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random thought: pimples in sponge

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    Posted: 05/04/2020 at 6:27pm
The pimples of inverted rubbers are glued to the sponge. The glue is the only point of torsion at contact.

What if the pimples are slightly inserted in the sponge? Has that been asked before? in that imaginary technique, the sponge has many holes in which the pimples are glued. Now the glue actions from both the bottom of the pimples and part (or all) of their cylinder walls and it seems like the symbiosis between the sponge and the topsheet is much better integrated. From a sequence where the topsheet, glue and pimples do their thing on their own and just pass on the baby to the next, we get one event where the action of one sticks much more closely to what the other 2 do.

Today's technique suddenly looks so primitive because all the new, uncharted territories. What kind of feature do you think this would add to such a rubber? 

-if too much elasticity can harm control and predictability (or not?) , could we maybe achieve more control here simply by having a more homogeneous system? wishful thinking? or obvious?

-in conjunction with more tender/elastic rubber for the topsheet, could the fantasy technique allow softer sponge for the same spin and speed than today harder sponges, elevating the average quality of play of the whole intermediate segment for example?

- ?

Enough with the pimples directly glued on the sponge, that's a caveman show. If you want to keep milking us, you need to step it up now! Thank you all for diverting part of your R&D budget towards the future. LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/04/2020 at 7:14pm
I love ideas out loud like this. I unfortunately have ZERO idea what kind of an effect it would have as I am the opposite of a math/physics person but I'm curious to know.

Someone with a lot of patience and a lot of precision could get a topsheet and sponge, bore small individual holes into the sponge, fill it with glue one by one, and carefully align and place each pip of the topsheet individually into a hole. Then, using the same topsheet and sponge combination for a control, glue it together normally. Put the 2 rubbers on a blade and you have a pretty good test setup if you did it right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/04/2020 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

The pimples of inverted rubbers are glued to the sponge. The glue is the only point of torsion at contact.

What if the pimples are slightly inserted in the sponge? Has that been asked before? in that imaginary technique, the sponge has many holes in which the pimples are glued. Now the glue actions from both the bottom of the pimples and part (or all) of their cylinder walls and it seems like the symbiosis between the sponge and the topsheet is much better integrated. From a sequence where the topsheet, glue and pimples do their thing on their own and just pass on the baby to the next, we get one event where the action of one sticks much more closely to what the other 2 do.

Today's technique suddenly looks so primitive because all the new, uncharted territories. What kind of feature do you think this would add to such a rubber? 

-if too much elasticity can harm control and predictability (or not?) , could we maybe achieve more control here simply by having a more homogeneous system? wishful thinking? or obvious?

-in conjunction with more tender/elastic rubber for the topsheet, could the fantasy technique allow softer sponge for the same spin and speed than today harder sponges, elevating the average quality of play of the whole intermediate segment for example?

- ?

Enough with the pimples directly glued on the sponge, that's a caveman show. If you want to keep milking us, you need to step it up now! Thank you all for diverting part of your R&D budget towards the future. LOL


Would it be between the rubbers now and if you just glue a flat topsheet on a sponge?
Does anyone know why the pimple is necessary? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/04/2020 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

The pimples of inverted rubbers are glued to the sponge. The glue is the only point of torsion at contact.

What if the pimples are slightly inserted in the sponge? Has that been asked before? in that imaginary technique, the sponge has many holes in which the pimples are glued. Now the glue actions from both the bottom of the pimples and part (or all) of their cylinder walls and it seems like the symbiosis between the sponge and the topsheet is much better integrated. From a sequence where the topsheet, glue and pimples do their thing on their own and just pass on the baby to the next, we get one event where the action of one sticks much more closely to what the other 2 do.

Today's technique suddenly looks so primitive because all the new, uncharted territories. What kind of feature do you think this would add to such a rubber? 

-if too much elasticity can harm control and predictability (or not?) , could we maybe achieve more control here simply by having a more homogeneous system? wishful thinking? or obvious?

-in conjunction with more tender/elastic rubber for the topsheet, could the fantasy technique allow softer sponge for the same spin and speed than today harder sponges, elevating the average quality of play of the whole intermediate segment for example?

- ?

Enough with the pimples directly glued on the sponge, that's a caveman show. If you want to keep milking us, you need to step it up now! Thank you all for diverting part of your R&D budget towards the future. LOL


Would it be between the rubbers now and if you just glue a flat topsheet on a sponge?
Does anyone know why the pimple is necessary? 

to have catapult effect
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/04/2020 at 9:40pm
yes Mykonos points at the purpose of the pimples and isn’t that purpose enhanced when the bottom of the pips relies on so much more résistance from a (base circle + cylinder) of glue v. a mere base circle of it? I expect more energy to be used in a useful way n the catapult effect (better focus of the rebound, less waste).

Edited by stiltt - 05/04/2020 at 9:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/04/2020 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

I love ideas out loud like this. I unfortunately have ZERO idea what kind of an effect it would have as I am the opposite of a math/physics person but I'm curious to know.

Someone with a lot of patience and a lot of precision could get a topsheet and sponge, bore small individual holes into the sponge, fill it with glue one by one, and carefully align and place each pip of the topsheet individually into a hole. Then, using the same topsheet and sponge combination for a control, glue it together normally. Put the 2 rubbers on a blade and you have a pretty good test setup if you did it right.
I agree with you, there might be a little of ping pong intellectual masturbation on my part with that idea, the work involved might be way too much for any useful return, I am just curious and like you I do lack the physics knowledge so I am asking here because we have physics gurus here. (uh-ohhh j/k).
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Edited by stiltt - 05/04/2020 at 10:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Giant dwarf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2020 at 11:40am
so i am no where near a expert but i have a observation i made in the past,i had a sheet of 729 batte 2 where i riped the topsheet of bacause i was curious how the top sheet looked,i noticed at the places where the pips where glued to the sponge the where dent in the rubber,so maybe they are already kind of doing it ,please correct anything if i said something thats wrong 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2020 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by Giant dwarf Giant dwarf wrote:

so i am no where near a expert but i have a observation i made in the past,i had a sheet of 729 batte 2 where i riped the topsheet of bacause i was curious how the top sheet looked,i noticed at the places where the pips where glued to the sponge the where dent in the rubber,so maybe they are already kind of doing it ,please correct anything if i said something thats wrong 


Yes, there are slight dimples there that leave a type of honeycomb pattern. However, I think he means having actual holes in the sponge.

Also, stiltt, is your idea to have the hole be deep enough to fit the entire pip so that the topsheet lays flat and snug against the sponge? Or do you mean for the pip to go part way into the sponge still leaving some room between the topsheet and sponge?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2020 at 4:05pm
I would think part way so we change a bit at a time. We still want the catapult effect so I doubt sinking the whole cylinders in the sponge would give good results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2020 at 4:56pm
THE POCKMARKS.
Quote 2.4.5 The blade, any layer within the blade and any layer of covering material or adhesive on a side used for striking the ball shall be continuous and of even thickness.
Sponge surface covered with pockmarks all over. No way would it be "of even thickness", I believe firmly.

Edited by igorponger - 05/05/2020 at 4:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2020 at 7:44pm
I personally get on well with rubbers with the shortest possible interior pops, like Nexy Karis or Stiga Mantra.  After T05 it took a little getting used to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2020 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

THE POCKMARKS.
Quote 2.4.5 The blade, any layer within the blade and any layer of covering material or adhesive on a side used for striking the ball shall be continuous and of even thickness.
Sponge surface covered with pockmarks all over. No way would it be "of even thickness", I believe firmly.
Yes, I think you are right but can't we then argue that the pips themselves mean that ALL rubbers are illegal, ALL OF THEM? because the pips, in or out, represent a lack of evenness don't they? So if they make an exception for the pips, they will hopefully be willing to do the same for the holes in the sponge in which the pips will go. Actually, think of it: the holes in the sponge will increase evenness, YES! Wink

edit: never mind. the pimples ARE defined in the rules.


Edited by stiltt - 05/05/2020 at 11:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2020 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I personally get on well with rubbers with the shortest possible interior pops, like Nexy Karis or Stiga Mantra.  After T05 it took a little getting used to.

the shorter the pip the lower the arc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/08/2020 at 5:23pm
Tenergy 25, Karis, they offer so much control. That's why I ask about the pips dipped into the sponge, it could help getting that control AND keep the catapult. The level of engineering required to achieve a streamlined process might be too big an endeavor though but I doubt it would be declared illegal if there is a way to do it, it would be a flagrant impeachment of innovation. I bet the lobbying to make it legal would not be too hard for a big company but if it's a smaller shop coming with the technique?

Edited by stiltt - 05/08/2020 at 5:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2020 at 8:26am
I think in effect your pips would have less sponge. Because from the bottom of the pip to the wood, there would simply be less. That effect wouldn't be entire because you'd be pulling sponge from the sides as well, but I think generally speaking when you flatten out Pips or shorten them, the rubber plays flatter. For example 729 used to have their 2000 top sheet which was a stubby pip and their FX which was a really long pip. The 2,000 had a much better short game and pushed flatter and the FX gave more topspin

I suppose you could have a longer pip produced. Then I feel like it would just play normally.


Edited by cole_ely - 05/12/2020 at 8:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2020 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Tenergy 25, Karis, they offer so much control. That's why I ask about the pips dipped into the sponge, it could help getting that control AND keep the catapult. The level of engineering required to achieve a streamlined process might be too big an endeavor though but I doubt it would be declared illegal if there is a way to do it, it would be a flagrant impeachment of innovation. I bet the lobbying to make it legal would not be too hard for a big company but if it's a smaller shop coming with the technique?


Sure, not all people would enter competitions. You are free to supply any rubbers on market, weird freaky rubbers would do as well for recreational activities.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2020 at 5:47am
putting holes in the sponge would need a new mold for the sponges and also an additional type. Of manufacturing since the pips would be placed on each hole. Problem is it would also add costs to manufacturing. It might increase durability but which manufacturer would want that? They will be selling less amount of such rubbers. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2020 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I think in effect your pips would have less sponge. Because from the bottom of the pip to the wood, there would simply be less. That effect wouldn't be entire because you'd be pulling sponge from the sides as well, but I think generally speaking when you flatten out Pips or shorten them, the rubber plays flatter. For example 729 used to have their 2000 top sheet which was a stubby pip and their FX which was a really long pip. The 2,000 had a much better short game and pushed flatter and the FX gave more topspin

I suppose you could have a longer pip produced. Then I feel like it would just play normally.
Yes, the pips would be longer to accommodate whatever is inserted in the sponge if we have to compare characteristics with what is existing now. Then I assumed that the added resistance at the base of the pips will absorb energy in a more predictable way, giving additional control overall. 

It is just speculation of course but it feels like a stronger base -and maybe thinner pips?- will make the pips slingshot more. There is a lot of room to play with the length and thickness of the pips when we change how harder it is attached to the sponge and sure enough, pips glued inside the sponge adds a lot of resistance so now the pips can be thinner and slingshot like crazy and then we can can shorten them maybe? just thinking out loud...

Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

putting holes in the sponge would need a new mold for the sponges and also an additional type. Of manufacturing since the pips would be placed on each hole. Problem is it would also add costs to manufacturing. It might increase durability but which manufacturer would want that? They will be selling less amount of such rubbers. 
yes, only a dynamic but established company aiming at the top of the world would do it, assuming it's a good idea which is not a certainty at all LOL. Releasing just another rubber is so hard to push now, the diminishing returns navigate at cruising speed. A young unknown company would have to bet all their assets on it, it's less likely but who knows? such a group would probably license/sell the method to a bigger company anyway.

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