Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - My painful play
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

My painful play

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Simas View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/04/2017
Location: EU
Status: Offline
Points: 404
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/29/2020 at 4:11am
@Baal: totally agree with everything you say (that's what I meant about "I am not talking about eating junk by the way"). Maybe I did not emphasize or explain that enough. 

The point I was making, is that intermittent fasting does not work by itself, what works is eating less, and intermittent fasting is the way to achieve that and without a lot of suffering LOL 

Another bad thing (besides high GI) about simple sugars full junk foods, that it is calorie dense, so you eat it, get a lot of calories in a small piece, digest it fast and want to eat again. And as a rule, junk food, besides sugars, are full of fats (saturated)... Try eating the same amount of calories by eating apples LOL

Another thing (or maybe more like a theory), that some fasting is in general a good thing for your overall longevity and vice versa... (Baal, do you know David Sinclair and if you do, what do you think about him?)

I am also going to a gym for some weight training to add more lean muscle mass, so to achieve that I still have to be in a caloric surplus... so my thinking is maybe I can have the best of both worlds: be in a total daily caloric surplus by eating more calorie dense food during my feeding stage and fasting during fasting stage, for stress the cells and force them into regeneration mode... Don't know if that could work, need to do some research on that (by that I mean googling LOL  )... Baal, what is your take on that?
Stiga Offensive Classic Legend
DHS Hurricane Neo3
Donic Bluefire JP01 Turbo
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
obesechopper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 04/20/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 708
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/29/2020 at 1:27pm
Lot of diet "experts" everywhere, and no real answer. It's all personal to each person for them to find out what works best, and that's what makes it so difficult. 

Don't eat carbs at night, don't eat them in the morning, don't eat after 6pm, don't eat high fat... only eat high fat and on and on it goes... if there was anything actually proven for everyone, there wouldn't be a need for new fad diets every 15 minutes. 

Goes back to the age old advice... take what works for YOU and forget the rest. 

You can literally find good studies for any diet, and within 1 minute of google searching... find another study or expert saying it's total shit. 


Edited by obesechopper - 02/29/2020 at 1:28pm
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13309
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/29/2020 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Simas Simas wrote:

keto, intermittent and so on... it does not matter in the end.

What matters is just simple physics -calories in - calories out= your weight (I am not talking about eating junk by the way)

So use the diet that is the easiest to follow. For me, intermittent fasting works well, but it does not mean, that if my daily calories requirement for maintaining constant weight is 3000kcal, I can eat 3300kcal in my feeding window. I still have to eat 2700kcal in the end to loose weight.

So, if you don't have a good grasp how many calories what foods have, you still have to do your math. 

My diet is very consistent: oats for the breakfast, eggs and buckwheat for dinner, something different for my supper and cottage cheese for a late snack. Because I eat pretty much the same every time, I know how much calories I intake and don't need to make the calculations, but that's not for everyone , I suppose...


Mostly this is very true (especially the necessity of keeping track of caloric intake of what you eat) but there are some caveats.  It is not quite just simple physics because bodies are a bit more complex than furnaces (we have evolutionary adaptations that allow us to withstand famines and such).  Calories that lead to surges in insulin secretion do tend to lead to more efficient conversion to fats that are stored.  It is ok to eat carbs but you need to focus on carbs with a lower glycemic index.  So simple sugar is definitely your enemy, and whole grains are not, unless you eat way too much of them. 

Bottom line:  eat a bit less, eat like a type-1 diabetic when you do eat, and also get aerobic exercise.  TT alone is probably not aerobic enough.  Bicycles are good.

Of course if you simply reduce caloric intake by whatever method you will lose weight.  It's not that calories in < calories out is false.  But you can make it a bit less painful and lose more weight for the same amount of caloric restriction by reducing the glycemic index of the carbohydrates you eat (you want low glycemic index foods).  Actually what Simas eats fits right into that scheme.  Also if you don't increase aerobic work you will not maintain it over the long term.  You need some carbs to maintain ideal glycogen stores in your muscles so as to perform well in sports.  But ideally those come from complex carbs. 

I am not a high level athlete but all I will say is that my TT performance is close to its best ever and I have not had any significant amount of carbs in the one and a half years, in fact I played the last NA teams mostly eating meat and fasting.  I can't make any serious pronouncements from n=1 studies on a non-elite athlete such as myself, but I just want to say that I am a bit suspicious of the idea that the carbs are as necessary as people think if someone spends a long enough period fat adapted with very little carb intake.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190
FH: T05H 1.9 B
BH: T05H 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13309
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/29/2020 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Lot of diet "experts" everywhere, and no real answer. It's all personal to each person for them to find out what works best, and that's what makes it so difficult. 

Don't eat carbs at night, don't eat them in the morning, don't eat after 6pm, don't eat high fat... only eat high fat and on and on it goes... if there was anything actually proven for everyone, there wouldn't be a need for new fad diets every 15 minutes. 

Goes back to the age old advice... take what works for YOU and forget the rest. 

You can literally find good studies for any diet, and within 1 minute of google searching... find another study or expert saying it's total shit. 
Agreed.  That is why dietary studies that aren't tightly controlled are largely shit.  People don't realize unfortunately that this is the kind of crap that dominates the news on diet.  The most clinically researched diet is actually the low carbohydrate diet, because one of its advocates was so into clinical trials that he needed to perform some just to keep himself honest and credible.  Yet given how people write about diets in the press, you would think that low carb diets are a fad and that far less rigorously researched diets like vegan or weight watchers or the standard American diet are built on sound science (there is little research or science on *any* diet),
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190
FH: T05H 1.9 B
BH: T05H 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13842
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/01/2020 at 11:37am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Lot of diet "experts" everywhere, and no real answer. It's all personal to each person for them to find out what works best, and that's what makes it so difficult. 

Don't eat carbs at night, don't eat them in the morning, don't eat after 6pm, don't eat high fat... only eat high fat and on and on it goes... if there was anything actually proven for everyone, there wouldn't be a need for new fad diets every 15 minutes. 

Goes back to the age old advice... take what works for YOU and forget the rest. 

You can literally find good studies for any diet, and within 1 minute of google searching... find another study or expert saying it's total shit. 
Agreed.  That is why dietary studies that aren't tightly controlled are largely shit.  People don't realize unfortunately that this is the kind of crap that dominates the news on diet.  The most clinically researched diet is actually the low carbohydrate diet, because one of its advocates was so into clinical trials that he needed to perform some just to keep himself honest and credible.  Yet given how people write about diets in the press, you would think that low carb diets are a fad and that far less rigorously researched diets like vegan or weight watchers or the standard American diet are built on sound science (there is little research or science on *any* diet),


I tend to agree with this, actually.  A lot of nutritional studies that get picked up in media are pretty horribly designed and the media reports fall into the correlation = causation fallacy every time. 

One thing for sure, weight loss is one of the hardest things anyone can do because are brains are programmed to resist it.  I also suspect (which is not the same thing as knowing) that there are many underlying reasons why some people pack on weight (people are heterogeneous). That would mean that different people may respond better to different kinds of diets.  NL's diet would definitely eliminate most insulin surges.  Physiologically it would definitely work.

By the way, when I wrote "perform well in sports" I should have written "endurance sports" like running or cycling.  In a sport like TT even on pretty much carb-free diets you will have enough muscle glycogen to do ok.  The only thing is that most people find it really hard to maintain an extremely low or no-carb diet for very long. 


Edited by Baal - 03/01/2020 at 11:44am
Back to Top
doraemon View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/14/2007
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1660
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/01/2020 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Lot of diet "experts" everywhere, and no real answer. It's all personal to each person for them to find out what works best, and that's what makes it so difficult. 

Don't eat carbs at night, don't eat them in the morning, don't eat after 6pm, don't eat high fat... only eat high fat and on and on it goes... if there was anything actually proven for everyone, there wouldn't be a need for new fad diets every 15 minutes. 

Goes back to the age old advice... take what works for YOU and forget the rest. 

You can literally find good studies for any diet, and within 1 minute of google searching... find another study or expert saying it's total shit. 


It is true, that's why in the previous post, I wrote the type of diet that WORKED for ME.

And in the beginning, I followed intermittent fasting to prove that it was wrong.   So I was surprised that it actually works for me.

I agree also that there are many new ways of dieting that being published every week.  But in the end, you have to choose what works for you.




Acoustic
H3-Neo / Mark V
Back to Top
mts388 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 03/21/2014
Location: Sonora CA
Status: Offline
Points: 2092
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/01/2020 at 10:20pm
[QUOTE=doraemon]
I forget to mention ONE THING !!!

I cut my sugar intake.

I could drink Coke or Pepsi 3-4 cans a day.   During Intermittent fasting or keto diet, I don't drink soda at all.   I also take my tea plain without sugar.  Well, sometimes when I really crave for soda, I drink a can, but probably only one can per week or per 2 weeks.

(QUOTE)

I think that cutting our 3 or 4 cans of soda was the main reason you lost weight.  
Back to Top
doraemon View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/14/2007
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1660
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2020 at 3:02am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:


I think that cutting our 3 or 4 cans of soda was the main reason you lost weight.  


Probably..... LOL
Acoustic
H3-Neo / Mark V
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13309
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/02/2020 at 8:32am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Lot of diet "experts" everywhere, and no real answer. It's all personal to each person for them to find out what works best, and that's what makes it so difficult. 

Don't eat carbs at night, don't eat them in the morning, don't eat after 6pm, don't eat high fat... only eat high fat and on and on it goes... if there was anything actually proven for everyone, there wouldn't be a need for new fad diets every 15 minutes. 

Goes back to the age old advice... take what works for YOU and forget the rest. 

You can literally find good studies for any diet, and within 1 minute of google searching... find another study or expert saying it's total shit. 
Agreed.  That is why dietary studies that aren't tightly controlled are largely shit.  People don't realize unfortunately that this is the kind of crap that dominates the news on diet.  The most clinically researched diet is actually the low carbohydrate diet, because one of its advocates was so into clinical trials that he needed to perform some just to keep himself honest and credible.  Yet given how people write about diets in the press, you would think that low carb diets are a fad and that far less rigorously researched diets like vegan or weight watchers or the standard American diet are built on sound science (there is little research or science on *any* diet),


I tend to agree with this, actually.  A lot of nutritional studies that get picked up in media are pretty horribly designed and the media reports fall into the correlation = causation fallacy every time. 

One thing for sure, weight loss is one of the hardest things anyone can do because are brains are programmed to resist it.  I also suspect (which is not the same thing as knowing) that there are many underlying reasons why some people pack on weight (people are heterogeneous). That would mean that different people may respond better to different kinds of diets.  NL's diet would definitely eliminate most insulin surges.  Physiologically it would definitely work.

By the way, when I wrote "perform well in sports" I should have written "endurance sports" like running or cycling.  In a sport like TT even on pretty much carb-free diets you will have enough muscle glycogen to do ok.  The only thing is that most people find it really hard to maintain an extremely low or no-carb diet for very long. 

I thought quite a bit before deciding to respond to this.  Part of the reason why people find it really hard to maintain a low carb diet is that they are told that the carbs are necessary to maintain optimal health.  I do accept and admit that the carbs are enjoyed by most people but even in cases where someone has and wants to enjoy a low or zero carb diet, you find some expert or doctor telling them that they need the carbs to be healthy. 

To explain my perspective let me give an example. There are many people for example who do the Atkins diet and experience the great satiation of the induction phase and lose lots of weight.  Then Atkins then tries to reintroduce carbs to find your level of tolerance.  Some people would happily remain on the induction diet if they were told it was okay for them to remain there and infact, that is how some of the zero carb advocates got to their regimens.  Being told you need the veggies and carbs to live (which is not obviously true if there is truth to it) is not an insignificant part of the problem.  Social situations and carb desires (or addiction if you are so inclined) play a role.  But if you have experienced the satiety of a low carb or zero carb diet, you will see that the biggest barrier is not usually the desired, it is people always telling you you need to eat some veggies or fruits even when you have no real inclination to eat them.

When I tell people that most of what they consider hunger is really a mild or serious hypoglycemic episode, they don't understand.  That said, for me, the alternative to being extremely low carb is pain in my joints etc. So my motivation is probably higher than most.

Lastly, there are quite a few low carb endurance runners and cyclists.   The key is to go through a lengthy adaptation period.  When I first played TT on this diet returning from my break I felt like shit And was still convinced that carbs were required if I trained hard.  But over time my body has gotten better and better at it.  If you make someone who plays or Trains at a high level on cycling or running do big tests after following the diet for a month or two, you are going get significantly suboptimal results in my experience even if they are not considered as such. After 6 months to a year, things are much closer to where you will end up.  
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190
FH: T05H 1.9 B
BH: T05H 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
Back to Top
obesechopper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 04/20/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 708
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2020 at 12:10pm
Endurance athletes dont seem to suffer much from low carb or zero carb. However, I've not seen any big successful lifter or bodybuilder following a low to zero carb. Or if they are, only for a short time and after they built their physique and strength. I believe there is evidence that a low carb diet can maintain the person's attributes over a short while, during their cutting phase for competition etc. 

Although on the same token, I think the average person vastly overestimates how much they need the carbs and worry about their "lifts" or what have you, decreasing a bit as a result. 

And I agree with NL's sentiment, that often someone might even discover a diet they enjoy and works for them... but some new study comes out saying, hey stupid! You cant eat like that because sammy sixpack says it's bad for you!! 

You broke rule #46 of my bestlifediet!! Buy my course!! So the person stops their successful diet and goes back to binging, when told they cant continue for whatever reason. 
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13309
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2020 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Endurance athletes dont seem to suffer much from low carb or zero carb. However, I've not seen any big successful lifter or bodybuilder following a low to zero carb. Or if they are, only for a short time and after they built their physique and strength. I believe there is evidence that a low carb diet can maintain the person's attributes over a short while, during their cutting phase for competition etc. 

Although on the same token, I think the average person vastly overestimates how much they need the carbs and worry about their "lifts" or what have you, decreasing a bit as a result. 

And I agree with NL's sentiment, that often someone might even discover a diet they enjoy and works for them... but some new study comes out saying, hey stupid! You cant eat like that because sammy sixpack says it's bad for you!! 

You broke rule #46 of my bestlifediet!! Buy my course!! So the person stops their successful diet and goes back to binging, when told they cant continue for whatever reason. 

Well there are a couple of zero carb body builders who eat high protein and relatively high fat diets - the main exponent of the zero carb diet on youtube does a lot of workouts on youtube.  The one thing with lifting is that there are often steroids involved, so unless you know who is clean and who is not, you might be ascribing to one thing what is really the result of another.  But eating a lot of meat will give you definition and muscle even if you don't do anything that really facilitates hypertrophy.  I know that from personal experience.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190
FH: T05H 1.9 B
BH: T05H 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
Back to Top
obesechopper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 04/20/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 708
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2020 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Endurance athletes dont seem to suffer much from low carb or zero carb. However, I've not seen any big successful lifter or bodybuilder following a low to zero carb. Or if they are, only for a short time and after they built their physique and strength. I believe there is evidence that a low carb diet can maintain the person's attributes over a short while, during their cutting phase for competition etc. 

Although on the same token, I think the average person vastly overestimates how much they need the carbs and worry about their "lifts" or what have you, decreasing a bit as a result. 

And I agree with NL's sentiment, that often someone might even discover a diet they enjoy and works for them... but some new study comes out saying, hey stupid! You cant eat like that because sammy sixpack says it's bad for you!! 

You broke rule #46 of my bestlifediet!! Buy my course!! So the person stops their successful diet and goes back to binging, when told they cant continue for whatever reason. 

Well there are a couple of zero carb body builders who eat high protein and relatively high fat diets - the main exponent of the zero carb diet on youtube does a lot of workouts on youtube.  The one thing with lifting is that there are often steroids involved, so unless you know who is clean and who is not, you might be ascribing to one thing what is really the result of another.  But eating a lot of meat will give you definition and muscle even if you don't do anything that really facilitates hypertrophy.  I know that from personal experience.

I always assume any decent looking person with a well-developed body and a YT or insta following etc. is definitely on gear LOL

Same thing with actors miraculously putting on muscle for a role in a few months, following some wonderfully wholesome diet and workout program Clap

My point isn't that you can't build muscle or strength on the ZC/LC, just that it doesn't appear to be the optimal or fastest way. But again for amateur/dabblers, I don't think it would matter much because even on a high carb diet they'd still struggle - but LC generally allows people at least to not be overweight on top of it. 
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13309
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2020 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Endurance athletes dont seem to suffer much from low carb or zero carb. However, I've not seen any big successful lifter or bodybuilder following a low to zero carb. Or if they are, only for a short time and after they built their physique and strength. I believe there is evidence that a low carb diet can maintain the person's attributes over a short while, during their cutting phase for competition etc. 

Although on the same token, I think the average person vastly overestimates how much they need the carbs and worry about their "lifts" or what have you, decreasing a bit as a result. 

And I agree with NL's sentiment, that often someone might even discover a diet they enjoy and works for them... but some new study comes out saying, hey stupid! You cant eat like that because sammy sixpack says it's bad for you!! 

You broke rule #46 of my bestlifediet!! Buy my course!! So the person stops their successful diet and goes back to binging, when told they cant continue for whatever reason. 

Well there are a couple of zero carb body builders who eat high protein and relatively high fat diets - the main exponent of the zero carb diet on youtube does a lot of workouts on youtube.  The one thing with lifting is that there are often steroids involved, so unless you know who is clean and who is not, you might be ascribing to one thing what is really the result of another.  But eating a lot of meat will give you definition and muscle even if you don't do anything that really facilitates hypertrophy.  I know that from personal experience.

I always assume any decent looking person with a well-developed body and a YT or insta following etc. is definitely on gear LOL

Same thing with actors miraculously putting on muscle for a role in a few months, following some wonderfully wholesome diet and workout program Clap

My point isn't that you can't build muscle or strength on the ZC/LC, just that it doesn't appear to be the optimal or fastest way. But again for amateur/dabblers, I don't think it would matter much because even on a high carb diet they'd still struggle - but LC generally allows people at least to not be overweight on top of it. 

I understand what you are saying.  My point is that the optimal or fastest way has a lot of asterisks attached to it.  We have to know fairly well what the core causal factors are before we speak on optimization.  If someone is gaining weight and strength but condemning themselves in later years to diabetes or other side effects, is that optimal?  

People also believed for a while that it was not best to be low carb as an endurance athlete and some researchers still avidly try to prove this.   A lot of stuff comes from analysis of people who have not been allowed to actually try a low carb or zero carb diet for a long enough period to make a difference.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190
FH: T05H 1.9 B
BH: T05H 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13842
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2020 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Endurance athletes dont seem to suffer much from low carb or zero carb.
 


I don't know about other sports but road cyclists would suffer horribly on that diet, especially in stage races.  Geardaddy if he is around can confirm.

But anyway, as NL points out, he has a special motivation for being able to maintain a diet that most people can't do.  Severe pain and disability is a pretty good motivator.

one thing for sure is that losing weight however you manage to do it can reduce TT-induced injuries a lot.




Edited by Baal - 03/03/2020 at 3:46pm
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13309
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2020 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Endurance athletes dont seem to suffer much from low carb or zero carb.
 


I don't know about other sports but road cyclists would suffer horribly on that diet, especially in stage races.  Geardaddy if he is around can confirm.

But anyway, as NL points out, he has a special motivation for being able to maintain a diet that most people can't do.  Severe pain and disability is a pretty good motivator.

one thing for sure is that losing weight however you manage to do it can reduce TT-induced injuries a lot.



I saw a road cyclist in YouTube who says the diet improved his performance.  He may be lying but he may also not be.  Like I said, it is something that everyone who has not given themselves a period to adapt says will never work.  Then they do it and get surprised when their performance is very close to and sometimes even better than what they had before going on the diet.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190
FH: T05H 1.9 B
BH: T05H 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
Back to Top
obesechopper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 04/20/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 708
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2020 at 4:22pm
Also ultra-marathoners have quite a few keto/low carb athletes doing better than ever (their claim). Not sure that's all too different from road cycling, if you're riding for a lot of miles. I myself don't really like going long distance, running or riding. I pretty much only do hill workouts with higher intensity. For me, I can get away with it for a few sessions with low/no carbs but after a number of days I feel very run down and will gorge on some carbs. Now the LC/ZC would just say I need to stick it out and adapt for longer... but I gave it a shot for 2 months at an earlier point in time and still suffered from the same results. So for me I stick with the low carb mainly carnivore (no vegetables etc) style until my body tells the dumb brain upstairs to eat something else for a day. 

From my researching around, it seems that genetics play a huge role in which diet works best for you. I don't advocate people eat any such way or claim one is better than the other. 
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13842
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2020 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Endurance athletes dont seem to suffer much from low carb or zero carb.
 


I don't know about other sports but road cyclists would suffer horribly on that diet, especially in stage races.  Geardaddy if he is around can confirm.

But anyway, as NL points out, he has a special motivation for being able to maintain a diet that most people can't do.  Severe pain and disability is a pretty good motivator.

one thing for sure is that losing weight however you manage to do it can reduce TT-induced injuries a lot.



I saw a road cyclist in YouTube who says the diet improved his performance.  He may be lying but he may also not be.  Like I said, it is something that everyone who has not given themselves a period to adapt says will never work.  Then they do it and get surprised when their performance is very close to and sometimes even better than what they had before going on the diet.


There is a literature in sports science on this that backs up what I say.  One guy on youtube means nothing, and to be convinced I would need actual numbers like sustained power/kg, VO2 max, stuff like that.  Not just "I go faster".  In fact, I would need a controlled study with a minimum of 10 people per group, and I would need some really careful testing of outpubts. On the converse, there is another notorious cycling youtuber who goes to the other extreme and says that people should only eat very high carb vegan diets. A lot of what he says in his videos is nonsensical. 

Of course you could be right that people just don't stay on it long enough to adapt to maintain good glycogen stores based entirely on amino acid and fat metabolism. From what I know about energy metabolism (and I teach this stuff) makes me think a no-carb diet would be a bad idea for that sport.  I don't want to argue though.  The fact is that the vast majority of people will not stay on a no-carb diet for a long time.  

But a low carb diet is still probably the best option people have for reduction of adipose tissue and weight loss.  Again, reduction of insulin surges.


Edited by Baal - 03/03/2020 at 4:36pm
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13842
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2020 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Also ultra-marathoners have quite a few keto/low carb athletes doing better than ever (their claim). Not sure that's all too different from road cycling, if you're riding for a lot of miles. I myself don't really like going long distance, running or riding. I pretty much only do hill workouts with higher intensity. For me, I can get away with it for a few sessions with low/no carbs but after a number of days I feel very run down and will gorge on some carbs. Now the LC/ZC would just say I need to stick it out and adapt for longer... but I gave it a shot for 2 months at an earlier point in time and still suffered from the same results. So for me I stick with the low carb mainly carnivore (no vegetables etc) style until my body tells the dumb brain upstairs to eat something else for a day. 

From my researching around, it seems that genetics play a huge role in which diet works best for you. I don't advocate people eat any such way or claim one is better than the other. 


This is a pretty good video that summarizes some of the science.

Back to Top
Simas View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/04/2017
Location: EU
Status: Offline
Points: 404
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 6:29am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Part of the reason why people find it really hard to maintain a low carb diet is that they are told that the carbs are necessary to maintain optimal health.  I do accept and admit that the carbs are enjoyed by most people but even in cases where someone has and wants to enjoy a low or zero carb diet, you find some expert or doctor telling them that they need the carbs to be healthy. 

I don't think that it is hard to cut carbs because of that. I'd say it's the opposite, the main discourse now is that you should cut carbs, especially simple carbs. That's all over the place (by the way, I am not saying that experts saying to cut carbs (simple) are wrong.) 

The problem with cutting carbs is evolutionary -it's beneficial for our survival to take foods that are easily digestible and give us quick energy and that's why we like the sweet taste. Long long time ago, there were not a lot of such foods (basically ripe fruits) and our energy expenditure was high. Now the times have changed. We still have evolutionary preference for quick energy foods, but we don't have the same energy expenditure and the food is very available..

What I do, I simply don't buy such foods when shopping (ok, I must confess -if I go shopping before my training I buy a chocolate waffle, but I eat it before training LOLLOLLOL) and when I am at home and after my meal I want something comforting I simply don't have anything. Then I start searching my cupboards for the nth time, but if I haven't left anything there, there is nothing to find Wink -that's how I solve my junk food problem. To make shopping easier, there are such advises as planning before going shopping and going with full stomach. But I don't follow that.
Drop here!


Edited by Simas - 03/07/2020 at 6:30am
Stiga Offensive Classic Legend
DHS Hurricane Neo3
Donic Bluefire JP01 Turbo
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13309
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Simas Simas wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Part of the reason why people find it really hard to maintain a low carb diet is that they are told that the carbs are necessary to maintain optimal health.  I do accept and admit that the carbs are enjoyed by most people but even in cases where someone has and wants to enjoy a low or zero carb diet, you find some expert or doctor telling them that they need the carbs to be healthy. 

I don't think that it is hard to cut carbs because of that. I'd say it's the opposite, the main discourse now is that you should cut carbs, especially simple carbs. That's all over the place (by the way, I am not saying that experts saying to cut carbs (simple) are wrong.) 

The problem with cutting carbs is evolutionary -it's beneficial for our survival to take foods that are easily digestible and give us quick energy and that's why we like the sweet taste. Long long time ago, there were not a lot of such foods (basically ripe fruits) and our energy expenditure was high. Now the times have changed. We still have evolutionary preference for quick energy foods, but we don't have the same energy expenditure and the food is very available..

What I do, I simply don't buy such foods when shopping (ok, I must confess -if I go shopping before my training I buy a chocolate waffle, but I eat it before training LOLLOLLOL) and when I am at home and after my meal I want something comforting I simply don't have anything. Then I start searching my cupboards for the nth time, but if I haven't left anything there, there is nothing to find Wink -that's how I solve my junk food problem. To make shopping easier, there are such advises as planning before going shopping and going with full stomach. But I don't follow that.
Drop here!

My point is that even diabetics are told to eat carbs when carbs are part of the problem with the condition.  While there is a popular message to limit carb and sugar consumption, it is not as consistent as you might think.  The food pyramid spells this out.  It also isn't made clear that there isn't a huge distinction between carb and sugar consumption.  When people asked how much sugar I was taking, they never asked how much rice I Was eating.

Finally, fruits have been bred for sweetness over time.  Modern fruits aren't what fruits used to be like.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190
FH: T05H 1.9 B
BH: T05H 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
Back to Top
BH-Man View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4828
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2020 at 12:35am
Next Level has been figuring it out and getting it done.
Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13842
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2020 at 8:55am
Techically speaking, rapid spikes in blood glucose are the biggest problem for people with diabetes.  This can be minimized without eliminating all carbohydrates by eating complex highly branched chain carbs that take longer to digest and avoiding monosaccharides and disaccharides (sucrose, corn syrup) or unbranched polysaccharides.  In other words, low glycemic index (GI).  You can find charts of GI for vsriius foods on internet.  This is enough to keep A1c levels low. Experience has shown that most people can't sustainably eliminate an entire food group, brains are wired to make that difficult.  NL did it but most people just can't do it. 

If you eat like a diabetic, you will probably lose more weight for a given amount of calorie deficit than otherregimens.  But you still need a calorie deficit.


Edited by Baal - 03/09/2020 at 9:04am
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13309
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2020 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Techically speaking, rapid spikes in blood glucose are the biggest problem for people with diabetes.  This can be minimized without eliminating all carbohydrates by eating complex highly branched chain carbs that take longer to digest and avoiding monosaccharides and disaccharides (sucrose, corn syrup) or unbranched polysaccharides.  In other words, low glycemic index (GI).  You can find charts of GI for vsriius foods on internet.  This is enough to keep A1c levels low. Experience has shown that most people can't sustainably eliminate an entire food group, brains are wired to make that difficult.  NL did it but most people just can't do it. 

If you eat like a diabetic, you will probably lose more weight for a given amount of calorie deficit than otherregimens.  But you still need a calorie deficit.

Can you provide the studies that show that many people struggle to eliminate an entire food group and that our brains are hard wired not to do it?  Or is this something you are just certain of?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190
FH: T05H 1.9 B
BH: T05H 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13309
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2020 at 10:54am
Here are examples of the kind of thing I am talking about - people with McArdle disease struggle to use sugars in their muscles.  Some people with this disease have found that by using ketogenic diets, they can function fairly well and live symptom free.  Many doctors who are experts on McArdle say the same thing Baal says - McArdle never gets better, that they must be diagnosed wrong, the body/muscles needs carbs/sugars to function - the usual stories.  Of course no one is denying that sugar is sweet and that everyone might want to eat it if they could.  The question is that can you largely live without it and function fairly well?  And if so, are there many individuals who with this knowledge would not touch carbs at all or would everyone just decide to suffer because they want to eat carbs?


Not sure if there are a lot of trials for this - but this is what tends to happen if you go low to zero carb - lots of things get better, experts stuck in calorie deficit models have no explanations, and then they wonder why people become more and more skeptical about doctors.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/10/2020 at 5:34pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190
FH: T05H 1.9 B
BH: T05H 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
Back to Top
BH-Man View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4828
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2020 at 12:10pm
After decades and decades of lies, huge financial expenditures, and time, finally, it all caught up to the ones pushing cigarettes who thought they could perpetually fool/buy-off people and governments that cigarettes were not wildly unhealthy.

Some day, the day will come to the sugar beverage and processed sugars in food products people. Refined sugar and soy/flour carbs are highly inflammatory (and lead to many health disorders) and the companies design their products to be highly addictive. My Soldiers in Korea would consume TWO giant 24 oz cans of Monster energy drink... that is 81 grams of sugar per CAN to make it 162g of sugar BEFORE LUNCH !! We wonder why we got so much diabetes in USA.
Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3364
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2020 at 12:34am
One thing I found to be quite cool is that there's some healthy sugar replacements like stevia and xylitol which have close to 0 calories and yet satisfies the human craving for sweetness in foods....
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Orange Sponge
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.203 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
About MyTableTennis.NET | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2019 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.