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Is rating central inherently inaccurate ?

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    Posted: 08/07/2019 at 12:24am
I always wondered about this because in most other countries other than say USA & Canada, aren't most tournaments unsanctioned ? If Rating Central accepts any tournaments without any minimum standards, does it not severely skew the ratings ?  

While we are on this subject, which country has lots of unsanctioned tournaments ?  
It is very disappointing that USA & Canada don't hold many unsanctioned tournaments. I cannot see wasting $75 for supporting junior programs which should come Olympic funds and or the government as is in most countries I think 

What % of the $75  is used for club development ?
USTTA used to have a print magazine & now it is all gone too.

I don't see any good reason to support USTTA

If you have a 2 tier round robin , I don't see the need for sanctioned tournaments at all. 
It would actually be nice if we can see unsanctioned tournaments where juniors are banned because USTTA already has lots of programs dedicated to them when older players get ignored. I don't think this is fair, sort of . What is the big deal in pursuing a stupid medal . It would make sense if USTTA focused more on club development and leave junior development to USOC 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 1:57am
what is your definition of 'unsanctioned'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 3:21am
OP got schooled by juniors, lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 11:01am
Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

I always wondered about this because in most other countries other than say USA & Canada, aren't most tournaments unsanctioned ? If Rating Central accepts any tournaments without any minimum standards, does it not severely skew the ratings ?  
What minimum standards are you referring to?  USATT doesn't have minimum play standards.  If you play only one tournament your whole life, your rating will be based on that one tournament so it's not an accurate reflection of your true skill.  Also, many believe there is a difference between East Coast ratings vs West Coast ratings.  ITTF deducts points from your rating for tournament inactivity but that doesn't mean your skill level has degraded.  With any rating system, the longer and more often you play, the more accurate it is as a reflection of your playing skill against other players who also have a rating.

Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

If you have a 2 tier round robin , I don't see the need for sanctioned tournaments at all. 
It would actually be nice if we can see unsanctioned tournaments where juniors are banned because USTTA already has lots of programs dedicated to them when older players get ignored. I don't think this is fair, sort of . What is the big deal in pursuing a stupid medal . It would make sense if USTTA focused more on club development and leave junior development to USOC 
Sanctioned tournaments are primarily for getting a rating.  If you don't care about ratings, then only play unsanctioned tournaments.  Sanctioned tournaments usually draw more participants so good luck finding unsanctioned tournaments especially if you're looking for higher level players.  If you don't like playing against juniors, then ask your tournament director to have age events in addition to rating events.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

what is your definition of 'unsanctioned'

Excellent point . I should start calling them "Unpolitical" tournaments.

From what I heard , USTTA can take legal action against you if you are a member and run "unpolitical" tournaments . 
THe word "sanctioning" sounds as if USTTA are some sort of authority. Am I wrong ? 
Curious what they will do to you in China or North Korea if you run an unpolitical tournament 
Is that true ? Maybe that is why most USTTA members are afraid to speak against USTTA ?
When I asked what good is $75 , nobody answers

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Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Sanctioned tournaments are primarily for getting a rating.  If you don't care about ratings, then only play unsanctioned tournaments.  Sanctioned tournaments usually draw more participants so good luck finding unsanctioned tournaments especially if you're looking for higher level players.  

That is what I do not understand because you can easily submit your results to Ratings Central from your "unpolitical" tournaments and get everyone a free rating. Why does anyone even need USTTA which is only focused on juniors. They take my money to promote juniors whereas junior development money should come from USOC or government as is in most countries. 

In fact if someone started their own association (USA as well as international) with rules focused to club level non-professionals and also allowing frictionless pips for older player events  with a rating system and starting maybe $20 to $40 per year membership based on income, just to process ratings. (Indigent players with proof should have free membership)   that is sufficient then is it not ? Most washed up wannabe medal seekers will eventually play here and no need t worry about finding enough high level players. Most club players should be happy with 2200 or so washed up players from USTTA.  Who needs all the politics of USTTA . I have nothing against juniors per se but do not want to give my money for all the politics.   

Has the USTTA even reached even 10000 members ever ?  How sad 

They used to have $1000 lifetime membership. Even that was not bad What if you charged everyone over 50 years of age $500 lifetime ?  $750 if you are 40+ . $1000 if you are over 30 and $1500 if you are over 20 & say $5000 for family memberships (maximum 6 people) .  I may not be accurate here but insurance actuarial statistical analysts may give better numbers

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

If you don't like playing against juniors, then ask your tournament director to have age events in addition to rating events.
Since most older players don't join USTTA it would be hard to get the TDs ro run age events


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

what is your definition of 'unsanctioned'

Excellent point . I should start calling them "Unpolitical" tournaments.

From what I heard , USTTA can take legal action against you if you are a member and run "unpolitical" tournaments . 
THe word "sanctioning" sounds as if USTTA are some sort of authority. Am I wrong ? 
Curious what they will do to you in China or North Korea if you run an unpolitical tournament 
Is that true ? Maybe that is why most USTTA members are afraid to speak against USTTA ?
When I asked what good is $75 , nobody answers



You "heard" completely wrong. You (or anyone else) are free to run unsanctioned tournaments, and USATT players can play in them or not with no penalty. Decades ago there used to be restrictions, no more. I participate in both sanctioned and unsanctioned tournaments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2019 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

You "heard" completely wrong. You (or anyone else) are free to run unsanctioned tournaments, and USATT players can play in them or not with no penalty. Decades ago there used to be restrictions, no more. I participate in both sanctioned and unsanctioned tournaments.

Thanks . Good to know.  At least now going forward I hope all the TDs (Tournament Directors) who complain that USTTA is robbing them (I heard this complaint from many TDs over the years) start running "unpolitical" tournaments.  There is no need at all even for ratings if you run 2 tier round robins and age / gender events. Even if you need ratings you can get it from Ratings Central. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 10:23am
Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

That is what I do not understand because you can easily submit your results to Ratings Central from your "unpolitical" tournaments and get everyone a free rating.
But it's only meaningful if the majority of tournaments used it AND you get sufficient cross pollination from around the country.

Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

Why does anyone even need USTTA which is only focused on juniors.
That's only one part of their mission.  The other part of their mission is to promote the growth of table tennis.  Money spent on developing juniors who could potentially represent the US in international competitions seems to be a more efficient use of their money.

Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

They take my money to promote juniors whereas junior development money should come from USOC
If I'm not mistaken, that is how every sport gets funding from the USOC i.e. the national organizations develop promising players and the USOC only assists with the players who will represent the US in international competitions.  

Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

or government as is in most countries.
China isn't "most" countries.

Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

In fact if someone started their own association (USA as well as international) with rules focused to club level non-professionals and also allowing frictionless pips for older player events  with a rating system and starting maybe $20 to $40 per year membership based on income, just to process ratings. (Indigent players with proof should have free membership)   that is sufficient then is it not ? Most washed up wannabe medal seekers will eventually play here and no need t worry about finding enough high level players. Most club players should be happy with 2200 or so washed up players from USTTA.  Who needs all the politics of USTTA .  I have nothing against juniors per se but do not want to give my money for all the politics.   
If you feel that strongly about it, do it.  USATT started because of someone's vision...

Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

Has the USTTA even reached even 10000 members ever ?
I think it's peak was somewhere around that number.  

Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

Since most older players don't join USTTA
No point joining if they don't play tournaments...

Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

it would be hard to get the TDs ro run age events
Which isn't an issue for unsanctioned tournaments since you don't have to join USATT to play...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 10:35am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

what is your definition of 'unsanctioned'


You have to be careful. AFAIK, Sanctioned tournaments in the USA means that said tournament falls under some precise USTTA definition. Which usually means that national ranking points are involved.
A rough UK equivalent would be any tournament involving TTE ranking points.
However, as you know, UK local league and County associations do their own thing with local leagues, closed tournaments, plus tournaments with non-ITTF rules etc. In these cases, they sometimes don't meet the standards of a 1-4 star event but have the sanction/blessing of TTE through their member local league organisation.



Edited by Tinykin - 08/08/2019 at 10:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 3:41pm
Have you run a tournament before?  There is a lot to do to run a successful tournament.  Not all of it is something you need the USATT for.  Just the organization itself is a big task, especially if you haven't done anything like this before, or maybe just were a participant not an organizer.  Some tournaments submit their results to both the USATT and to Rating Central.

One thing the USATT brings to the table is insurance for the TT Players in sanctioned tournaments.  Depending on the venue that can be quite a big deal for the tournament director, one less thing to worry about. 

They also provide a mailing (emailing) list of members as I recall.  Which might not be an issue for a local event, but is helpful if you have ambition to draw in more players from a wider area. 

The tournament star system at least gives you an idea of what to expect, to get more stars the tournament (should) meet higher standards.  It also is a convenient way of scheduling so you don't have multiple tournaments on the same date in the same geographical area.

I'm sure there are other things that could be added to this list.  So they do offer some things, maybe you don't need all of them if any, and you are free to run your event with or without their sanctioning.  I think for local events you will find it easier than if you want to run a tournament and draw players from your region or from across the country.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

Have you run a tournament before? 
I respectfully invoke my rights under the Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution on the grounds that answering such questions may incriminate me."  I have no idea why I am pleading this on a Canadian forum and while I have no idea what even the fifth amendment is but feel the second amendment is exploited at an increasing rate and will continue to do so due to and regardless of any politicians, but sounds like fun 

Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

 Some tournaments submit their results to both the USATT and to Rating Central.
Maybe but there is no need for that

Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

One thing the USATT brings to the table is insurance for the TT Players in sanctioned tournaments. 
As USATT counsel, you may know the answer to this question
What if a club buys USATT club membership but only runs unpolitical tournaments.
Doesn't the insurance still cover the unpolitical tournaments ? 

This is the only benefit of a club joining USATT (even if  your answer is that the insurance does not cover unpolitical tournaments). I still see much benefit of a club player buying an individual membership (different from club membership).

Maybe USATT should charge graded club memberships.  More junior & olympic orietned clubs must pay higher. The 5 star rating should apply to clubs. Maybe clubs like Westchester, ICC, LilyYip, Maryland TTC etc pay $300 for 5 star membership but a 1 star club pay only $10. A club may always improve their prestige by paying upwards as high as they want for getting recognized a s star club. Clubs may may for this vanity


Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

They also provide a mailing (emailing) list of members as I recall.  
No need . Over period the TD can develop a better email list than USATT provides 

Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

The tournament star system at least gives you an idea of what to expect, to get more stars the tournament (should) meet higher standards.  
Most players have an idea of star rating level based on individual events offered & days played. 

Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

It also is a convenient way of scheduling so you don't have multiple tournaments on the same date in the same geographical area.

If I (oops I mean a TD)  am running an unpolitical tournament I can schedule whenever the hell I like 


The biggest advantage of unpolitical tournaments is that the TD can modify certain USATT rules and or illegally passed rules by ITTF as regulations etc , so that noone suffers unfair oppression & exploitation 


Edited by WangXui - 08/08/2019 at 11:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 5:24am
I just love a thread entitled "Is rating central inherently inaccurate?" which then makes absolutely zero attempt to deal with the question.  Instead everything just descends into yet another blah-blah-blah about what the USA does and doesn't do.  *yawn*
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 7:06am
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

I just love a thread entitled "Is rating central inherently inaccurate?" which then makes absolutely zero attempt to deal with the question. ...

Sure, but that's mostly OP's fault. Love the choice of words: 'unpolitical' tournaments etc. His/hers other thread is a gem as well. 

I think I know where it's headed...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 10:52am
Conjecture, misinformation, and opinion stated as fact.  Suspected Troll posts!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

Conjecture, misinformation, and opinion stated as fact.  Suspected Troll posts!

Can you post to clarify which one is which & I will accept or correct them . But when you make blanket statements without being specific, all I can think is that you will assume the forum readers will take your word for it as to a new member and can make their own  conjecture about wrong items. I don't think you are playing with a full deck then.

I also asked you to specific question  about insurance but you chose to conveniently ignore it.

I understand your need to defend the USATT but I wish you did it with some clarity instead of blindly letting accusations fly. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 1:08pm
And when you make fun and spend more time in your post pleading the 5th, don't expect serious answers.  Looks it up yourself.
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Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

And when you make fun and spend more time in your post pleading the 5th, don't expect serious answers.  Looks it up yourself.
You are putting words in my mouth without answering because I have given a way for TDs to run unpolitical tournaments using USATT insurance

I don't understand how I am making fun of you . 

Or am I making fun of the second amendment & the constitution ? Absolutely .
Feel free to tell me to go back where I came from LOL 

I am not Ted Cruz who memorized a now totally f---ed up constitution when he was in his mother's womb, I am talking about a constitution which has not evolved with times while many other countries have used US Constitution as a base model (leaving out many key insanities such as probably the second amendment)  and made theirs better.

I am not sure many constitutions allow for ridicule & abuse of minorities under the name of  free speech.
And I am not sure many countries are so lax on gangs while the very definition of a gang is unlawful assembly ( a gang is definitely not a bunch of middle aged women assembled to read poetry). And even more ridiculous is the part where you  get convicted and get to join a gang  when you go to prison and get released 10 times more powerful & violent before you went in.   

And I take it you won't be a little more specific about all my lies & false statements etc in my previous posts as you claim  (May be because there aren't any ?) 



Edited by WangXui - 08/09/2019 at 7:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 11:11pm
Why do you expect anyone to answer anything you post when you won't even answer simple questions put to you.  Instead you deflect, and go off on a rant about something unrelated to the original post.  I get it you don't like the USATT, feel free to start your own group.

And you're welcome to post on here, you might get better responses if you lose your attitude. Meanwhile you just have fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2019 at 2:12am
Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

Why do you expect anyone to answer anything you post when you won't even answer simple questions put to you.  Instead you deflect, and go off on a rant about something unrelated to the original post.  I get it you don't like the USATT, feel free to start your own group.

And you're welcome to post on here, you might get better responses if you lose your attitude. Meanwhile you just have fun.

You are the one having fun at my expense . 
You just won't answer about wahta falsehoods I stated 

Seems to think you can talk down to me simply because you are the USATT counsel .

Anyway never mind. Don't answer my simple questions 
We can go around in circles all day 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2019 at 4:23am
Dear WangXui,

There are many, many topics on this forum, and many, many posters.  The topics range from purely equipment related through topics on players and tournaments (primarily ITTF) all the way to "Why is table tennis in the USA so screwed up?" 

I'm particularly intrigued by the last of these, because posters from other countries rarely, if ever, complain about their national associations.  But the USA?  Oh, boy!  It seems like every second week someone is having a moan.  So, at one level, your thread is familiar territory for most of us.  However, there are some interesting distinctions it might be worth pointing out.

Firstly, the topic title for this thread is deeply misleading.  This thread is not about Ratings Central and its inaccuracies.  Rather it is a thread about USATT.

Secondly, this thread doesn't discuss USATT in the way that most threads do.  By that, I mean most threads are conducted in a relatively civil manner, without claims and counter-claims about who's having fun at whose expense, or blind accusations, and to the best of my knowledge, none has ever gone off on a rant about the USA gun laws.

Do you see how there might be a problem here?  Above, someone is suggesting the possibility of trolling.  I wouldn't go that far; however, I am inclined to suggest you might need to dial back the hostility and focus instead on the topic at hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavenKrugz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2019 at 5:15am
Sorry I was trying to post about my setup as required
Wrong Thread


Edited by DavenKrugz - 08/10/2019 at 5:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2019 at 11:23pm
To address the topic:

RatingsCentral is inherently accurate over time because it expresses standard deviation and acts upon it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2019 at 2:29am
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

I'm particularly intrigued by the last of these, because posters from other countries rarely, if ever, complain about their national associations.  But the USA?  Oh, boy!  It seems like every second week someone is having a moan.  So, at one level, your thread is familiar territory for most of us.  However, there are some interesting distinctions it might be worth pointing out.

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