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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 12:37pm
thanks for sharing the information 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 5:18pm
Ms Sung says...

NVRMND LOL


Edited by Charlie Brown - 01/07/2020 at 5:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 5:26pm
Could someone tell me what defines a person as "an athlete" and as "independent" in reference to selecting the new interim board members.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2020 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Could someone tell me what defines a person as "an athlete" and as "independent" in reference to selecting the new interim board members.

Mark


See here, section 7.7 for Independent and 11.2 for Athlete:

Athlete one isn't too long:
Section 11.2. Qualifications.
In order to run for, nominate, or vote for USATT Athletes’ Advisory Council, one must meet the
standards of an Elite Athlete. An Elite Athlete shall constitute an individual who has represented
the United States as athletes in the Olympic or Paralympic Games, the Pan American or Para Pan
American Games, or World Championships in the sport of Table Tennis within the ten (10) years
since the completion of competition.
Only an Elite Athlete that is a United States Citizen as well as at least eighteen (18) years of age
by the first date of his or her term may be eligible to run for election to the USATT Athletes’
Advisory Council.
Further, in order to be eligible to run or vote in the election of AAC, an individual must be and
remain a member in good standing of USATT ninety (90) days prior to the date of the election.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/08/2020 at 1:00am
Reading the minutes from here:


I can see why people wanted certain things on record.  The future will be interesting.

I am a bit surprised that they want to go back to a "ratings fee" structure - did the "tournament pass" structure fail that badly?  I actually liked the latter and often played fewer events because I got tired of paying higher entry fees (Well to be fair, I was less physically able to play as well).  Unless they want the ratings fee to replace the tournament pass and then make membership a separate thing.  But the idea that you have to pay to know your rating is also weird.  But I am open to all experiments, just need to know and understand the justification.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2020 at 9:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 2:59am
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

The USATT board now has two members: https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/Features/2020/January/09/Athlete-Representatives-Appointed-to-Interim-Board-of-Directors

And here we go again.  I haven't reviewed recent financials, but in the past the majority of the funding came from the membership yet the USATT is run mostly by a non-member elected board.  So now we have an interim board that is going to be doing everything it can to make the USOPC happy.  

I long ago speculated on whether or not we should have two organizations.  One that exists for the rank and file recreational player and another that exists to benefit the elite and potentially elite player.  The two organizations could and should work cooperatively, but each would have clear priorities. One to promote growth at non-elite levels and the other to skim the cream from that (hopefully) growing pool to groom for high level competition.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 4:35am
In my time in table tennis, I have met SO MANY players who absolutely HATED doing much for tourneys as they know the fees generated and paid to USATT have not been going to benefit the membership a lot.

USATT makes around 1.8 million a year and the largest chunks of that are for Overhead (CEO/Staff) and HPD.

Less than half of what USATT makes goes towards things that are associated with the average USATT member. These very things have really had an effect.

What would it REALLY cost annually to run an organization that serves basic needs of the TT playing community that is not elite? Definitely not 1.5 million... (USATT income minus the USOPC cash and media share value)

An organization focused only on serving the amateur non-elite TT community could have a chance to really work on developing the sport at garage, basement, church, social, bar, and whatever level and increase membership and income. A lot of possibilities.

As it is, even with .25 million USD in value given to USATT annually by USOPC, an elite athlete over 10 years still has parents spend .25 million USD (Lessons, travel, tourneys, camps) in serious pursuit of team placement.

USATT has enough time and data to show it isn't built very well to serve both the elite players and the members to any degree acceptably.

Every foreigner I run into eyes roll up when you explain it takes $100+ in fees to do 3 events in a USATT tourney. Korea, for example, you pay MAYBE $30 USD for the 3 events (singles, doubles, team) often you get lunch, AND there are free raffles for meaningful prizes... like a mountain bike... often 40-50 prizes and hundreds of players at each tourney. If they can figure it out, WE had time to figure it out and haven't.

I think a separate organization for non-elite athletes would serve the non-elite athletes much more efficiently.

Maybe it was because leadership never figured out how to grow table tennis, and thus grow income. Maybe this CEO will figure it out better than the others have. Time will tell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 7:17am
Growing the active membership base is the problem.  We haven't figured out how to make TT compete with other sports at the lower levels of education.

Edited by NextLevel - 01/11/2020 at 7:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 8:01am
Hi,

Some of my best Swiftian excursions highlighted the contrast between the typical USATT tournament player's quite large financial contribution to the organization and its events and the return on said investment from the organization, particularly when juxtaposed with the comparatively very large financially-based benefits that the upper-echelon-rated players and the national-team-selected players do receive.  Were someone statistically so inclined to investigate and calculate, the numerical representation would be shocking. 

Long I have argued that the problem in considering an approach to the USATT growth stagnation is due to a mindset that encompasses this country's huge population and the breadth of its demographic dimensions.   In contrast, I propose that the best first demographic to target the growth effort and its resources is the current club players that very infrequently or not-at-all participate in USATT events.  They are already in the sport, very active in the sport, and are only an inch away from the USATT participants.

Expressed directly, the USATT should spend money on bringing these players into the organizational activities.  I have a number of ideas in this regard that have been rejected by the USATT when I proposed them repeatedly throughout the many years, rejected at a blinding dismissal speed with no responding explanation or comment to me from the authorities.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:


Every foreigner I run into eyes roll up when you explain it takes $100+ in fees to do 3 events in a USATT tourney. Korea, for example, you pay MAYBE $30 USD for the 3 events (singles, doubles, team) often you get lunch, AND there are free raffles for meaningful prizes... like a mountain bike... often 40-50 prizes and hundreds of players at each tourney. If they can figure it out, WE had time to figure it out and haven't.\

I think the cost of tournament entries is only somewhat related to USATT fees.  The new membership model sans "ratings" fee works out to about $15 per tournament for USATT if you play in five tournaments a year.  Less if you play in more.  And if you play in fewer, you can cap your USATT fees to $20 per tournament buy using a Tournament Pass.

In a typical 0 to 2 star tournament that our club runs that draws about 70-80 players paying fees of about $40 each on average, we would collect and send to the USATT some amount between $500 and $1000 for each tournament.  This amount was typically around 15-30% of the total tournament gross and is typically about the same as what the club would clear after all expenses were paid and prizes were awarded.  

Tournaments and I think USATT economics in general depends a LOT on volunteer work.  If volunteers were paid for their time at just minimum wage, I wouldn't be surprised that fees would increase substantially (50% or more?) for most USATT sanctioned events.

If USA players want better value in their tournaments, then I think what they need most is sponsors.  And that ties back into the need to grow the number of visible TT participants so that potential sponsors will find the sport to be something attractive to be associated with.

Edit:  I forgot to add in tournament sanctioning fees, but those typically range between only about $1-2 per player for our tournaments. 




Edited by wturber - 01/11/2020 at 1:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:


Every foreigner I run into eyes roll up when you explain it takes $100+ in fees to do 3 events in a USATT tourney. Korea, for example, you pay MAYBE $30 USD for the 3 events (singles, doubles, team) often you get lunch, AND there are free raffles for meaningful prizes... like a mountain bike... often 40-50 prizes and hundreds of players at each tourney. If they can figure it out, WE had time to figure it out and haven't.\

I think the cost of tournament entries is only somewhat related to USATT fees.  The new membership model sans "ratings" fee works out to about $15 per tournament for USATT if you play in five tournaments a year.  Less if you play in more.  And if you play in fewer, you can cap your USATT fees to $20 per tournament buy using a Tournament Pass.

In a typical 0 to 2 star tournament that our club runs that draws about 70-80 players paying fees of about $40 each on average, we would collect and send to the USATT some amount between $500 and $1000 for each tournament.  This amount was typically around 15-30% of the total tournament gross and is typically about the same as what the club would clear after all expenses were paid and prizes were awarded.  

Tournaments and I think USATT economics in general depends a LOT on volunteer work.  If volunteers were paid for their time at just minimum wage, I wouldn't be surprised that fees would increase substantially (50% or more?) for most USATT sanctioned events.

If USA players want better value in their tournaments, then I think what they need most is sponsors.  And that ties back into the need to grow the number of visible TT participants so that potential sponsors will find the sport to be something attractive to be associated with.

Edit:  I forgot to add in tournament sanctioning fees, but those typically range between only about $1-2 per player for our tournaments. 


It's nice to see Jay post, since I don't see his name here is often as it used to be. I'm just going to reinforce his post.

The idea of separate organizations for general players versus high performance players is something I've been advocating for a long time, including a post earlier in this thread (which no one responded to Embarrassed).  The needs of general players are very  simple: ratings and sanctioning tournament, and potentially something involving clubs (which right now is only the liability insurance).  Once upon a time we got a nice little magazine, but that's gone.  We have a USATT web site, but it's fairly basic.    And much of that work is done now by volunteers.  So for all we pay, we get very little.

You could have two organizations or one organization that is somehow bicameral (2-in-1).  But either way you need a system where most of our fees are actually used for our benefit and where leadership is focused on our welfare.

I suspect that the general membership has always been "taxed" to pay for high performance efforts, but USOC has made this worse because their only concern is high performance.  The general membership should be rising up against this, but they don't, perhaps because it seems like too much effort for a hobby, or maybe because they feel powerless, or possibly because we haven't had any leadership (with a plan) focused on us.  Even in this thread, people will post one angry comment after another, without reflecting on the fact that none of this should be of concern to us at all.

For the high performance part, you need sponsorship.  For that, you need greater public interest in table tennis as a sport.  For the general players part, you want more players anyway, to broaden the base.  That's where the effort should be: to broaden general membership.

I keep thinking about how things have evolved this way.  If you're an ambitious table tennis organizer or coach in this country, you try to  grow the parts of your business that are most prestigious, which would be high performance.  No one brags about bringing in 100 new recreational players.  And these are the people who, in turn, seek leadership positions with USATT.  The result is a leadership that thinks it's OK to taxe the general player membership for the benefit of a mismanaged and sometimes corrupt high performance program.

You really want to fix this?  Separate the organization into high performance and general players sections (or separate organizations).  Otherwise, I predict a continuing failure of table tennis to expand in this country and a continuing failure of the leadership in USATT no matter who is selected to the Board.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

[QUOTE=wturber][QUOTE=BH-Man]

I suspect that the general membership has always been "taxed" to pay for high performance efforts, but USOC has made this worse because their only concern is high performance.  The general membership should be rising up against this, but they don't, perhaps because it seems like too much effort for a hobby, or maybe because they feel powerless, or possibly because we haven't had any leadership (with a plan) focused on us.  Even in this thread, people will post one angry comment after another, without reflecting on the fact that none of this should be of concern to us at all.


Yeah.  I got sucked back into looking at this forum because of the USOPC thing and a question someone directed toward me on another matter.  

Anyway, rank and file players are pretty much powerless to effect change from within the organization.  I think the motivation is lacking as well because I'm sure there are things like tradition, supporting our players and similar things at work psychologically.  

So that pretty much leaves it up to somebody to form a competing organization that offers something better and either pulls this rank and file player away or simply attracts a lot of the existing non-USATT players.  That would be a very time-consuming and probably financially risky thing to try. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Anyway, rank and file players are pretty much powerless to effect change from within the organization.  I think the motivation is lacking as well because I'm sure there are things like tradition, supporting our players and similar things at work psychologically.  

So that pretty much leaves it up to somebody to form a competing organization that offers something better and either pulls this rank and file player away or simply attracts a lot of the existing non-USATT players.  That would be a very time-consuming and probably financially risky thing to try. 


Agreed.  Nonetheless, this is something I think about often, because, well, it's what really needs to be done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 2:41pm
I think it would be something like an association of clubs, rather than players.  Mininal dues and provide support for clubs to grow.  Clubs generate players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

I think it would be something like an association of clubs, rather than players.  Mininal dues and provide support for clubs to grow.  Clubs generate players.
I think it would need to be dual: clubs and players both have membership and share in control.  

I also think you could charge clubs a larger fee, provided you could demonstrate that worthwhile services (like help in promoting the clubs) would be provided in return.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

I think it would be something like an association of clubs, rather than players.  Mininal dues and provide support for clubs to grow.  Clubs generate players.

Yes.  I've watched my wife grow table tennis here in Fountain Hills just by getting involved in the local community center and getting involved in coaching other players.  One day a week she has a group of six relatively novice players who come to our house and train most of the day with a coach who drives in. Some days she does robot drills with some other friends. Basically, she started getting involved with training other players so there would be a bigger pool of players for her to play against.

People like the game.  You get more players by creating more more enjoyable playing opportunities.  So, like you said, clubs generate players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 8:32pm
I was just looking up some old copies of ITTF table tennis rules and I ran across this graphic I created and used to make a few t-shirts.  I forget what the specific frustrations were, glue, ball size, lack of representation?  Who knows?  But the reality is that the situation hasn't changed much really. 

Of course there is another likely reality.  A new more recreational level kind of organization might not serve a lot of players in the 1900-2300 level range very well either.  Hard to say.




Edited by wturber - 01/11/2020 at 8:33pm
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