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2020 U.S. Nationals location

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2019 at 8:19am
Originally posted by emihet emihet wrote:

it will be a heavenlike tournament for long pip players, defenders and junk rubber players...a nightmare for impulsive attackers...i did not realize it was that high...vagas was a big difference already...but nothing surprises me from USATT anymore; it is obvious that they don't really have the sport as the number one and most important aspect of the organization

What I insinuate, imply, and intimate, you state directly.

It has been reported that these types of decisions are made at the committee level, then submitted to the Board for approval.  Also declared is the proposition that the committees are populated by highly qualified people in the sport in the specific area under a given committee's purview.  On the occasions when a committee's decision is untoward, the most senior in adjudication, as hierarchically supposed, on the Board exercise their oversight responsibility and rectify the erroneous actions of the committee's submission.  This is how our USATT governing system works.

Recently, for those who hold genuine caring for the importance of senior leadership in the U.S. for this sport with the greatest potential of any other sport, have been whacked repeatedly.

o  Given the declared expectations, particularly in the area of revenue generation, the questionable performance of the prior USATT administration, with an exorbitant compensation structure.

o  The lack of proper monitoring of the playing conditions of a recent L.A. Open.

o  The two year unruly unprofessional High Performance Committee, with frequent questionable behaviors, including the area of financial expenditures and national team player selection and specific-tournament player selection. (Which, it must be added, is a committee of very highly qualified members, as manifest in the mass resignations when enough was enough.)

o  The very time-consuming and attention-and-energy-consuming brouhaha in the process of attempting to remove an elected board member, displacing those limited resources from genuine governing matters.

o  The incomprehensible USATT financial picture of recent times, as so revealed by the expertise of this forum's members.

o  The USOPC demands for the dismantling of the complete Board due to a number of insurmountable grievances not judged to be correctable via existing reform measures.

o  The extraordinary expenses incurred for the operations of the U.S. Open tournament due to late and unexpected costs somehow not anticipated in the standard budgetary cycle.

o  The selection of a site, for the most important tournament of the year for the organization, with a playing condition attribute known for decades as highly negatively influential in modern table tennis play dynamics. 

The statement that the USATT senior governance is not improving is sound.

The declaration that the USATT senior governance has declined in competency when compared with prior administrations that have been held as very disappointing and highly unsatisfactory from the general memberships' perspective is to reach an unrefreshing and inescapable vision of a future possessing similar if not worsening behaviors and outcomes.  

This lack of ability to stabilize the governance at a performance level deemed unacceptable, but instead to foster greater dissolution from the state of the unacceptable, is to attain depths challenging for all to grasp. 

Thanks. 

 


Edited by DonnOlsen - 12/26/2019 at 10:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2019 at 1:25pm
I personally also don't believe that an elevation of 4000ft will make that big of a difference but I do believe that a significant difference in the humidity does make a difference. Salt Lake City has low humidity as does the afore mentioned Albuquerque and I believe that what takes some players time to adjust to. I live in Phoenix (elevation in the valley where I play 1200-1400ft) with extremely low humidity (some months <10%) and used to travel to Portland quite often on business. I played at Ben's club in Salem as well as the Paddle Palace club several times and the high humidity took a lot to adjust to. I dumped short serves and pushes into the net and "wet" rubbers change looping. My anti doesn't really like humidity either and becomes more "grippy".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2019 at 10:05am
A LETTER TO CALIFORNIA

To our dear friends in California,

Hello and seasons greetings to you and your families!

First, permit us, in the warmest of hearts, to thank you for your extraordinary support of the U.S. Nationals on all the occasions in which it resided in Las Vegas.  As you customarily make up close to half of all the participants in these events, your generous contribution cannot be overstated.

We are writing to you at this time because of the recent reporting on the decision selecting Salt Lake City as the 2020 host of our great national championships.  We know and understand the impact this has on you, as the location is, as a matter of distance, less favorable than our beloved Las Vegas.

It is our earnest plea to please keep an open mind about participating in this next Nationals, despite the incremental inconvenience the new locale presents to you.  Please keep in mind that California is considered by all in the country as the Capital of Table Tennis in America, that it has the best players, the best clubs, and its member participation in any competition is always the highlight of the tournament.  The U.S. Nationals epitomizes all that is California's greatness. 

To be blunt: The Nationals NEEDS you!  You are its backbone; without a backbone the body falls.

We know you will make the right choice, a choice that for many of you supports your many-years selection of the Nationals as the highlight of your competition year, where you have the opportunity to watch America's best (which are mostly Californians!), and win oh-so-many precious rating points from the sometimes-unsuspecting flyover portion of the country.

Holding the highest hope and the concrete confidence in your conscience, we will see you in Salt Lake City!

Signed,

Denver Table Tennis Community Salt Lake City Nationals Promotion Committee (DTTCSLCNPC)



Edited by DonnOlsen - 12/27/2019 at 10:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FlatHitter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2019 at 7:34pm
It's cheaper and easier to travel to vegas plus 24 hour entertainment...better if you have to bring a wife...I don't feel any excitement about going to Salt Lake City..not that it's a bad place but it is not vegas..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2019 at 7:54pm
Yup. California über alles all the way.

Unless I can travel with fine friends like emihet and a bunch of others and stay together for friendly good times and unit cost reduction, I refuse to go to the large events.

I can ensure my costs are low enough to motivate me to go to Nats or Open if it is in Vegas... even if the play hall has white colored walls and glare from floors.

We can reduce our expenses for the big LA tourneys easy enough to make it worth it.

I may go to east coast for teams, just because I can make TWO Trouble Making Teams and do it as a one off since I made a small promotion at work and can afford a couple hundred USD extra expense once a year.

For many of us, it is economic and fun coming together lined up that is über alles for us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2019 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by FlatHitter FlatHitter wrote:

It's cheaper and easier to travel to vegas plus 24 hour entertainment...better if you have to bring a wife...I don't feel any excitement about going to Salt Lake City..not that it's a bad place but it is not vegas..
No excitement? What about a performance by The Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LOG1C1AN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2019 at 2:41pm
My local club here in SoCal had zero players attend, as far as I can tell, the recent Open in Ft. Worth. This is a club that has had as many 37 players show up in Vegas including a few that won various events. There might be 3 or 4 of that 37 that travel to SLC for Nationals.


Edited by LOG1C1AN - 12/28/2019 at 2:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2019 at 3:10pm
I thought the USATT goal was to maximize the number of players ?  Guess not. Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2019 at 5:03pm
Sounds like the Calif crowd is crying particularly the LA group all upset they can't make the quick drive to Vegas.
My guess the usual National players will get the urge and make the journey to Salt Lake particularly the higher end players looking for better level of play then their local club.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2019 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by LOG1C1AN LOG1C1AN wrote:

My local club here in SoCal had zero players attend, as far as I can tell, the recent Open in Ft. Worth. This is a club that has had as many 37 players show up in Vegas including a few that won various events. There might be 3 or 4 of that 37 that travel to SLC for Nationals.

Even though your club didn't have any players at the Open, The turnout was surprisingly good.  For me, Vegas is a 8 hr drive, SLC is 10 hrs.  Depending on the dates and events I can enter, I plan on going.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2019 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by jt99sf jt99sf wrote:

I thought the USATT goal was to maximize the number of players ?  Guess not. Angry


We have enough time and data to conclude that the USATT has no real interest in growing amateur Table Tennis... or it is damn inept... or both.

Look at where the money has been spent. MAYBE .5 million USD of the around 2 million total annual income spent on running stuff for amateurs.

Even with all the big bucks spent on the high-performance portion... so many parents STILL shell out a smooth $250,000 over a decade or even more just to get their kid a SHOT at the team.

One day, we have a dream, that our NGB in a future time WILL do things that increase amateur membership and participation by connecting to the millions of US basement rec players... or another organization would do so and exist for amateurs like us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/31/2019 at 7:24pm
Our club didn't have anyone at the Open in Fort Worth, but already have 4 players going to the Nationals in Salt Lake City.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dsc13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/03/2020 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:

4000 ft is not that high.  I don't think you'll notice a difference.  7000 or 8000 feet would be another story.  I wouldn't worry about altitude effects here.

I grew up and practiced in Reno, NV, and played almost all  of my tournaments at sea-level/near-sea level in California.  Reno and Salt Lake City are almost the exact same elevation.   I can assure you without a doubt that there will be a huge difference in how the ball reacts between the two elevations.  

When I played tournaments at sea-level, any topspin ball seemed to drop like a rock after hitting the table for all my matches on Saturday.  I'd adjust by Sunday, but only because when i was young I'd spend 8 hours on Saturday playing with any and everyone who would hit with me. 

For low-landers going to Salt Lake City, your shots will sail off the table until you adjust for the thinner air, and shots landing on your side will feel like they just bounce straight up!




Edited by dsc13 - 01/03/2020 at 6:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alphapong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2020 at 3:14am
I am one of those that really liked Vegas. There are however certain realities that need to be faced. Nationals can't lose money. The last nationals in Vegas lost approximately $130,000. A large part of that was that the venue cost for Vegas has skyrocketed. How much extra would you be willing to pay to have nationals in Vegas? To make up the 130K loss, each of the 755 players would need to pay an ADDITIONAL $172. I don't think that is going to happen.

Even though Texas was probably not everyone's first pick for the US Open, the event made money. Much of this is because USATT was given a good deal on the venue. Utah may not be your favorite place, but there are not a ton of suitable venues that are affordable. Even if SLC gets half the players, and they make a profit, that has to be chosen over having 755 players and losing more than 100K.

As players we may need to just take a deep breath and realize that https://youtu.be/K0qnt5rTCoo?t=59


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2020 at 8:23am
Hi,

Having extensive executive corporate management experience, I can testify that one significant and time-consuming responsibility is planning, a function that varies by area of concern and by time frame.  Planning is a management competency.

I find it impossible to justify a significant financial loss at the Nationals as one that was unavoidable.  With the appropriate lead times in place, this should never have happened!  It is preposterous.  

We have two choices for causation: corruption or incompetency.  I have no information on either, just the effect, an effect that contributes with great strength to the criticism of those in the current turmoil.

Secondly, even the geographically-challenged could, with adequate research, identify a Nationals' location that realized both the sea level requirement and the financial viability requirement.  

As an organization, they are not even close.

Thanks.
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2020 at 1:46am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

I personally also don't believe that an elevation of 4000ft will make that big of a difference but I do believe that a significant difference in the humidity does make a difference. Salt Lake City has low humidity as does the afore mentioned Albuquerque and I believe that what takes some players time to adjust to. I live in Phoenix (elevation in the valley where I play 1200-1400ft) with extremely low humidity (some months <10%) and used to travel to Portland quite often on business. I played at Ben's club in Salem as well as the Paddle Palace club several times and the high humidity took a lot to adjust to. I dumped short serves and pushes into the net and "wet" rubbers change looping. My anti doesn't really like humidity either and becomes more "grippy".

Yes.  In the last month or so I've been having real problems at Via Linda.  For some reason their winter heating seems to not dry the air very much.  It always seems very humid in there and I find my hardbat losing grip. I've taken to warming my racket at the window in the nearby Kutchen to reduce the effect.

OTOH, while I'm sure that my Matt Pimpled friend knows this, people frequently believe that humid air is heavier when it is actually lighter for a given pressure.  That's because a water molecule is lighter than a nitrogen molecule (70% or so of air is nitrogen).  So drier SLC air will tend to compensate a bit for the higher SLC altitude.

Years ago I created a ball speed calculator that uses a simple air drag model that seems to work pretty well for table tennis balls.  Though it does not try to account for ball spin effects it does account for air density based on altitude.  Assuming a 27g, 40.5mm ball, an initial speed of 40mph (moderately hard hit), after 0.5 seconds we get these results:

Sea level (1.225 kg/m3) distance traveled = 18.733 ft  velocity after 0.5 sec = 17.31 mph
4300 ft (1.0781 kg/m3)  distance traveled = 19.526 ft  velocity after 0.5 sec = 18.61 mph

At a more typical rally speed of 25 mph (same ball and time interval we get)

Sea level (1.225 kg/m3) distance traveled = 13.40 ft  velocity after 0.5 sec = 13.76 mph
4300 ft (1.0781 kg/m3)  distance traveled = 13.82 ft  velocity after 0.5 sec = 14.55 mph

So assuming the humidity is the same, the ball will be be typically travelling about 5 to 10 inches further for a given initial speed between rally shots at SLC altitude.

Alternatively we can calculate for a given distance of, for instance , 13 feet (9 feet + 2 feet + 2 feet) and we find that our 25 mph ball covers that distance in 0.48 seconds while our SLC altitude ball does it in 0.462 seconds.

I intuit that these differences (18 milliseconds in this example) matter, but also that they can be adapted to fairly quickly. As a point of comparison, the allowed variation in ball weights could account for about 6 milliseconds in this kind of comparison. So we players are probably used to making that level of adjustment fairly easily. 

You can play with the calculator at:

I suggest setting the calc iterations to 100,000 for a good compromise between speed and precision.


Edited by wturber - 01/12/2020 at 1:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2020 at 7:52am
My experience in dry 5000 ft Colorado was my shots were sailing long.  Way long. That was coming from very humid sea level Houston.  Given what Jay mentioned about the effects of humidity, that suggests altitude was the problem for me (since humid air is thinner than dry air).  I use inverted.

I'm not an engineer, but in cycling people usually try to set the one hour distance record at higher altitudes because they have calculated that the reduction in wind resistance outweighs the disadvantages of getting less oxygen per breath.  A person on a bike weighs a lot more than a TT ball (and a ball also has a very poor aerodynamic profile which makes it more sensitive to air density).  The only reason I know this is because I follow cycling as closely as TT, and cyclists for good reason are obsessed with aerodynamics.  On bikes a round tube is very bad and an airfoil shape is good.

Anyway, regardless of the reasons, based on experience I predict that it's not going to be easy for flatlanders!  


Edited by Baal - 01/12/2020 at 7:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2020 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

I played in the National Senior Games this year, in Albuquerque, NM, about 5,000 feet. I normally play within a few hundred feet of sea level. First day was a nightmare, second day I was adapting faster, by the third day I had better adjustments than most. 

I also played there and felt that the different ball they were using (Butterfly I think) was more bothersome than the altitude. One thing to keep in mind is that the majority of players will be dealing with a similar change in conditions.  And the minority who aren't, typically have to deal with a change for other major tournaments. So it seems perfectly reasonable that they ought to get a slight advantage if they regularly suffer from a slight disadvantage.

My general approach to altitude, table, floors and other such things is that the more you tell yourself that you are missing shots due to conditions, the more that will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  The best antidote in my experience is the attitude that you are capable of making the minor adjustments better than your opponent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2020 at 12:51pm
I'm not concerned with adjusting strokes to the conditions. I'm more concerned with how well I'll be able to breathe in altitude if I decide to use footwork.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2020 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

My general approach to altitude, table, floors and other such things is that the more you tell yourself that you are missing shots due to conditions, the more that will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  The best antidote in my experience is the attitude that you are capable of making the minor adjustments better than your opponent.

Good point. I have psyched myself out that way.  And people adapt. 

Still if I had a lot riding on it I would try to arrive a day early and hit for a couple of hours and then play safely the first match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2020 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


Still if I had a lot riding on it I would try to arrive a day early and hit for a couple of hours and then play safely the first match.

Absolutely.  If it matters, get there days early and play an appropriate amount so you are well tuned for the important matches.


Edited by wturber - 01/12/2020 at 11:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/13/2020 at 10:10am
Hi,

Some additional precision may be helpful here.

I started playing table tennis in Denver, in my late 20's.  I lived there for 12 years, playing very frequently, playing tournaments all around the country in many different environments.  I have a strong practical experience base in the adaptive requirements of atmospheres.

With the extremely light ball, the immediate atmosphere is of significant influence.  Two factors of influence on player playing outcomes are racket speeds and spin-sensitive rubbers.

In general, the faster the racket speed the more the atmosphere is a factor.  Slow racket speed executions are minimally affected by atmosphere.  Many players who feature slow and medium racket speed executions report no discernible atmospheric effect in different environments.

Additionally, the more spin-sensitive the rubbers that are used, the more the atmosphere is influential.  Players using lower-spin-sensitive rubbers are less affected by the atmosphere because the spin environment they function within is proportionally less, thus the spin-to-atmosphere relationship dynamic is correspondingly reduced.  In contrast, high-spin-sensitive rubbers promote a greater spin environment that interacts more strongly with the atmosphere.

Thanks.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/13/2020 at 10:48am
So Donn,

If I slap anti spin on both sides and start training furiously will I dominate the U1900 in Salt Lake?

Or do I still need to do some ratings management and look to get into the U1700 to be assured of a medal?

Mark - If you can't beat them, take your ball and paddle and go home (or to the pickleball court).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/13/2020 at 11:33am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

My experience in dry 5000 ft Colorado was my shots were sailing long.  Way long. 

For some, it may make sense going old school slow. Ditch the Tenergy or MX-P for this tournament. Slap Donic Baracuda 2.0 on both sides, go there a couple of days early to get acclimatized to the conditions & your rubbers. Or do what Kreanga does (in some playing halls) and use softer rubbers (T05FX instead of T05, for example).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konnichwakid1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/13/2020 at 1:47pm
I live in Utah and play. Altitude will have an impact that will take people a few hours to make adjustments. The humidity is something I have looked at too. I have a humidifier in my house and the difference between 67% humidity in the house and 30% humidity is not as noticeable as altitude. Even though humidity would seem to have an impact, it can only have more impact on the ball based on atmospheric pressure (wet or dry) around the ball. You will finish some matches without sweating a drop though. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/13/2020 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

So Donn,

If I slap anti spin on both sides and start training furiously will I dominate the U1900 in Salt Lake?

Or do I still need to do some ratings management and look to get into the U1700 to be assured of a medal?

Mark - If you can't beat them, take your ball and paddle and go home (or to the pickleball court).

Congratulations!  Your mind is sharp; identifying the two key strategies before us.  With the strongest force of conviction, I recommend the selection of both.  Rating manipulation is always a prudent choice when seeking your name and picture in lights.  (By the way, as a side note, do you recall in the many years past when the Top 10 Most Wanted FBI posters were on display in all the post offices around the country?  I do because, at various times, it was the only way to remain informed of the various goings on of some of our family members.)

By slapping said anti-spin rubbers on for just this tournament is also strongly advised, as it matches well the Equipment Junkie's Creed that the magic is in the equipment.  There really is no sense of pride or dignity nowadays anyway; there is no dark side; and in following my excellent advice the brightest future is before you.

One last recommendation is to ensure you are fully conversant with HeavySpin's directives on the local culinary delights, as he is never wrong, always right in these matters, plus with the prize money from your Under 1700 Gold Medal, you will have the additional funds to really do the town.

Thanks.
"God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots." Voltaire
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