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Kanak now world #22

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 12:48am
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Look at Kanak's record over the last few years.  It simply isn't good enough to be top 50 under the old system.  Way too many loses to random people and too few victories over people in the top 50.  It is just that simple.  He does well in the 2 Pan Am events, gets an invite to the world cup and is already 40th in the new ranking system.  He plays the worlds and jumps to 30.  He then has 4 more events where he scores a few points in smaller events and jumps to 22.  I hope Kanak keeps training and improves but to say he is the 22nd best player or even in the top 50 currently is not credible. 
#22 is just for seeding purposes in a closed system, it does not mean he is in the best 22 players in the world. ITTF build their seeding system and they don't care who is better, they want a reliable and predictable seeding system for their events, that's it. A ranking has nothing to do with any level of play, it has to do with the commitment to a system that's growing towards a stable state I hope.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 8:13am
Originally posted by Charlie Brown Charlie Brown wrote:

where he is right now can only make him better...WR be dammed how many Americans get this chance?

this thread is just full of negative thinking, you all should be proud to have an American up there...
I don’t think it is negative thinking. It’s just being real. I know there will be biased in favor of Jha since this is a US based forum. But we have to stay consistent when talking about the rankings. People also said the same things about other professional players, so in my opinion it is fine to do so. And just because someone says that Jha isn’t a top 50 player doesn’t mean he is saying that Jha sucks. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 8:53am
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Unlikely Kanak would be top 100 by Elo rating. Definitely not top 50.

I don't see why he wouldn't be top 100 or top 50. Top 30 is a stretch for sure, but Kanak has played well vs and beaten many of the top European players around his age and playing level.   No matter how overrated or significantly older you are, you don't beat Lin Yun Ju by accident.  His not doing well on the tour is neither here nor there when you look at the quality of the players he usually loses to.
In the last year I think (but am not sure) he's lost to more players outside the top 100 than he's beaten players inside the top 100. Elo calculations would involve a lot more than that of course, but that's why I suspect he'd be rated outside the top 100. No chance he'd be top 50. Not to say he isn't a promising young player with some great wins, but his current ranking is too far out line with his results to be taken seriously. I get that it might help with selling the sport in North America, but I think to avoid false advertising there should be at least some tenuous connection between player rankings and reality.

Given that we do have a rough idea of where many of the players he lost to deuce in the 7th who are supposedly out of the top.100 are truly ranked (Anton Kallberg, Cristan Pletea) and where some of the players who he beat in the past year (Lin Yun Ju, Xu Yingbin, Gustavo Tsuboi, Eric Jouti, Kiril Gerassimenko) are also ranked, I think being certain he is not in the top 50 is a bit puzzling. If we are using Elo, we have to think about Elos.  If we are using rankings from today, we have to think in those terms while converting. We can't eat our cake and have it.  Those are all top 100 players or better in the old system.

For you, what is the definitive match or set of matches that confirms to you he is not in the top 50?

I agree 22 is likely too high but where you lose me is making it sound like Kanak loses to bad players on a regular basis. 
Hard to go match by match and argue about the real level of each player at that moment. Elo is intended to reflect actual playing strength, so based on his results what do you think is Kanak's current level? Where does he stand now in Bundesliga? Didn't he just lose to a couple of good but not top 50 players (Ort, Drinkhall)? Where would he stand in Chinese Super League? Japan, Korea, etc. I think the numbers add up quickly to well over 50 players who would be favored to beat him. I think it's probably over 100. For some perspective, remember that Eugene Wang at his strongest never cracked the top 50, and Eugene might still be favored to beat Kanak today.

Knowing foreigners who have played in German leagues, it is one of the toughest experiences you can have and it can make you feel terrible with the pressure.   There is a limit on the number of foreigners and it was Kanak's very first match in that setting.   I cut him slack.

Drinkhall is definitely top 50 to me but opinions may vary.  Ort is not, but again, that is neither here nor there.  Eugene didn't play enough to crack top 50 but I think he was easily. Top 50 foreigners don't play in the Superleague, that is for more like top 10 or 15.

And yes, maybe I am biased but my point is that picking 50 players is not really the standard.  It is more looking at the performance level of the player and getting to a point where one feels comfortable with the assessment.   Obviously there are lots of players in China, Korea and Japan who make the rankings pretty wrong if you are using a strict count as your measure.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 8:55am
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Look at Kanak's record over the last few years.  It simply isn't good enough to be top 50 under the old system.  Way too many loses to random people and too few victories over people in the top 50.  It is just that simple.  He does well in the 2 Pan Am events, gets an invite to the world cup and is already 40th in the new ranking system.  He plays the worlds and jumps to 30.  He then has 4 more events where he scores a few points in smaller events and jumps to 22.  I hope Kanak keeps training and improves but to say he is the 22nd best player or even in the top 50 currently is not credible. 

Who are the random people and at what events?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 10:53am
as pointed out by many members, the current ittf "ranking" system is designed purposely with certain bias.   Yes Jha deserves to by ranked #22 but does not mean he is the 22nd best player - bias is for where he is from (which is not by merit or choice unless one switched countries).

Edited by tom - 09/05/2019 at 11:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 11:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Look at all his loses against people unranked or outside of the top 100. 


That is a really weird answer, asking me to look through his match record from 2010 to date in order to find the players that should roll off the tip of your tongue. 

The thing is that many of the players he is losing to that are lower rated are also in some ways victims of the new rating system.  We can't point to Kanak losing to Kallberg and then forget that Kallberg is Swedish national team and Bundesliga player, or point to Kanak losing to Pletea, then forget that Pletea beat Harimoto that same tournament - these are both lower rated players that Kanak lost to deuce in the 7th or something close.  It can't all be "Kanak is not top 50" then ignoring wins over players like Lin Yun Ju, Quadri Aruna, Wong Chun Ting, Gustavo Tsuboi, Kiril Gerassimenko, Mihai Boboica, Ioannis Sgouropuolos etc.  He may objectively not be top 100 but I think the people who continue to say this need to provide evidence as well.  Just continuing to make these claims without looking at the matches is puzzling.  Someone was pointing to his loss to Wu Jiaji as a loss to 646 ranked player in the world, forgetting that Wu Jiaji was once on the CNT and then took Hugo Calderano to seven games in the very next match.  At the WJTTC, he mostly lost to Chinese players and actually beat one. 

I probably watch way too much TT but citing a loss to Drinkhall as an example of him being overrated is really puzzling.

So again, in the past one.year, can we provide a list of all the bad players that Kanak has lost to?  If we say Kanak's rating is inaccurate,  then we should.also be able to say what the accurate rating of the players he lost to should be.  I do believe that 22 is too high for Kanak but I also think that Americans are sometimes too quick to not defend Kanak as a quality player because they actually forget all the difficult things he has done



Edited by NextLevel - 09/05/2019 at 11:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 11:53am
No one is saying he isn't a quality player.  He simply isn't one of the best 50 players yet in my opinion.  Maybe one day he will be top 50 or even top 20.  Hopefully he will continue to improve. 

You can look at the results on the link I provided if you want.  Lots of losses against people well outside of the top 100. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ttunderthesun21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 12:00pm
Regardless of what his ranking, or what he should really be ranked, I think we can all agree that he has absolutely made the most of the opportunities he has been given.  Full commitment with the move to Europe, and hasn't really looked back since.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

No one is saying he isn't a quality player.  He simply isn't one of the best 50 players yet in my opinion.  Maybe one day he will be top 50 or even top 20.  Hopefully he will continue to improve. 

You can look at the results on the link I provided if you want.  Lots of losses against people well outside of the top 100. 



Again compare this level of detail to the context I have provided and you see the problem.  I combed that link yesterday before writing my posts yesterday.  All you have done is provide it and added nothing to make me change my mind about my conclusions after reviewing it.   Am I supposed to look at losses to Chance Friend in 2010?  Do better.

So let's try again - can you please provide the list of underrated players that Kanak has lost to in the past year which show that he is clearly not top 50?  Are we talking about Wu Jiaji, Kallberg and Pletea?  Or someone else?  Maybe the pips player from the WTTTC in 2018? Just trying to get some context here so we can all deal with the data and then spin it as we please. 


Edited by NextLevel - 09/05/2019 at 12:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 12:19pm
One thing to notice in tennis is that the rankings are better on par with the true level of players because outside atp/wta, people do not play tennis much, that closed system encompasses everything tennis so the merge between rankings and true level of play has happened.

In Table tennis, there are things like the Chinese super league, there are so many players who can't compete in the pro tour yet they would be acknowledged as world class if they were. That means ITTF's rankings are a closed system that does not take into account so many variables so the merge between rankings and true level of play can't happen but why would that be so bad? they build their system, their community, their village from a clean slate and the more they stick to that strategy, the more people will attend those pro tours; I think it's a very good one since the WTTC is under their control and it offers the most coveted titles so they can leverage it to support their rankings revolution.



Edited by stiltt - 09/05/2019 at 12:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

One thing to notice in tennis is that the rankings are better on par with the true level of players because outside atp/wta, people do not play tennis much, that closed system encompasses everything tennis so the merge between rankings and true level of play has happened.

In Table tennis, there are things like the Chinese super league, there are so many players who can't compete in the pro tour yet they would be acknowledged as world class if they were. That means ITTF's rankings are a closed system that does not take into account so many variables so the merge between rankings and true level of play can't happen but why would that be so bad? they build their system, their community, their village from a clean slate and the more they stick to that strategy, the more people will attend those pro tours; I think it's a very good one since the WTTC is under their control and it offers the most coveted titles so they can leverage it to support their rankings revolution.


Yes, but this is why the "I can name 50 players argument" doesn't carry weight. It is really about a playing level.  There are retired players all over the world who would be decent if they still played.  If you think Kanak is at that playing level, he is. If not, he is not.  If we have stats to back it up, that is the best.   But if someone is going to say that Kanak ranked #33 lost to Wu Jiaji ranked #646 and then say Kanak loses to players outside the top 100 on a regular basis, he doesn't understand table tennis. If they are saying that Kanak doesn't pass the top 50 eye test, I get it, but I want see better they arrived at that.  Not pretending to have data when they have presented absolutely none.


Edited by NextLevel - 09/05/2019 at 12:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Look at all his loses against people unranked or outside of the top 100. 


The same can be said about many players.
I am sure you know who I am talking about.
I absolutely agree with you Jackwong. Many players are ranked way too high and don’t perform according to their ranking. Luckily we still have consistent players like Ma long, xu xin or Wong Chun ting for example. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 5:53pm
"One thing to notice in tennis is that the rankings are better on par with the true level of players because outside atp/wta, people do not play tennis much, that closed system encompasses everything tennis so the merge between rankings and true level of play has happened."

Not always true. Tennis has lots of players who took extended breaks from play.

Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Serena have all had absences from the tennis tour due to injury, maternity leave, and in the case of Federer, just taking time off to rest.

Their WR dropped accordingly. When they started playing again, even though they had lower WR/seeding than their opponents, they were still usually favorites according to bookmakers because bookmakers with real $$$ on the line take in all available info to set the betting line.

All this WR talk is mostly useless because WR is only one factor in setting a betting line. Kanak has done a great job and his WR is what it is, give him credit.

Now if you are setting the betting line for Kanak versus a lower WR, who is the favorite? The answer will be different depending on the player.

Kanak would be a heavy underdog to WR25 WCQ. Maybe a favorite with others.








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2019 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Look at all his loses against people unranked or outside of the top 100. 


The same can be said about many players.
I am sure you know who I am talking about.
I absolutely agree with you Jackwong. Many players are ranked way too high and don’t perform according to their ranking. Luckily we still have consistent players like Ma long, xu xin or Wong Chun ting for example. 

wong chun ting  ? Lmao 
he could not even beat kanak jah


Edited by jackwong23 - 09/06/2019 at 1:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2019 at 4:33am
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Look at all his loses against people unranked or outside of the top 100. 


The same can be said about many players.
I am sure you know who I am talking about.
I absolutely agree with you Jackwong. Many players are ranked way too high and don’t perform according to their ranking. Luckily we still have consistent players like Ma long, xu xin or Wong Chun ting for example. 

wong chun ting  ? Lmao 
he could not even beat kanak jah
But it was enough for Harimoto
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