/early// or they want to.. not because they cant..

Edited by bars - 06/28/2019 at 6:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2019 at 6:34pm
I meant playing too tall. I forget this is a worldwide website sometimes :).


Edited by bars - 06/28/2019 at 6:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pondus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2019 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by bars bars wrote:

I meant playing too tall. I forget this is a worldwide website sometimes :).

All good, bro - I was just kidding around. 6'6" though - you're a tall dude! Did you play TT when you were younger and not as tall? I played as a kid, but I'm 6'2" now as an adult. Incredible difference in what it's like to play with that kind of height.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2019 at 3:42am
I wish I did!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2019 at 3:43am
Haha I'm only 5 foot 7...being a six footer would have been so awesome but oh well....
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