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Dealing with wide FH balls

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    Posted: 08/31/2019 at 8:18pm
Do you land your playing foot before you hit the ball (ie looping the ball while you're in air), or land on your playing foot  (beyond where the ball will be), then hit the ball while you have both feet on the ground?

Edited by blahness - 08/31/2019 at 8:19pm
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Hit ball before landing, using crossover footwork. Video from PingSkills on Crossover Footwork: https://youtu.be/hTLuhix7KVo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 10:27pm
I was also told by my coach to hit the ball before you land. I don't think it's possible to make it in time. If you could land then hit the ball, the ball probably wasn't that wide or fast, or you were already in position for a wide ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I was also told by my coach to hit the ball before you land. I don't think it's possible to make it in time. If you could land then hit the ball, the ball probably wasn't that wide or fast, or you were already in position for a wide ball.

But in your mind, do you think to land first before hitting the ball or hit the ball then land? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 10:55pm
I was told by my hitting partner who has much better footwork, to try my best to land first before hitting, because you'll be in a more stable position and you can recover faster. Hitting before you land is kinda a last resort, and you'll recover slower because you spend extra time landing...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/01/2019 at 6:57pm
I think if you're able to land first then hit, you should. Though it could mean that you're not using the crossover footwork for the right ball. I do it sometimes. Crossover when the ball isn't as wide as or as far as I think.

In my mind I'm just thinking of hitting the ball. I don't think about hitting it before or after landing. But my coach told me to hit it before landing when I last practiced it. I was hitting it after landing a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/01/2019 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I think if you're able to land first then hit, you should. Though it could mean that you're not using the crossover footwork for the right ball. I do it sometimes. Crossover when the ball isn't as wide as or as far as I think.

In my mind I'm just thinking of hitting the ball. I don't think about hitting it before or after landing. But my coach told me to hit it before landing when I last practiced it. I was hitting it after landing a lot.

Hmm quite interesting... i've asked around and there's quite some split answers to this.... it seems that there's advantages to each. If you insist on landing before you hit, you'll be slower to contact the ball but you can do it from a more stable position and you can recover faster. If you hit before you land you can contact the ball earlier (to cut off potential angles) and handle wider balls but you'll have a less stable stroke and will recover slower. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/01/2019 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I think if you're able to land first then hit, you should. Though it could mean that you're not using the crossover footwork for the right ball. I do it sometimes. Crossover when the ball isn't as wide as or as far as I think.

In my mind I'm just thinking of hitting the ball. I don't think about hitting it before or after landing. But my coach told me to hit it before landing when I last practiced it. I was hitting it after landing a lot.
You seem to be good at rallying, could this be the reason?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 2:35am
A very prominent coach in the area recommends watching Ma Lin doing the cross step:


The coach also insists you want to be airborne as you contact the ball so that you can freely rotate your body into the ball as you are traveling sideways.  Think of your right elbow going to your left knee (if you are right handed). 

Ryu Seung Min is also airborne when he does the cross step:

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Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

A very prominent coach in the area recommends watching Ma Lin doing the cross step:


The coach also insists you want to be airborne as you contact the ball so that you can freely rotate your body into the ball as you are traveling sideways.  Think of your right elbow going to your left knee (if you are right handed). 

Ryu Seung Min is also airborne when he does the cross step:


I think it's more of a training and mentality thing, do you train the cross step  (hit before  landing) for balls to the wide FH, or do you train the shuffle step (land then hit) for balls to the wide FH and let the cross step happen naturally (or not at all)...

I watched some Lin Yun-ju matches and it seems that he always prefers to use to shuffle step (land before hit) most of the time, whereas CNT players tend to use cross step quite extensively...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 5:48am
I do think rallying is one of my strong points for my level. A lot of it is because I lack kill power, which results in more balls coming back. But what I feel is very important is constantly moving and recovering. Try to adjust your feet before and after every ball. I do a lot of "light hopping" during practice too, which helps.

If you can do the shuffle step and still make the shot with good technique, I think that's superior. The point of the crossover is for those times when you can't. So if you're making it, it's probably because the ball isn't that demanding. I don't actually practice the crossover a lot, but one of the previous times I did, I felt like that was an issue. I wasn't hitting the ball while still in the air because the ball just wasn't wide enough. So it felt like I was forcibly adding the crossover step to practice it, but not for the right ball. Maybe you're experiencing this? When the ball is truly wide, it'll feel right I think to hit it before you land.


Edited by mickd - 09/02/2019 at 5:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 6:11am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I do think rallying is one of my strong points for my level. A lot of it is because I lack kill power, which results in more balls coming back. But what I feel is very important is constantly moving and recovering. Try to adjust your feet before and after every ball. I do a lot of "light hopping" during practice too, which helps.

If you can do the shuffle step and still make the shot with good technique, I think that's superior. The point of the crossover is for those times when you can't. So if you're making it, it's probably because the ball isn't that demanding. I don't actually practice the crossover a lot, but one of the previous times I did, I felt like that was an issue. I wasn't hitting the ball while still in the air because the ball just wasn't wide enough. So it felt like I was forcibly adding the crossover step to practice it, but not for the right ball. Maybe you're experiencing this? When the ball is truly wide, it'll feel right I think to hit it before you land.

Thanks, that's what I thought as well...for me I've always used crossover footwork but I suspect it's a reason why I don't recover well after a FH loop on the wide FH...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 6:49am
No worries! Oh and I forgot to mention that I also play spin based, which generally results in consistent but less powerful balls. Great for getting into a rally ha. You've mentioned your serve and third ball being strengths, so you probably play with more overall power than me, resulting in faster balls, which result in faster balls coming back at you, which results in less time to recover. You gotta really step up the recovery time in those cases! Instant recovery! Or take a little more of a step back after your third ball to give you more time.

Your post kinda reminded me of this from my practice last week. Nothing to do with the crossover, though. Not my proudest moment. But it was me overcompensating trying to recover so that I'd be good to hit any backhand balls that come, but my coach was just mucking around with me continually hitting them to my forehand. I was slightly late to every ball. But sometimes it's also important just to get the ball back.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 8:08am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

No worries! Oh and I forgot to mention that I also play spin based, which generally results in consistent but less powerful balls. Great for getting into a rally ha. You've mentioned your serve and third ball being strengths, so you probably play with more overall power than me, resulting in faster balls, which result in faster balls coming back at you, which results in less time to recover. You gotta really step up the recovery time in those cases! Instant recovery! Or take a little more of a step back after your third ball to give you more time.

Your post kinda reminded me of this from my practice last week. Nothing to do with the crossover, though. Not my proudest moment. But it was me overcompensating trying to recover so that I'd be good to hit any backhand balls that come, but my coach was just mucking around with me continually hitting them to my forehand. I was slightly late to every ball. But sometimes it's also important just to get the ball back.

Thanks a lot! You're one of the most pleasant members on the forum for sure... that video looked awkward but you actually got all the balls back which is definitely testament to your rallying ability...
 
I definitely need to slow down my game a bit and hit with more spin and consistency just like you, play for more the rally stage. Too much 3rd balling and tactical gambling is bad for technique lol... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 8:55am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

A very prominent coach in the area recommends watching Ma Lin doing the cross step:


The coach also insists you want to be airborne as you contact the ball so that you can freely rotate your body into the ball as you are traveling sideways.  Think of your right elbow going to your left knee (if you are right handed). 

Ryu Seung Min is also airborne when he does the cross step:


I think it's more of a training and mentality thing, do you train the cross step  (hit before  landing) for balls to the wide FH, or do you train the shuffle step (land then hit) for balls to the wide FH and let the cross step happen naturally (or not at all)...

I watched some Lin Yun-ju matches and it seems that he always prefers to use to shuffle step (land before hit) most of the time, whereas CNT players tend to use cross step quite extensively...

The shuffle step will only work when you know where the ball is going, which is Lin Yun Ju's greatest strength, his ability to read and control the game.
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Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I do think rallying is one of my strong points for my level. A lot of it is because I lack kill power, which results in more balls coming back. But what I feel is very important is constantly moving and recovering. Try to adjust your feet before and after every ball. I do a lot of "light hopping" during practice too, which helps.

If you can do the shuffle step and still make the shot with good technique, I think that's superior. The point of the crossover is for those times when you can't. So if you're making it, it's probably because the ball isn't that demanding. I don't actually practice the crossover a lot, but one of the previous times I did, I felt like that was an issue. I wasn't hitting the ball while still in the air because the ball just wasn't wide enough. So it felt like I was forcibly adding the crossover step to practice it, but not for the right ball. Maybe you're experiencing this? When the ball is truly wide, it'll feel right I think to hit it before you land.

When you crossover to hit a ball that isn't crossover distance away, it is the semi-cross and it is a legitimate move especially if you want finishing power on a forehand ball that isn't far away and surprises you as hitting the ball in the air gives you good rotation.  As a reluctant serve and third ball player, it is one of my favorite moves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 9:00am
An old video.


Usually, for all these forehand shots, you need to start the backswing when the opponent touches the ball.  If you can jump into position and wait for the shot, great.  But if it is a fast shot, you need to hit while moving and that is not going to happen if you move first and then loop.  Unless your anticipation and movement are ridiculously good like Lin Yun Ju,


Edited by NextLevel - 09/02/2019 at 9:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 9:09am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

No worries! Oh and I forgot to mention that I also play spin based, which generally results in consistent but less powerful balls. Great for getting into a rally ha. You've mentioned your serve and third ball being strengths, so you probably play with more overall power than me, resulting in faster balls, which result in faster balls coming back at you, which results in less time to recover. You gotta really step up the recovery time in those cases! Instant recovery! Or take a little more of a step back after your third ball to give you more time.

Your post kinda reminded me of this from my practice last week. Nothing to do with the crossover, though. Not my proudest moment. But it was me overcompensating trying to recover so that I'd be good to hit any backhand balls that come, but my coach was just mucking around with me continually hitting them to my forehand. I was slightly late to every ball. But sometimes it's also important just to get the ball back.

  

The practice is good, and you got the ball back.  I suspect you know that the main problem is that you are not waiting for him to hit the ball.  Just as important -you aren't collapsing the right leg or pushing off it to get into the backswing, so you are stuck hitting a decent but less than optimal shot with little rotation.  If you worked harder on using your feet to set the forehand backswing even when short of time, you would get a better shot even if you couldn't play the next one.  The problem shows up even on the first shot so it is something work on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 10:04am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Thanks a lot! You're one of the most pleasant members on the forum for sure... that video looked awkward but you actually got all the balls back which is definitely testament to your rallying ability...
 
I definitely need to slow down my game a bit and hit with more spin and consistency just like you, play for more the rally stage. Too much 3rd balling and tactical gambling is bad for technique lol... 

Thank you. It was definitely one of the most awkward rallies I've ever done!

For me it's the opposite. Recently I've been practicing more finishing power instead. I've got some very nice third ball attacks now. They happen once in a blue moon, but they're there :)
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

An old video.


Usually, for all these forehand shots, you need to start the backswing when the opponent touches the ball.  If you can jump into position and wait for the shot, great.  But if it is a fast shot, you need to hit while moving and that is not going to happen if you move first and then loop.  Unless your anticipation and movement are ridiculously good like Lin Yun Ju,

First time seeing that video, and my old coach who I did the crossover footwork with said the exact same things as Brett!

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The practice is good, and you got the ball back.  I suspect you know that the main problem is that you are not waiting for him to hit the ball.  Just as important -you aren't collapsing the right leg or pushing off it to get into the backswing, so you are stuck hitting a decent but less than optimal shot with little rotation.  If you worked harder on using your feet to set the forehand backswing even when short of time, you would get a better shot even if you couldn't play the next one.  The problem shows up even on the first shot so it is something work on.

Thanks! Yeah, those balls definitely aren't my proudest ha. There are a lot of problems there. I could definitely go for a better shot if I took more time. But even the first shot, I misread where the ball was going, which is why even that shot was awkward. It was random from the get go. And from there I was one tempo behind the whole time. I probably should have forgone recovering back to the middle once to get the tempo back on track.

I'll remember next time I get into a rally like that to rotate more. I usually do... this video was an extreme case ha.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 10:37am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

An old video.


Usually, for all these forehand shots, you need to start the backswing when the opponent touches the ball.  If you can jump into position and wait for the shot, great.  But if it is a fast shot, you need to hit while moving and that is not going to happen if you move first and then loop.  Unless your anticipation and movement are ridiculously good like Lin Yun Ju,

First time seeing that video, and my old coach who I did the crossover footwork with said the exact same things as Brett!

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The practice is good, and you got the ball back.  I suspect you know that the main problem is that you are not waiting for him to hit the ball.  Just as important -you aren't collapsing the right leg or pushing off it to get into the backswing, so you are stuck hitting a decent but less than optimal shot with little rotation.  If you worked harder on using your feet to set the forehand backswing even when short of time, you would get a better shot even if you couldn't play the next one.  The problem shows up even on the first shot so it is something work on.

Thanks! Yeah, those balls definitely aren't my proudest ha. There are a lot of problems there. I could definitely go for a better shot if I took more time. But even the first shot, I misread where the ball was going, which is why even that shot was awkward. It was random from the get go. And from there I was one tempo behind the whole time. I probably should have forgone recovering back to the middle once to get the tempo back on track.

I'll remember next time I get into a rally like that to rotate more. I usually do... this video was an extreme case ha.


Don't think of it as rotating more.  Think of it more as always setting the feet to play a forehand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 11:24am
I think both can be a very good coaching method to get people to think about it in a different way. Setting the feet will likely achieve it better for many people. I've also seen people who set their feet well, but lack rotation. For me, rotating equals setting the legs because I generally do both together. I can think about it that way though, since they'll both work for me!

Actually, since I started playing table tennis in Japan, I usually think of things in Japanese terms. The term I usually use is just "prepare" for the shot, which for me entails setting the legs and rotating.


Edited by mickd - 09/02/2019 at 11:28am
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Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Actually, since I started playing table tennis in Japan, I usually think of things in Japanese terms. The term I usually use is just "prepare" for the shot, which for me entails setting the legs and rotating.

Ha! My coach, who is Chinese, always says that I did not "prepare" for the next shot. Unfortunately I excel at that. Too much golf in me. (I like to watch the ball). Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2019 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Thanks a lot! You're one of the most pleasant members on the forum for sure... that video looked awkward but you actually got all the balls back which is definitely testament to your rallying ability...
 
I definitely need to slow down my game a bit and hit with more spin and consistency just like you, play for more the rally stage. Too much 3rd balling and tactical gambling is bad for technique lol... 

Thank you. It was definitely one of the most awkward rallies I've ever done!

For me it's the opposite. Recently I've been practicing more finishing power instead. I've got some very nice third ball attacks now. They happen once in a blue moon, but they're there :)

Wow nice... Yeah as a lefty your 3rd balls could have some nasty placements to set you up well for the upcoming rallies. For me I have the mindset of if it comes back I'm not gonna win the rallies against those rallying monsters I play with (they all hit hard and consistently whole table Ouch), so might as well just dial up the power to reduce the chances of it coming back... Its also a bit hard when I play matches because my serves are very spinny which tends to hurt my 3rd ball if they manage to control the return well. I think I need to start from the very basics now, to train up moving to various places to slow loop and training footwork. How did you go about training up your footwork?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2019 at 2:42am
Oh, I know how that feels too. Sometimes I end up doing some pretty spinny serves, and the type of player I struggle to open against are the ones that direct the ball using my own spin. It always looks like they're side swiping the ball and a weird spin, hard to read ball comes back.

For slow looping, a lot of it is timing. I have a tendency to loop balls as they're falling in their trajectory, which generally results in slow and spinny balls. I've been practicing the early timing loops recently, and I found that you need to use the body differently. The slow loops usually have you starting lower and going diagonally up as you hit the ball. The fast loops need you to start with your racket much higher, going forward and over the ball. I struggled with this at first because I always felt like the ball would just fall into the net if I did that against underspin, but if your timing is early, it works.

For footwork, since the beginning I always tried to move. Like really really move. Move way more than I should. Sometimes I'd bounce on the spot 3 or more times between shots. I often overcompensated and moved more than I needed to, resulting in being late to the ball or getting too close to the ball. But overtime, as I learned to read the ball better and move more efficiently, my footwork started become more precise. And because I always applied the "move before and after each ball" mentality, it helped me to keep moving.

You've probably seen my other thread, but have a quick look at it again:

Look at the first video in the OP. Go to about 13 minutes in when I'm doing some sort of "footwork". That was when I first started playing. You can see me "bouncing" a few times between balls.

And for the last year I've had the chance to do some footwork multiball most weeks, which is really nice :)


Edited by mickd - 09/03/2019 at 2:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2019 at 5:36am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Oh, I know how that feels too. Sometimes I end up doing some pretty spinny serves, and the type of player I struggle to open against are the ones that direct the ball using my own spin. It always looks like they're side swiping the ball and a weird spin, hard to read ball comes back.

For slow looping, a lot of it is timing. I have a tendency to loop balls as they're falling in their trajectory, which generally results in slow and spinny balls. I've been practicing the early timing loops recently, and I found that you need to use the body differently. The slow loops usually have you starting lower and going diagonally up as you hit the ball. The fast loops need you to start with your racket much higher, going forward and over the ball. I struggled with this at first because I always felt like the ball would just fall into the net if I did that against underspin, but if your timing is early, it works.

For footwork, since the beginning I always tried to move. Like really really move. Move way more than I should. Sometimes I'd bounce on the spot 3 or more times between shots. I often overcompensated and moved more than I needed to, resulting in being late to the ball or getting too close to the ball. But overtime, as I learned to read the ball better and move more efficiently, my footwork started become more precise. And because I always applied the "move before and after each ball" mentality, it helped me to keep moving.

You've probably seen my other thread, but have a quick look at it again:

Look at the first video in the OP. Go to about 13 minutes in when I'm doing some sort of "footwork". That was when I first started playing. You can see me "bouncing" a few times between balls.

And for the last year I've had the chance to do some footwork multiball most weeks, which is really nice :)

Yeah I hate those players who do weird things to the ball too... especially a few who actually train deceiving body movements, nightmare to attack those! Definitely need to go back and train footwork so that I don't just run from end to end like a headless chicken!

Really envious of your training opportunities, it sounds so good!


Edited by blahness - 09/03/2019 at 5:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/04/2019 at 1:51pm
 

If time stamp doesn't work FF to 1m15s



Edited by V-Griper - 09/04/2019 at 2:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/04/2019 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

 

If time stamp doesn't work FF to 1m15s


Yeah it's quite obvious that CNT players all use the cross step very efficiently...but it seems if the ball is closer they don't do it. 

I asked around in my club about the cross step and it seems most good male players use the cross step extensively, a lot of women try not to (perhaps a different game?!)
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