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2019 Swedish Open, Oct. 01-06

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mykonos96 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2019 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by DHS PPK DHS PPK wrote:

Not withstanding the Modern Olympic spirit of inclusiveness and celebration of non sporting factors - I am not presuming any particular Olympic nation has and will and must win that table tennis or ice hockey or what ever Olympic medal but coming back to the table tennis universe and let’s focus on the individual level and not national Olympic association level what if say there happens to be two players from Japan playing better than Ito or two Taiwanese players better than Liu and then say to each hey you have been great but recently surpassed marginally by two slightly better teammates- how would you feel on an individual basis if both Ito and Lin had to sit it out as technically banned from completing?

Is it presumptuous by your argument to say well Ito and Lin are not guaranteed the gold medals especially as just before selection two other teammates are performing better? The table tennis individual events are that - individual and for that individual who happens to also represent XYZ Olympic association. 

In this scenario would you believe it is just and fair to deny both Ito and Lin a chance to complete? 

In the individual events you are effectively banning other individuals who have a good chance of becoming the individual Olympic Champion but instead satisfying the non sporting but cultural elements of the Olympic movement. 

Its just history the famous threats for the chinese team never did any harm  to CNT in the olympics
Would you post more straight facts not blah blah ?sorry you write too  much to say few things

Boll mizutani hirano ito dima  fell in the latest olympics games without noise ..can you find any of that players going 7games with a CNT?
I m banning? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liXiao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2019 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by DHS PPK DHS PPK wrote:

Not withstanding the Modern Olympic spirit of inclusiveness and celebration of non sporting factors - I am not presuming any particular Olympic nation has and will and must win that table tennis or ice hockey or what ever Olympic medal but coming back to the table tennis universe and let’s focus on the individual level and not national Olympic association level what if say there happens to be two players from Japan playing better than Ito or two Taiwanese players better than Liu and then say to each hey you have been great but recently surpassed marginally by two slightly better teammates- how would you feel on an individual basis if both Ito and Lin had to sit it out as technically banned from completing?

Is it presumptuous by your argument to say well Ito and Lin are not guaranteed the gold medals especially as just before selection two other teammates are performing better? The table tennis individual events are that - individual and for that individual who happens to also represent XYZ Olympic association. 

In this scenario would you believe it is just and fair to deny both Ito and Lin a chance to complete? 

In the individual events you are effectively banning other individuals who have a good chance of becoming the individual Olympic Champion but instead satisfying the non sporting but cultural elements of the Olympic movement. 

Its just history the famous threats for the chinese team never did any harm  to CNT in the olympics
Would you post more straight facts not blah blah ?sorry you write too  much to say few things

Boll mizutani hirano ito dima  fell in the latest olympics games without noise ..can you find any of that players going 7games with a CNT?
I m banning? 

What you seem to not understand though is that, even though you bring up he Pro Tour tournaments, the Chinese had also always dominated those. You act as if foreign players have been snapping up all the Pro Tour titles, but then when the WTTC/Olympics comes around. 

The fact remains that the damage Ito has inflicted upon the CNT is basically unprecedented by a non-Chinese born player. It amazes me that people freak out when Ito loses to CNT players rather than the other waiy around, which people seem to brush off or excuse. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2019 at 7:09pm
DHS PPK ...You simply do not understand the spirit of with which the Olympics is organized under. Its about inclusion, NOT exclusion. It's about including ALL NATIONS. ALL BACKGROUNDS.

When you make derisive statements about how players from Monaco or say, Costa Rica send their 2 players. You seem to imply "HOW DARE THEY SEND THEIR PLAYERS? THEY DON"T DESERVE IT" AS MUCH AS THE CHINESE. Yours is a elitist attitude. And is not an inclusive attitude. It's an exclusive one.

The rule limits two players per country. It is not banning players from going. It's a limit, not a ban.

When you use things like the data of wining records and use it as your premise you are using a logical fallacy. The Gamblers Fallacy.Sure China wins lots of medals. But you don't get to assume China has won all 3 medals, when the games have not even begun. Insisting that the rule affects China the most does not follow. The rule applies to every one, equally. PERIOD.

 Upsets do happen. Ma Long could lose! It could happen. There's a very low probability of it, but it could happen. If we go by your rationale, well then, Mima, pack your bags, don't bother training, no medals for you!. China has claimed all medals, why bother go through the charade. Hugo Calderano, stay home, abandon your Olympic gold dreams, China has already claimed the medals! Why bother play....why bother training...

FdT


Edited by Fulanodetal - 10/07/2019 at 7:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2019 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:


 Upsets do happen. Ma Long could lose! It could happen. There's a very low probability of it, but it could happen. If we go by your rationale, well then, Mima, pack your bags, don't bother training, no medals for you!. China has claimed all medals, why bother go through the charade. Hugo Calderano, stay home, abandon your Olympic gold dreams, China has already claimed the medals! Why bother play....why bother training...

FdT






Then why they come to World Tours? You could say same things about World Tours. Why bother training and come to Sweden Open if China has already claimed the medals
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2019 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by liXiao liXiao wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by DHS PPK DHS PPK wrote:

Not withstanding the Modern Olympic spirit of inclusiveness and celebration of non sporting factors - I am not presuming any particular Olympic nation has and will and must win that table tennis or ice hockey or what ever Olympic medal but coming back to the table tennis universe and let’s focus on the individual level and not national Olympic association level what if say there happens to be two players from Japan playing better than Ito or two Taiwanese players better than Liu and then say to each hey you have been great but recently surpassed marginally by two slightly better teammates- how would you feel on an individual basis if both Ito and Lin had to sit it out as technically banned from completing?

Is it presumptuous by your argument to say well Ito and Lin are not guaranteed the gold medals especially as just before selection two other teammates are performing better? The table tennis individual events are that - individual and for that individual who happens to also represent XYZ Olympic association. 

In this scenario would you believe it is just and fair to deny both Ito and Lin a chance to complete? 

In the individual events you are effectively banning other individuals who have a good chance of becoming the individual Olympic Champion but instead satisfying the non sporting but cultural elements of the Olympic movement. 

Its just history the famous threats for the chinese team never did any harm  to CNT in the olympics
Would you post more straight facts not blah blah ?sorry you write too  much to say few things

Boll mizutani hirano ito dima  fell in the latest olympics games without noise ..can you find any of that players going 7games with a CNT?
I m banning? 

What you seem to not understand though is that, even though you bring up he Pro Tour tournaments, the Chinese had also always dominated those. You act as if foreign players have been snapping up all the Pro Tour titles, but then when the WTTC/Olympics comes around. 

The fact remains that the damage Ito has inflicted upon the CNT is basically unprecedented by a non-Chinese born player. It amazes me that people freak out when Ito loses to CNT players rather than the other waiy around, which people seem to brush off or excuse. 


Mykonos is bbkon. Disregard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2019 at 7:40pm
"Then why they come to World Tours? You could say same things about World Tours. Why bother training and come to Sweden Open if China has already claimed the medals"

Yes piligrim...Im saying that rationale is wrong. It's wrong to simply assume China is the de facto winner.

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2019 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by liXiao liXiao wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by DHS PPK DHS PPK wrote:

Not withstanding the Modern Olympic spirit of inclusiveness and celebration of non sporting factors - I am not presuming any particular Olympic nation has and will and must win that table tennis or ice hockey or what ever Olympic medal but coming back to the table tennis universe and let’s focus on the individual level and not national Olympic association level what if say there happens to be two players from Japan playing better than Ito or two Taiwanese players better than Liu and then say to each hey you have been great but recently surpassed marginally by two slightly better teammates- how would you feel on an individual basis if both Ito and Lin had to sit it out as technically banned from completing?

Is it presumptuous by your argument to say well Ito and Lin are not guaranteed the gold medals especially as just before selection two other teammates are performing better? The table tennis individual events are that - individual and for that individual who happens to also represent XYZ Olympic association. 

In this scenario would you believe it is just and fair to deny both Ito and Lin a chance to complete? 

In the individual events you are effectively banning other individuals who have a good chance of becoming the individual Olympic Champion but instead satisfying the non sporting but cultural elements of the Olympic movement. 

Its just history the famous threats for the chinese team never did any harm  to CNT in the olympics
Would you post more straight facts not blah blah ?sorry you write too  much to say few things

Boll mizutani hirano ito dima  fell in the latest olympics games without noise ..can you find any of that players going 7games with a CNT?
I m banning? 

What you seem to not understand though is that, even though you bring up he Pro Tour tournaments, the Chinese had also always dominated those. You act as if foreign players have been snapping up all the Pro Tour titles, but then when the WTTC/Olympics comes around. 

The fact remains that the damage Ito has inflicted upon the CNT is basically unprecedented by a non-Chinese born player. It amazes me that people freak out when Ito loses to CNT players rather than the other waiy around, which people seem to brush off or excuse. 


Mykonos is bbkon. Disregard.

Bard your bitterness level has increased.I m not talking to you 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DHS PPK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2019 at 3:12am
I gathered from some of the above that other forum members are if you mostly believe is fair to say not only some what opinionated (whether with reasoned justification or not) but that simply put this forum appears to be really polarised as either it’s all about China or anti China or to put it another way you either support and appreciate the “usual” winning source of table tennis or dead against it and wish the sport was open and less predictable. I don’t care whether one source constantly win or not but to say it gets a bit boring does it not and or interesting when say Lin or Ito mix it up a bit for that surprise element in less match predictability! We don’t need to be non neutral and polarised and jealously is not beautiful as aggression should be reserved for your match on the table and not in an infant way for petty name calling and insults in this forum as if you lost the argument then take a chill pill and train harder for the next match. In life as in evolution of sport winners and losers will always come and go as nothing is guaranteed. 

People let me bang this out loud I am pro table tennis ie irrespective of origin of national school of table tennis development but simply put fascinated by the sheer domination of a particular source of table tennis supremacy and why do some therefore prejudge this as obviously I am arrogant and presumptuous and believe all matches are a foregone conclusion and that there is little hope in challenging the status quo.

In Sweden a qualifier (therefore by definition a new unknown or less known judging by previous results as obviously new younger with less matches played) won one of the main events so yes competition has validity and all should be entitled to have a go as especially with the ever smaller margins between elite professional athletes at the pinnacle of the sport.

All I am saying is for Olympics and in the inclusive nature of the Olympics sprit give all individuals (not limited and banned by association) the chance to share their skill, training and above all passion for the sport and let them compete in an open and fair fight. Therefore it is correct to say Ma Long has not got this in the bag because another player (irrespective of Olympics association) may play better on the day (thinking of Wang Hao here!) and indeed given the pressure to always win it may be the day that Ma Long actually becomes more like most of us here - another human being who happens to play the game. The individual events are for the individual sports person and not just for the Olympic association he or she represents. So sure Monaco, Costa Rica or any other Olympics association is in theory entitled to enter and have a go but is it rude and presumptuous to say hey perhaps you should only participate as a spectator instead? Would the individual event winner whether representing CNT or JTTA or as like in all good adverts for the game - any other Olympic association as many others are available - but just saying it is not about CNT winning or not but about the individual given a chance to participate in the Olympic spirit and on that note I guess pass winners Summer Olympics (Ma Long) or Youth Olympics (Wang Chuqin) may have to give other players a chance given the arbitrary ban/limitation and non inclusive inclusive nature of the Olympic spirit?

Peace out and clean and well supported reasoned discussion please....
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2019 at 6:57am
What is the goal of the Olympics?  Promote peace through sport? Fair competition?  How do you define "fair"?  Because what's fair to one person may not be fair to another.  If you define fair as being only the very best in the world, then yes, the Olympics is not "fair".  Each individual sport's World Championship is probably more fair in that regard.  It's no longer the case, but think back to the days of the "Dream Team".  And I understand it's a team sport vs. individual, but what if the goal was purely let's get only the very best teams in the world.  You may have ended up with 20 teams from the USA (at that time).  That's probably not something the entire world wants to see, or even most in the USA want to see.  And that runs contrary to the goal of the Olympic's desire for multi-country representation.  I do get your point though.  It is not "fair" that we're not going to see Wang Chuqin in Tokyo (I would love to be wrong about that).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DHS PPK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2019 at 7:05am
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:


 Upsets do happen. Ma Long could lose! It could happen. There's a very low probability of it, but it could happen. If we go by your rationale, well then, Mima, pack your bags, don't bother training, no medals for you!. China has claimed all medals, why bother go through the charade. Hugo Calderano, stay home, abandon your Olympic gold dreams, China has already claimed the medals! Why bother play....why bother training...

FdT



Then why they come to World Tours? You could say same things about World Tours. Why bother training and come to Sweden Open if China has already claimed the medals


Just to return to this particular point I am into total agreement with you on this important salient point as for Olympic inclusiveness in the individual events let all potentially capable player a chance!

Would it not be super if say a Brazilian player claimed to big prize but only by beating everyone of significance and not saying I won but XYZ was banned by playing because his Olympic association had too many equally capable potential winners and unfortunately they did not perform when it counted at the final championship point moment.

Look back at Sweden and you will see a chopper ranked (again this is when ranking is only a partial indicator of performance not actual who is the best) outside the top 200 Liu Fei got all the way until beaten by Chen Meng so what if she faced say another player perhaps hypothetically could have got runner up spot!? 

So therefore I agree with fair play and open competition let all players have a chance and stop the ever more restrictive limiting nonsense as what’s next - Olympics for just one player from each association? Or all the potential players have to get nationalisation and spread their talent around the international Olympic family?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DHS PPK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2019 at 7:32am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

What is the goal of the Olympics?  Promote peace through sport? Fair competition?  How do you define "fair"?  Because what's fair to one person may not be fair to another.  If you define fair as being only the very best in the world, then yes, the Olympics is not "fair".  Each individual sport's World Championship is probably more fair in that regard.  It's no longer the case, but think back to the days of the "Dream Team".  And I understand it's a team sport vs. individual, but what if the goal was purely let's get only the very best teams in the world.  You may have ended up with 20 teams from the USA (at that time).  That's probably not something the entire world wants to see, or even most in the USA want to see.  And that runs contrary to the goal of the Olympic's desire for multi-country representation.  I do get your point though.  It is not "fair" that we're not going to see Wang Chuqin in Tokyo (I would love to be wrong about that).

In every Olympic sport the reality is that reality - some Olympic associations wrap up certain sports agreed eg perhaps in team events USA wil probably still win if they played their B team in men’s basketball and Canada agin in men’s ice hockey etc etc. 

That said for the big sporting events I rather watch and learn from the best irrespective of geographic origin as let’s be frank are we not belittling the Olympic movement if it becomes a “competition” or sporting and cultural inclusiveness spectacle   celebrating participation from those who have little chance of otherwise winning and arbitrary banning potentially more capable sports men and women? What woul “qualifyer” Wang Chuqin or Lie Fei or any other new super player from whatever origin (with proven wins on the previous international tournament circuit of course and not “just off the street”) feel and say? All that training and dedication but why do I not switch overseas (in nations with lower level internal competition) to get a chance of Olympic representation am glory?!

Team events are of course different and it is fair for the best Olympic associations to send their chose best team and only one team as that of course would be fair on other lesser Olympic associations. Though as a sporting excellence point of view I rather see strong nations play more than one team as then it may be winner nation ABC first team and runner up nation XYZ first team and not the same dominant nation team 1 and 2! However you can’t have one National Olympic association sweeping the medal podium to bag all three medals in team events but individual events is a different matter and that is my point! And to cater to sensitive snowflakes here let’s just say how about a clean sweep for Canada in individual events (relax as just a light hearted joke!). Peace out and happy ping pong!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2019 at 3:42pm
"The individual events are for the individual sports person and not just for the Olympic association he or she represents. So sure Monaco, Costa Rica or any other Olympics association is in theory entitled to enter and have a go but is it rude and presumptuous to say hey perhaps you should only participate as a spectator instead? "


Yes it is presumptuous And elitist. Its an appalling suggestion and you should be ashamed of it. This statement of yours reveals your true colors.

It's disgusting.

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2019 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"The individual events are for the individual sports person and not just for the Olympic association he or she represents. So sure Monaco, Costa Rica or any other Olympics association is in theory entitled to enter and have a go but is it rude and presumptuous to say hey perhaps you should only participate as a spectator instead? "


Yes it is presumptuous And elitist. Its an appalling suggestion and you should be ashamed of it. This statement of yours reveals your true colors.

It's disgusting.

FdT
 
Isn't the Olympic motto "Faster, Higher, Stronger"? I think that's elitist and disgusting. Why not give everyone a gold medal? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2019 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by DHS PPK DHS PPK wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

What is the goal of the Olympics?  Promote peace through sport? Fair competition?  How do you define "fair"?  Because what's fair to one person may not be fair to another.  If you define fair as being only the very best in the world, then yes, the Olympics is not "fair".  Each individual sport's World Championship is probably more fair in that regard.  It's no longer the case, but think back to the days of the "Dream Team".  And I understand it's a team sport vs. individual, but what if the goal was purely let's get only the very best teams in the world.  You may have ended up with 20 teams from the USA (at that time).  That's probably not something the entire world wants to see, or even most in the USA want to see.  And that runs contrary to the goal of the Olympic's desire for multi-country representation.  I do get your point though.  It is not "fair" that we're not going to see Wang Chuqin in Tokyo (I would love to be wrong about that).

In every Olympic sport the reality is that reality - some Olympic associations wrap up certain sports agreed eg perhaps in team events USA wil probably still win if they played their B team in men’s basketball and Canada agin in men’s ice hockey etc etc. 

That said for the big sporting events I rather watch and learn from the best irrespective of geographic origin as let’s be frank are we not belittling the Olympic movement if it becomes a “competition” or sporting and cultural inclusiveness spectacle   celebrating participation from those who have little chance of otherwise winning and arbitrary banning potentially more capable sports men and women? What woul “qualifyer” Wang Chuqin or Lie Fei or any other new super player from whatever origin (with proven wins on the previous international tournament circuit of course and not “just off the street”) feel and say? All that training and dedication but why do I not switch overseas (in nations with lower level internal competition) to get a chance of Olympic representation am glory?!

Team events are of course different and it is fair for the best Olympic associations to send their chose best team and only one team as that of course would be fair on other lesser Olympic associations. Though as a sporting excellence point of view I rather see strong nations play more than one team as then it may be winner nation ABC first team and runner up nation XYZ first team and not the same dominant nation team 1 and 2! However you can’t have one National Olympic association sweeping the medal podium to bag all three medals in team events but individual events is a different matter and that is my point! And to cater to sensitive snowflakes here let’s just say how about a clean sweep for Canada in individual events (relax as just a light hearted joke!). Peace out and happy ping pong!

So you want chinese to flood all countries? You sound like a politician too much words for few ideas


Edited by mykonos96 - 10/10/2019 at 10:19am
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Edited by jackwong23 - 10/10/2019 at 9:10am
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