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pongfugrasshopper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2019 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Wang Chen has 3 clubs to run as well as take care of a small child.  The HPD made it clear that there was nothing she could do to get the selection outside of winning the trials.  There was even a comment about how even if she did win the trials she wouldn't be playing.  With that being said, maybe she follows your advice, and goes to Europe to play.  The HPD could have said "no you are not allowed to enter ITTF tournaments" or "wow, you did great.  Too bad you are so old, we must look towards our glorious future without you!"  In either case it made absolutely no sense for her to go to abroad to play ITTF events.  
It's codified on the USATT website that if you win the US Olympic Trial, you will go to Tokyo so it doesn't matter what someone said this or that about she can't go even if she wins the trial.  That's completely contrary to what's actually stated on USATT's website.  The same goes for the world ranking race.  If she has the highest ranking in the US then she's going to Tokyo.  No one, not the HPD, Anne Cribbs, Virginia Sung, or anyone else can deny her going to Tokyo if she wins either one.  I mean they let Wally Green play in ITTF tournaments all those years past, and I don't think he was ever a National Team member.

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

I think trials, or a well defined series of competitions like alphapong suggested, are at least fair.  Everyone has a chance to make the team.  Everyone knows what is expected to make the team.  Once you start examining things subjectively, politics and other factors can creep in.  If you don't think favoritism and politics are a part of the USATT, then you must have not been paying attention much over the years.  For the record, I like Sean but with that stated, I think position on teams should be earned through clearly defined rules.  Once you start having selection based on bodies of work or whatnot, things become nebulous. 
An Olympic Trial is one method used in our selection procedure.  But it doesn't have to be the only method.  And what we're doing is not something that's unprecedented.  I think China is completely discretionary selection.  Japan has a World Ranking Race for 2 spots; and 1 spot is discretionary selection based on whatever criteria they feel best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2019 at 11:16pm
Hi,

I was inspired by this thread and thought about a possible strategic change for USATT. I am not a leader in anything and it was just random thoughts that formed into a possible future that makes sense to me since it's on par with what animals including human do. 

Does it make sense to you?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2019 at 6:30am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Hi,

I was inspired by this thread and thought about a possible strategic change for USATT. I am not a leader in anything and it was just random thoughts that formed into a possible future that makes sense to me since it's on par with what animals including human do. 

Does it make sense to you?

I responded on your thread.

For this thread I'd like to point out that Sean does mention a desire for clarity on the priorities of selection criteria which is a good thing:

"It would be useful to clearly list the priorities (International Results, US 
Nationals, Ranking events, Doubles Pairings) in order of importance or weight for the players. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2019 at 11:37am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Hi,

I was inspired by this thread and thought about a possible strategic change for USATT. <span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">I am not a leader in anything and it was just random thoughts that formed into a possible future that makes sense to me since it's on par with what animals including human do. </span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Does it make sense to you?</span>


I responded on your thread.

For this thread I'd like to point out that Sean does mention a desire for clarity on the priorities of selection criteria which is a good thing:

"It would be useful to clearly list the priorities (International Results, US 
Nationals, Ranking events, Doubles Pairings) in order of importance or weight for the players. "


Yes, objective measurements. It's nice to list that you have criteria but if you don't tell players that first place in world ranking is worth XX, second place in ranking is worth XX minus 20, etc. it is still all subjective. If you can just list 5 things, then subjectively pick which ones are "important" players have no clue what to do to make the team.

Edit to clarify: in a proper system anyone should be able to sit down with the measurements and criteria and calculate an exact score for all players.

Edited by jfolsen - 10/17/2019 at 11:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2019 at 2:22pm
My 2 cents

a) the criteria for team selection must be public and clear, with absolutely no leeway left for misinterpretation

b) the best way - imho (but I am sure there is difference in opinion and other systems which more or less work) - is to select some portion of the team (say, 2 out of 4) using team trials, whose selection criteria and match setup must be logical, fair and specified well in advance. The rest of the team could be decided by combination of WR/USATT rating and/or National Team coach's input - again, as long as the rules are public, and completely formalized well in advance.

There is NO such thing as the best selection system (as well as NO such thing as the best rating system) but there is some absolutely necessary amount of openness, fairness and logic that has to be set in stone and then adhered to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2019 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Hi,

I was inspired by this thread and thought about a possible strategic change for USATT. <span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">I am not a leader in anything and it was just random thoughts that formed into a possible future that makes sense to me since it's on par with what animals including human do. </span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Does it make sense to you?</span>


I responded on your thread.

For this thread I'd like to point out that Sean does mention a desire for clarity on the priorities of selection criteria which is a good thing:

"It would be useful to clearly list the priorities (International Results, US 
Nationals, Ranking events, Doubles Pairings) in order of importance or weight for the players. "


Yes, objective measurements. It's nice to list that you have criteria but if you don't tell players that first place in world ranking is worth XX, second place in ranking is worth XX minus 20, etc. it is still all subjective. If you can just list 5 things, then subjectively pick which ones are "important" players have no clue what to do to make the team.

Edit to clarify: in a proper system anyone should be able to sit down with the measurements and criteria and calculate an exact score for all players.
yes, in addition to the regular gains/losses in the regular USATT rating, a ranking system dedicated to the trials should be put in place, based on the results in the trials events only but...

...Question: assuming this is a good idea, if a USATT rated match or an ITTF official match happen between 2 people belonging to the US trials crowd, should we consider some reward/losses in that hypothetical trials ranking system? I think yes.



Edited by stiltt - 10/17/2019 at 2:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2019 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

It's codified on the USATT website that if you win the US Olympic Trial, you will go to Tokyo so it doesn't matter what someone said this or that about she can't go even if she wins the trial.  That's completely contrary to what's actually stated on USATT's website.  The same goes for the world ranking race.  If she has the highest ranking in the US then she's going to Tokyo.  No one, not the HPD, Anne Cribbs, Virginia Sung, or anyone else can deny her going to Tokyo if she wins either one.  I mean they let Wally Green play in ITTF tournaments all those years past, and I don't think he was ever a National Team member.


The USATT has denied people with higher ratings than Wally to play in ITTF events.  They can do whatever they want if they decide to.   Personally, I think the USATT should let anyone play in ITTF events if there are open spots for Americans to play.  If the event is full then take the top ranked Americans to fill the positions.  It might look bad to have sub 2800 level players playing, but then again most of our players lose in qualifying rounds anyway.  I also think it is better to have less than elite players (sub 2800) play than no players playing at all. 

The "highest ranked player goes to the Olympics" is a new rule in place after Wang Chen filed her lawsuit.  It used to be that a player had to be ranked top 16 in the world to automatically qualify.  Being top 16 is a much stricter requirement than being top American. 

And yes, if you win the trials you get to go to Tokyo.  However, I am not sure that this guarantees you actually playing in Tokyo.  Right now the US has 3 spots for men and 3 spots for women.  That means 2 can play singles and there is also some doubles component.  I am not sure that the winner of the trials could be forced to sit out the singles and doubles with the other 2 players playing.  A super snide comment directed at Chen was that even if she won the trials the only thing she would be doing in Tokyo is going shopping. 

Finally, no matter how things are decided, the only way the USA is ever going to make progress is to dramatically increase the player base and have multiple training centers where people can train 6-8 hours a day, everyday.  Even at the 2200 level it is hard to find dedicated people to play with and the higher rated you are, the harder it is to find good  training partners. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2019 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

And yes, if you win the trials you get to go to Tokyo.  However, I am not sure that this guarantees you actually playing in Tokyo.  Right now the US has 3 spots for men and 3 spots for women.  That means 2 can play singles and there is also some doubles component.  I am not sure that the winner of the trials could be forced to sit out the singles and doubles with the other 2 players playing.  A super snide comment directed at Chen was that even if she won the trials the only thing she would be doing in Tokyo is going shopping.  

Anyone who knows the Olympic team format would know that no player can "sit out" a team match. 

BTW, Danny Seemiller has a better chance of winning the 2020 trials than Wang Chen, even if she pulls out her best illegal serves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2019 at 8:17pm
Silly me, I didn't know there was a team component.  I just thought it was doubles and singles.  Strange that the person then made such a comment about Chen going shopping.  They no longer work for the USATT, so I guess their comment doesn't matter anymore.  I was using the comment to explain to pongfugrasshopper about the climate and why Chen wouldn't play overseas.

As for Chen's chances, I think she will do fine at the trials.  A lot depends if the USATT sticks with the current  format and who among Jennifer and Lily has the higher world ranking.  If her lawsuit is successful and the trials determine the entire team, I think the team will be Lily, Liu Juan and Chen.  If they keep the current format, Liu Juan would have to be the favorite at the trials.  At the last Westchester, Liu Juan beat Chen 12,-14,8,5.  Then if Jennifer is higher ranked they will pick Lily.  If Lily is higher ranked I am not sure who they would pick among Amy and Jennifer. 

As far as Danny goes, I am a huge fan.  I hope he does well! Go Danny!




Edited by Lightspin - 10/17/2019 at 8:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nonsmoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/29/2019 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by alphapong alphapong wrote:

On the up but a point to prove

That proves only the points that you've made but not the points you haven't made. Smile Perhaps because you don't know the full background story? Or perhaps you're selecting only those arguments that support your bias. But why  on earth would you do that?  Wink


Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

From that link, he had a strong emphasis on hard work whereas the athletes wanted to focus more on technique.  Now of course you have to have both, but it's well known that the Chinese and Japanese women are some of the hardest working in the world and of course dominate the sport like no other.  So he's not actually wrong in that regard. 



100% correct.

Before he was appointed, most players lived in their hometown and practised somewhere in that area (today, P. Solja practices with a regional, amateur mens team) and the players only met whenever the TTA assembled them for a training session every once in a while. When he became head coach, he demanded that the players move to the city where the national training centre is located to make sure that they train there with the other national players (and many other professional players) on the highest possible level. He also emphasized physical fitness. These demands plans were approved by the german TTA before he was appointed. A. Solja left to play for Austria after she was told that she wouldn't have a chance in the national team with her equipment (which turned out to be true).
Needless to say, the ladies weren't pleased and he was moved to another position. Sometime later, he quit the job to work for another association.
It makes perfectly sense for him to quit the job as HPD. If you're eager, highly qualified and searching for perfection then working for the mess called USATT is not very "rewarding".

 
Btw: The Solja sisters (and her father - like many tabletennis parents) have a reputation of being difficult to work with.



Edited by Nonsmoker - 12/07/2019 at 11:59am
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