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Feet and knee movement to facilitate hip rotation

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    Posted: 03/16/2020 at 8:27am
I've been meaning to record something like this but this is what I've been doing for my FH loops which is what I've settled on. Welcome all discussion!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6Finger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2020 at 8:39am
This kind of weight transfer isnt really optimal and its hard on lower back and especialy knee of the working leg.
Most of top chinese players use it so its popular...

Just for the sake of discusion try weight transfer from back to front with you legs and than rotate your shoulder with your arm for the swing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2020 at 11:12am
Originally posted by 6Finger 6Finger wrote:

This kind of weight transfer isnt really optimal and its hard on lower back and especialy knee of the working leg.
Most of top chinese players use it so its popular...

Just for the sake of discusion try weight transfer from back to front with you legs and than rotate your shoulder with your arm for the swing.

I am sure someone is going to comment on "hard on the lower back" (validate or invalidate).  Please explain what you mean by "isn't really optimal" ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2020 at 1:15pm
Power is lost if you rotate your feet, I prefer to stay flat-footed mostly or for loop kills lift left heel during the backswing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2020 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

Power is lost if you rotate your feet, I prefer to stay flat-footed mostly or for loop kills lift left heel during the backswing.

I felt that rotating the feet actually feels freer and better for the knees (less torque because it's allowed to move as you're rotating the whole body). I don't think it kills power at all, you still have the weight transfer between legs, in fact it promotes a fuller hip rotation with more degrees of freedom, and also more dynamic footwork.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2020 at 6:37pm
I like to think of that rotation from the perspective of a diver trying to go as low and as far as possible. At the end of the diving board they will bend over, crouch a bit and then push hard from their legs. In the tt forehand, if we do all that and push from the playing leg more, rotation happens and the hip kick  follows (see the other thread for that Wink). For teaching purposes it is good to have the 2 feet in a slight diagonal with the playing foot behind to underline the necessary forward motion that adds up so much: too often the 2 feet parallel to the end line is leaving power on the table Big smile.

To push the analogy and from the same teaching standpoint, an athletic way to train the fh loop is to jump over an imaginary circle. On our special clock for right handed (in parenthesis for lefties) people, if ready position is 9-3 (9-3), we jump at 10-4 (8-2) to achieve the back swing, load energy by crouching, push and jump to 8-2 (10-4) at the end of the swing, jump back to ready at 9-3 (9-3) and quickly start again. Coming back and make a little pause at 9-3 at the end is necessary because we theoretically do not know what will be coming and it adds one more little jump in the routine, which is the real point: Jumping!  from 1) ready to back swing 2) back swing to swing with some forward motion no matter how little, it has to be there 3) end of swing to ready.

It seems to me that technique has the knee joints and ankles protection built-in.

Fan Yiyong training at his club before the nationals gave me that jumping on the clock idea. He was playing strong late in life until Adam Hugh got him and he was still healthy. They used to call him the bull in the CNT in his younger years because he trained so hard. He stopped after 40 so he was doing something right technique wise to play that hard that late.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2020 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

I like to think of that rotation from the perspective of a diver trying to go as low and as far as possible. At the end of the diving board they will bend over, crouch a bit and then push hard from their legs. In the tt forehand, if we do all that and push from the playing leg more, rotation happens and the hip kick  follows (see the other thread for that Wink). For teaching purposes it is good to have the 2 feet in a slight diagonal with the playing foot behind to underline the necessary forward motion that adds up so much: too often the 2 feet parallel to the end line is leaving power on the table Big smile.

To push the analogy and from the same teaching standpoint, an athletic way to train the fh loop is to jump over an imaginary circle. On our special clock for right handed (in parenthesis for lefties) people, if ready position is 9-3 (9-3), we jump at 10-4 (8-2) to achieve the back swing, load energy by crouching, push and jump to 8-2 (10-4) at the end of the swing, jump back to ready at 9-3 (9-3) and quickly start again. Coming back and make a little pause at 9-3 at the end is necessary because we theoretically do not know what will be coming and it adds one more little jump in the routine, which is the real point: Jumping!  from 1) ready to back swing 2) back swing to swing with some forward motion no matter how little, it has to be there 3) end of swing to ready.

It seems to me that technique has the knee joints and ankles protection built-in.

Fan Yiyong training at his club before the nationals gave me that jumping on the clock idea. He was playing strong late in life until Adam Hugh got him and he was still healthy. They used to call him the bull in the CNT in his younger years because he trained so hard. He stopped after 40 so he was doing something right technique wise to play that hard that late.

I too feel that 90% of the power is from the push-off from the right leg, the rest is just making sure the power is effectively transferred to the ball! If there's no push off I feel I can never get a strong shot in. 

I agree with the right leg behind the left leg, it adds a lot of forward momentum and power to the FH shot, and has a lot less "elbow" weakness compared to a stance with feet parallel to the end line. I use a similar right foot to left foot weight transfer for the BH as discussed before (which is a very unique part of my game which many people have commented on when I play with them, it seems that most people are doing left to right weight transfer for BHs). 

Not too sure about the clock idea but I think the left leg should ideally be moving forward with a loop too, never backwards...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2020 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by 6Finger 6Finger wrote:

This kind of weight transfer isnt really optimal and its hard on lower back and especialy knee of the working leg.
Most of top chinese players use it so its popular...

Just for the sake of discusion try weight transfer from back to front with you legs and than rotate your shoulder with your arm for the swing.

I am sure someone is going to comment on "hard on the lower back" (validate or invalidate).  Please explain what you mean by "isn't really optimal" ?

I'm actually quite curious as to the reasoning too, because the only reason why I switched to such a movement (inspired by Tomokazu Harimoto) is to replace lumbar rotation and bending (rotating the left leg allows a lower position to be reached without bending at the lumbar), and also to ensure that the knees are always aligned with the feet when they are bearing weight from the body (was told about that from a physiotherapist in terms of the healthiest positions for the knees)

From what I observed, the CNT players do not rotate the left foot much during the backswing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6Finger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2020 at 9:15am
This is to complex to simply explain especialy in a foreign language.
I would need to make a video but lets try anyway.
This type of weight transfer you demonstraded lets call it "circular" makes you swing in a "circular" way, and that makes you rotate whole spine including lumbar part which really isnt made to be rotated. 
If you swing back in a way that your racket doesent leave your peripherial vision and if you need biger swing, swing down (look at Ryu Seung Min) than you can transfer weight from your working leg in a "straight" manner and continue you shot with your shoulder going straight which only makes your thoracic spine rotate a bit but in a safe zone.

Hope it explains it somewhat. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2020 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by 6Finger 6Finger wrote:

This is to complex to simply explain especialy in a foreign language.
I would need to make a video but lets try anyway.
This type of weight transfer you demonstraded lets call it "circular" makes you swing in a "circular" way, and that makes you rotate whole spine including lumbar part which really isnt made to be rotated. 
If you swing back in a way that your racket doesent leave your peripherial vision and if you need biger swing, swing down (look at Ryu Seung Min) than you can transfer weight from your working leg in a "straight" manner and continue you shot with your shoulder going straight which only makes your thoracic spine rotate a bit but in a safe zone.

Hope it explains it somewhat. 


The spine does not rotate relative to the hips with this method because the whole upper body is rotating, the rotation comes from the hips and not the lumbar. If you swing "down" that means you're dropping your playing side shoulder below the other shoulder, the only way you did that is by bending at the lumbar, which is a lot worse (ZJK, Waldner and Timo who use this method all have significant lumbar injuries)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2020 at 6:38pm
Blah blah blah! I was with you on the thoracic rotation, which saved my forehand attack side. But this one looks like an overly complex knee-tweaker. And for those reasons, I'm out! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2020 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Blah blah blah! I was with you on the thoracic rotation, which saved my forehand attack side. But this one looks like an overly complex knee-tweaker. And for those reasons, I'm out! 

How are you doing it otherwise?

Edit: I mainly use this hip rotation, combined with a little thoracic rotation (which really helps if I'm out of position). 

I believe Tt Gold over here has even more feet/knee rotation than me (think he pretty much has one of the best FH loops around here), and mickd from his pictures has something similar too. 



Edited by blahness - 03/17/2020 at 7:37pm
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