Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Using elastic glues for plies
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Using elastic glues for plies

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Online
Points: 16258
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Using elastic glues for plies
    Posted: 09/18/2019 at 5:36pm
Borko makes blades with hide glue and they offer a fantastic feel. He said that epoxy is like having another ply that competes with the wood, fair enough.

I was wondering about "elastic glues" in those exact terms and... they exist and are called just like that, I had no idea:


Note the following applications, I bet it would bond with wood and carbon:

Fixing and bonding automobile parts
Bonding and sealing electric, electronic and medical equipment
Bonding/sealing a variety of household articles
Bonding metals, plastics, and rubbers

What impressed me the most but did not surprise me because that's exactly the reason why I was searching about it:

"Absorbs external stress of vibration and shock."

No doubt we should try making blades with those types of glues.

AM I ONTO SOMETHING? Big smile

Another site about those glues:


Edited by stiltt - 09/18/2019 at 5:42pm
Back to Top
Dr.Cho View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/07/2012
Location: FLORIDA
Status: Offline
Points: 280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Cho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2019 at 8:34pm
I am into making my own experimental blades so this idea is interesting.

I have heard bits and pieces of the ITTF changing rules on blades or how they are made.

Hide glue us used in numerous blades.. more expensive because of the time and complications in using it

Ask Stradivarious

So thanks for the info
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Online
Points: 16258
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2019 at 8:53pm

Thank you Dr.Cho for providing a little balm to appease my pain due to waiting almost 2 days to get a first answer . You are a kind sir as a coworker used to tell me in emails, “a gentleman and a scholar” came home too and it applies to you. It does not mean much other than he would think the same of you. He got fired, I miss him and life goes on.



Edited by stiltt - 09/19/2019 at 10:55pm
Back to Top
Dr.Cho View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/07/2012
Location: FLORIDA
Status: Offline
Points: 280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Cho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2019 at 7:33pm
Thanks Stiltt,

I read the info very carefully as it could be something I could use.

I can't wait for table tennis to get into the future with new types of materials in table tennis blades.

I have made numberious blades with materials that really do change the way the ball behaves.

People have no idea what I'm using and look at their paddle confused. LOL

My problem is in the patent end of things because of the cost and the way things are done.
Back to Top
takacslaci View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 09/29/2008
Location: Hungary
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote takacslaci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2019 at 6:38pm
I don't think it is good idea. The glue should be rigid, for good blade feeling.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2019 at 7:25pm
I seem to recall that was a selling point of the Violin when it first came out.
Back to Top
Dr.Cho View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/07/2012
Location: FLORIDA
Status: Offline
Points: 280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Cho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2019 at 7:35pm
Well, for  numberious blades and for numberious blade makers the use of Hide Glue is what makes them special. and more expensive.

I believe the Hide never fully hardens and can be softened again with heat.

There are lots of hard glued paddles, but I believe Hide gives more feel.

I'm ready for something new and innovative.

Back to Top
kanialSmiredian View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 09/22/2019
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kanialSmiredian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2019 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Borko makes blades with hide glue.

Are they not some sort of animal glue ?
 
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

they offer a fantastic feel.

Obviously not for the animal    Shocked
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Online
Points: 16258
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2019 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by kanialSmiredian kanialSmiredian wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Borko makes blades with hide glue.

Are they not some sort of animal glue ?
 
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

they offer a fantastic feel.

Obviously not for the animal    Shocked
I am vegan, I won't use animal glue anymore, I need a replacement for the feel and I thought those elastic adhesives would be a route to follow maybe?
Back to Top
wchilton View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner
Avatar

Joined: 01/06/2015
Location: San Diego
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wchilton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2019 at 4:01pm
If you want to have something that gives similar feel to hide glue, then these elastic/stretchy adhesives are NOT the way to go.  Hide glue minimizes vibration dampening.  As hide glue dries it shrinks and this creates tension that pulls adjacent plies tightly together so that they vibrate together.  Think of a hide glue joint as if it were a very tight bungee cord.  Hide glue is considered to be "elastic" because it does not fill the wood pores (like epoxy and other glues do) and thus does not make the wood a lot stiffer than it naturally is.  If you use one of these "elastic" adhesives, it's going to allow the plies to vibrate more independently and will absorb some of the vibration between them.  This may not necessarily be a bad thing if maximum dampening is what you want...I just think it will be very different than using hide glue.  I've considered (but have not tried) making a paddle using a more elastic glue myself just to see what the effect is.  I was thinking of trying a contact adhesive (like one used in making shoes) rather than a silicone-based adhesive.
Back to Top
Dr.Cho View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/07/2012
Location: FLORIDA
Status: Offline
Points: 280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Cho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2019 at 11:07am
I'm not so sure about that.

Maybe a way to do this is to use a mesh with the elastic adhesive layer.
Seems like a better way.. who knows.

I know some who like the vibration and some who don't 

Anyway it's an idea and at least people are thinking of something new.
Back to Top
hardbatpower View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 07/13/2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hardbatpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2019 at 9:01am
This is a great discussion! It triggered a question for my particular situation.

I use balsa blades and OX short pips on my FH. The balsa catapult activates on my FH smash and the ball goes to warp. :-)

Downside is that I kill blades. :-( what happens is that the balsa eventually develops a soft spot and separates from the thin top ply. See this video clip of a Donic Cayman used for 3 months vs brand new one: https://youtu.be/mUO0v4JKszo

Any ideas on how to prevent this from happening? Would an epoxy layer under the top ply be hard enough to help, or would it kill the balsa catapult effect?


Edited by hardbatpower - 09/28/2019 at 9:43am
Der Material Spezialist Revolution, Haifu Dolphin OX + Curl P3alphaR
Back to Top
Dr.Cho View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/07/2012
Location: FLORIDA
Status: Offline
Points: 280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Cho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2019 at 7:38pm
Hardbatpower.. you might want to consider a blade sealer.

Something that will protect the surface enough but not change the way the blade plays.
Seal with acrylic wax or look into Michel detrigne as I believe he uses tougue oil.

I have many Balsa blades and I always protect the edges with a light coat of super glue too.. it helps.

Dr Cho
Back to Top
wchilton View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner
Avatar

Joined: 01/06/2015
Location: San Diego
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wchilton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/2019 at 3:14am
hardbatpower,
I read another post recently where someone mentioned this type of blade "loosing sharpness" after a while and I think this is the same thing you are seeing, only it's more severe in your case because the rubber you are using provides minimum cushion/protection for the blade.  I don't think that changing the type of glue for construction is going to be the best solution for this.  It's an interesting topic, though.  Would you mind creating a new post just for discussion of this?  I have a few "ideas" that I'd be happy to share but a post with an appropriate title like "Balsa blade going soft in few months time" would probably get attention from others who have had actual experience with this and you'll get a better overall answer.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
About MyTableTennis.NET | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2019 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.