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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SignatureDish81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 3:13pm
This was an Open GRR

USATT Tournament Handbook again: 

5.c. Unrated players should never be excluded from advancing from a round robin group such as a giant round robin where the preliminary groups are used to place players in later events based on their order of finish.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by SignatureDish81 SignatureDish81 wrote:

This was an Open GRR

USATT Tournament Handbook again: 

5.c. Unrated players should never be excluded from advancing from a round robin group such as a giant round robin where the preliminary groups are used to place players in later events based on their order of finish.



You and I read the rule differently - this is not a giant RR.  If you know who wrote it and their intent feel free to share.  Moreover, there is no point using a rating estimate to seed the player and then letting him do what he did.  What that rule says is that if an unrated player is playing an open event, he can advance beyond the prelims.  The rule wasn't made to allow sandbagger to take advantage of this event format.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SignatureDish81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 3:41pm
The intentions of the USATT Tournament Handbook author do not need to be interpreted, the rule 5.c speaks for itself. 

Check entry blank, the main event in question on this thread was Giant Round Robin Format: https://omnipong.com/EntryForms/1075-39.pdf

Chapter 6- Section 4. Seeding:... 

Unrated players of known (estimated) ability may be seeded, if necessary to provide a fair draw. 


If you wanted to default the player from advancing, you'd be leaning on 5.7.1.: The rules require players “to do their utmost to win a match.” 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by SignatureDish81 SignatureDish81 wrote:

The intentions of the USATT Tournament Handbook author do not need to be interpreted, the rule 5.c speaks for itself. 

Check entry blank, the main event in question on this thread was Giant Round Robin Format: https://omnipong.com/EntryForms/1075-39.pdf

Chapter 6- Section 4. Seeding:... 

Unrated players of known (estimated) ability may be seeded, if necessary to provide a fair draw. 


If you wanted to default the player from advancing, you'd be leaning on 5.7.1.: The rules require players “to do their utmost to win a match.” 




They can be seeded based on estimate but still typically cannot advance.

Do you or have you actually played in many USATT tournaments? Your earliest post leads me to think maybe not. The fact that you think it would be too hard to catch a dump in a 76 person tournament at a facility as large at TTTC is a bit mind boggling but correct me if I am wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SignatureDish81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 4:10pm
Have you submitted your appeal to USATT yet?

Several times I have stated the caveat that it's more likely than not the player in question dumped the match. Given that simple truth, what else leads you to think I have not played many USATT tournaments?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by SignatureDish81 SignatureDish81 wrote:

Have you submitted your appeal to USATT yet?

Several times I have stated the caveat that it's more likely than not the player in question dumped the match. Given that simple truth, what else leads you to think I have not played many USATT tournaments?


Primarily the two things I said in my post above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SignatureDish81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 4:45pm
In Open Events of Giant Round Robin Format: 5.c. Unrated players should never be excluded from advancing from a round robin group such as a giant round robin where the preliminary groups are used to place players in later events based on their order of finish.

Not up for interpretation.

Whether or not the player in question dumped the match is a completely different topic, so sorry for derailing this thread by clearing up that misunderstanding of the USATT Tournament Handbook.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SignatureDish81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 4:52pm
What should be the threshold for rating difference to define when a referee/tournament director can automatically disallow participants from advancing past preliminary round, without proof or witnesses to be sure?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 4:54pm
The fact of the matter is that the match was an obvious dump and the player should have been disqualified from not just the event but the entire tournament after this. So I am not sure continuing this thread of discussion really has a point. What is more interesting is the recent post showing the B division finalist likely dumping again this past weekend, which gives more evidence (if it wasn't already cut and dry enough) that these individuals are dumping for money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by SignatureDish81 SignatureDish81 wrote:

What should be the threshold for rating difference to define when a referee/tournament director can automatically disallow participants from advancing past preliminary round, without proof or witnesses to be sure?


It will always be a case by case basis and it depends on what rating range you are talking about. 2500 versus 1500 leaves no doubt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by SignatureDish81 SignatureDish81 wrote:

What should be the threshold for rating difference to define when a referee/tournament director can automatically disallow participants from advancing past preliminary round, without proof or witnesses to be sure?


It will always be a case by case basis and it depends on what rating range you are talking about. 2500 versus 1500 leaves no doubt.
that's where predictability is at stakes. We should not depend on a TD/referee who might lose it on any given day, why taking the chance by giving them a leeway they do not need?

Table tennis is a sport generating powerful emotions; to control those, best is to know in advance what will happen no matter the issue: having a predetermined answer to most if not all situations is paramount.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by SignatureDish81 SignatureDish81 wrote:

In Open Events of Giant Round Robin Format: 5.c. Unrated players should never be excluded from advancing from a round robin group such as a giant round robin where the preliminary groups are used to place players in later events based on their order of finish.

Not up for interpretation.

Whether or not the player in question dumped the match is a completely different topic, so sorry for derailing this thread by clearing up that misunderstanding of the USATT Tournament Handbook.

No, it is very much up for interpretation.  Usually, when they are not prevented from advancing, they are not allowed to win prize money or trophies in any event other than the Open or highest event.  In a giant RR, The player would have played many more players in the first round to get a better idea of where he placed and his sandbagging would have been more obvious with every match.  The tournament director could have intervened at any time,

This was just bad organizing on many levels.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SignatureDish81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2019 at 6:51pm
Maybe we are talking past other. Unrated players should always allowed to advance in open round robin or open giant round robin format. Two issues with that Triangle Giant Round Robin Main Event that could have been prevented with full adherence to USATT tournament guide:

13.d.7. Giant Round Robin. Where players can intentionally lose to qualify for a lower division it is best to give all money in the championship division. An alternative is to give an amount, e.g. $50 to the winner of a randomly selected lower division.

Giant Round Robin. The giant round robin has become a very popular tournament format. All players enter the giant round robin and are then placed into championship and class events based on their finish in the preliminary GROUPS OF 5 or more players.
    -organizer used groups of 4 in preliminary round.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2019 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by SignatureDish81 SignatureDish81 wrote:

Maybe we are talking past other. Unrated players should always allowed to advance in open round robin or open giant round robin format. Two issues with that Triangle Giant Round Robin Main Event that could have been prevented with full adherence to USATT tournament guide:

13.d.7. Giant Round Robin. Where players can intentionally lose to qualify for a lower division it is best to give all money in the championship division. An alternative is to give an amount, e.g. $50 to the winner of a randomly selected lower division.

Giant Round Robin. The giant round robin has become a very popular tournament format. All players enter the giant round robin and are then placed into championship and class events based on their finish in the preliminary GROUPS OF 5 or more players.
    -organizer used groups of 4 in preliminary round.



Yes we are speaking past each other.  You keep writing as if one should just follow rules on considering this case when the rules are not designed to address this case.  As you wrote, you can deter sandbagging by reducing the price incentive in the lower divisions.   You can also deter it in this radical case by not permitting unrated players to win in the lower divisions which would draw a proper analogy to why they are not permitted to win prizes in round robins other than the Open.  In any case, you are also allowed to estimate ratings and permit unrated players to advance.  My point is that no matter how you slice it, there is now way to excuse the sloppy management of the issue in this tournament on the part of the organizers.  You obviously disagree and there is nothing wrong that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2019 at 12:47pm
Aside from the ethical issues and enforcement policies, I'm curious how much this player netted from winning $500? That is, prize $ minus expenses. Does he live outside of reasonable driving distance to Triangle TT so that he can't go back and forth each day? Even as part of a group, what's the approximate cost for travel, lodging, entry fee? or was he sponsored for all those costs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2019 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

 

Found the Runner up dumping more matches this past weekend at the Charlotte NC tournament.


Why would she lose the quarterfinal?  You think she is trying to get her rating really low for a big upcoming tournament?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2019 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

 

Again. It is highly unlikely that it went unnoticed by anyone at any point of receiving the match sheet, entering the results, and posting the draws after the preliminary round. This was one of the players that was seen as a candidate to win it all going into the tournament. There is no way that it slipped through the cracks of the TD or tournament staff. Which leads you to question why it wasn’t looked into. Isn’t this the same guy who banned someone for wanting to do multiball?
[/QUOTE]

He beat the guy that won the whole tournament in an earlier event.  Maybe he had a slight injury and knew he could't win the RR so dumped...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttforlife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2019 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by WeebleWobble WeebleWobble wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

 

Again. It is highly unlikely that it went unnoticed by anyone at any point of receiving the match sheet, entering the results, and posting the draws after the preliminary round. This was one of the players that was seen as a candidate to win it all going into the tournament. There is no way that it slipped through the cracks of the TD or tournament staff. Which leads you to question why it wasn’t looked into. Isn’t this the same guy who banned someone for wanting to do multiball?

He beat the guy that won the whole tournament in an earlier event.  Maybe he had a slight injury and knew he could't win the RR so dumped...
[/QUOTE]

The player who almost beat him in the semis said he suspected him being injured, which is why he likely decided to dump down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2019 at 7:23pm
Is a 2055 player losing to an 1870 level really worthy of suspicion? That is not even a 50 pt loss in rating. I don't the person under suspicion or her/his history, but equating this situation with a 2500-1500 loss (which I agree is fishy) seems heavy handed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2019 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by Odie Odie wrote:

Is a 2055 player losing to an 1870 level really worthy of suspicion? That is not even a 50 pt loss in rating. I don't the person under suspicion or her/his history, but equating this situation with a 2500-1500 loss (which I agree is fishy) seems heavy handed.

No. That kind of thing happens all the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttforlife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2019 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by Odie Odie wrote:

Is a 2055 player losing to an 1870 level really worthy of suspicion? That is not even a 50 pt loss in rating. I don't the person under suspicion or her/his history, but equating this situation with a 2500-1500 loss (which I agree is fishy) seems heavy handed.

2055 on paper, but actual skill level is likely solid 2200+. Could be possible.... but i'm not the only one on this post to have suggested this person is sandbagging on purpose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RDinTN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2019 at 11:57am
1870 is LH Seemiller-ish player w/ long pips.. 2055 player long pips BH - FH hitter. So the style match up is the issue for the 2055 player - lost to a short pips - long pips in group play (super tricky service game).
 
When the spin is "weird" the 2055 player struggles, used to regular rubber and faster play than what was happening at that venue. Humidity was high at times and the flooring slowed player down - it was soft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2019 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

Originally posted by Odie Odie wrote:

Is a 2055 player losing to an 1870 level really worthy of suspicion? That is not even a 50 pt loss in rating. I don't the person under suspicion or her/his history, but equating this situation with a 2500-1500 loss (which I agree is fishy) seems heavy handed.

2055 on paper, but actual skill level is likely solid 2200+. Could be possible.... but i'm not the only one on this post to have suggested this person is sandbagging on purpose.

But why did she dump the quarterfinal?  This was the only event she played in.  I don't see the benefit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2019 at 12:26pm
Looks like the North Carolina Seniors tournament was cancelled due to lack of interest.  I don't see any info on the Triangle Table Tennis site or omnipong for November or December tournaments either.
Maybe they should reduce prize money and lower the cost of playing events.  Paying $40 for one event is alot.  

And really, having Jishan Liang and co come play at your event really does nothing to promote a club.  If Ma Long came that would have an effect but not these guys.  I assume most people are playing tournaments for their ratings, not for the cash prizes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2019 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by WeebleWobble WeebleWobble wrote:

Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

Originally posted by Odie Odie wrote:

Is a 2055 player losing to an 1870 level really worthy of suspicion? That is not even a 50 pt loss in rating. I don't the person under suspicion or her/his history, but equating this situation with a 2500-1500 loss (which I agree is fishy) seems heavy handed.

2055 on paper, but actual skill level is likely solid 2200+. Could be possible.... but i'm not the only one on this post to have suggested this person is sandbagging on purpose.

But why did she dump the quarterfinal?  This was the only event she played in.  I don't see the benefit.

I doubt she dumped in that event unless she plans to travel for something worth more money soon which is not likely, though she will probably work less hard winning U2000 than U2200.  She probably struggles with pips players but not to the tune of 0-3.  For me, a player rated 200pts or so higher losing 0-3 to a player who isn't showing a jump is kinda tough to justify.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2019 at 12:30pm
It was over 20 years ago and I played a known sandbagger. I was receiving serve up 18-17 in the 3rd. Remember, 5 serves at a time back then. I intentionally missed his first 2 serves to see his reaction, a counter-sandbagging tactic. I was planning to play "normal" after that. He was terrified that he might win so, up 19-18, he took no chances and served the next 3 either into the net or off the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2019 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

It was over 20 years ago and I played a known sandbagger. I was receiving serve up 18-17 in the 3rd. Remember, 5 serves at a time back then. I intentionally missed his first 2 serves to see his reaction, a counter-sandbagging tactic. I was planning to play "normal" after that. He was terrified that he might win so, up 19-18, he took no chances and served the next 3 either into the net or off the table.
 
You mean the next 2?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2019 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

It was over 20 years ago and I played a known sandbagger. I was receiving serve up 18-17 in the 3rd. Remember, 5 serves at a time back then. I intentionally missed his first 2 serves to see his reaction, a counter-sandbagging tactic. I was planning to play "normal" after that. He was terrified that he might win so, up 19-18, he took no chances and served the next 3 either into the net or off the table.
 
You mean the next 2?
From the sandbagger's point of view, he was down 17-18. I missed his first two serves so he was up 19-18. He then served 3 straight off so he lost 19-21. The look of fear on his face when I missed the first two serves was enough to confirm and expose his sandbagging. I would've returned his next serves if he hadn't played it safe.


Edited by heavyspin - 10/31/2019 at 4:41pm
TT idiom - Don't count your rating before the match.
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