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Maze Chicken Wing Fh

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mjamja View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07/27/2020 at 8:21pm
I have been struggling trying to generate speed and spin with my Fh loop.  Ater trying many things I decided to try the Maze " chicken wing" technique from that comparison video of his stroke vs Wang Liquin.  

Suddenly I was hitting loops equivalent to those I usually see from players with good Fh loops (what you see from almost all players over 2000).  Not sure about my consistency yet, but initially it seems to have improved also.  My form in the follow through also seems to have gotten to look a lot more standard.

I am not sure I want to continue with this different technique because of uncertainty about what it will do to looping underspin and how it will affect my Fh Bh transition.

What could be wrong with my regular technique that making this change suddenly makes the ball quality so much better?  What can I do without resorting to such a drastic  change to get the good ball quality this "chicken wing" stroke seems to give me?

Mark - Inquiring minds want to know


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2020 at 4:26am
I always thought 'chicken wing' was simply the correct way for non-Chinese trained players since the shorter movement makes recovery more manageable for average players. 

As regards lifting backspin with this technique, so long as the wrist is loose and you let the head of the bat point down it should be fine. 

Could we see a side-by-side video please comparing your new stroke to your old one?Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2020 at 4:58am
Reallly glad you are hitting those cracking forehands mjamja Smile Thumbs Up

Sometimes doing what works is better than trying what is elite level correct for the top couple of  percent if that makes sense. They are an athlete and most of us aren't playing at that level.

Cracking that you are making quality with a little tweek here and there and adjustment. Good to see!

This might be a bit controversial ...
Not all Chinese coached general players are strong/elite players or better. So I'm guessing they are average players as well if you keep appples with apples... who most likely have the same problem of not being able to make the ball and must adjust a bit.  At the top of course the elite Chinese team is outstanding for sure.

Slightly different concept but one of my old martial arts instructors said do what works consistently for your size,build and age and gives quality if you are under pressure.

Love to see you hitting some boomers btw Mjamja! Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2020 at 5:28am
I have a different take on this that might be helpful.  But without seeing the video it could be off.

I don't consider the main issue to be about whether you use a chicken wing or not. I think the main issue is how well you control the elbow positioning of your stroke and tighten up the backswing.  Many people who have straight arm topspin without good coaching or practice often don't have a tight backswing (elbow close to the body).   So the elbow drifts away from the body when they want to play a forehand.  When they go to a chicken wing, the elbow never drifts away.  The top Chinese usually combine a close to the body backswing with a straighter forward swing (I am oversimplifying as they often also are more athletic and fold the torso more aggressively), but they tend to have very strong control of their elbow positioning relative to their core at all times.   So you rarely get the upper arm/elbow massively out of sync with the core rotation.

The top Chinese also line up with the ball.before swinging forward on their practice strokes.  Most amateurs who.dont have tight backswings often just swing from where their backswing ends and this is often behind the body if you don't line up with the ball before coming forward.  Chickenwinging usually means you don't backswing out of line with the ball so you swing straight into it.  So for most players who haven't learned to control their elbow position on the backswing and line up before swinging forward, they will get more consistent Results with a chickenwing backswing because their core rotation will track their swing. Better and their upper arm will be better supported by their body on both backswing and forward swing. 


Edited by NextLevel - 07/28/2020 at 5:32am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2020 at 5:43am
nice NL Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2020 at 7:11am
Tbh the straight arm forehand is a misnomer. The arm is actually mostly bent at roughly 90 deg with the elbow close to the body. Then as your swing towards the ball, your forearm will lag a bit which straightens it out in preparation for the powerful contraction during the stroke. 

So it goes from bent - straight - bent. 

If the arm is still straight during the backswing, then firstly you don't get a chance to relax your arm so there's less explosiveness. Secondly the straight arm makes your backswing slower due to the additional rotational inertia. 

So going from bent - straight - bent allows you to have the best of both worlds, having a compact and quick backswing and also being able to contract during the stroke for some sweet extra acceleration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2020 at 7:29am
sometimes when I catch the ball close to my body it feels like the power transfers better from my feet and body. Otherwise I probably use too much arm

Edited by cole_ely - 07/28/2020 at 7:30am
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Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2020 at 4:47pm
Thanks guys.  I should have been more clear.  I have always used a bent arm Euro stroke.  What I changed was from a neutral (what I see in most players) wrist to the cocked forward wrist position that is so apparent in the Maze-Liquin video.  This extreme forward cocking of the wrist just seems to make everything work differently.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2020 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Thanks guys.  I should have been more clear.  I have always used a bent arm Euro stroke.  What I changed was from a neutral (what I see in most players) wrist to the cocked forward wrist position that is so apparent in the Maze-Liquin video.  This extreme forward cocking of the wrist just seems to make everything work differently.

Mark

It varies - it probably has its limitations as well.  You are possibly hitting the ball a bit more solidly on the side and also, your stroke now allows the rotation of the elbow that powers the wrist to add more forward motion to the ball.  But there are some limitations in flicking or playing fade shots if you don't know how to adapt your grip.  My position on these things in general is to find something that gives you a good stroke and over time feel comfortable switching your grip to use the technique you want to use.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2020 at 5:30pm
I always thought that the straighter the arm during a fh loop, the harder the job from the legs: as we bring the elbow closer to the body, we need less strength from the legs to achieve the same paddle speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2020 at 12:00am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Thanks guys.  I should have been more clear.  I have always used a bent arm Euro stroke.  What I changed was from a neutral (what I see in most players) wrist to the cocked forward wrist position that is so apparent in the Maze-Liquin video.  This extreme forward cocking of the wrist just seems to make everything work differently.

Mark

You may have "discovered" the classic forearm pronation action which is very, very important in spin production... with more spin you can add more power more confidently while maintaining a healthy margin of error. 

All the pros use it whether it being "straight arm" or bent arm FH...including Wang Liqin. It's just not so visible because the entire swing is in a very smooth plane rather than Maze's version which is jerkier (but shows the mechanism more clearly).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2020 at 9:42am
I always thought "chicken wing FH" was a European thing... looking at Maze, Boll, etc. But if you want to see the most extreme case of it, watch Jun Mizutani train. What's interesting no one else on the Japanese team has this kind of FH. Not Koki Niwa or Harimoto or Yoshimura or anyone else really.


Despite his extreme chicken wing style, he manages to produce massive spin and power.. Look here



Edited by notfound123 - 07/29/2020 at 9:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2020 at 10:05am
Originally posted by notfound123 notfound123 wrote:

I always thought "chicken wing FH" was a European thing... looking at Maze, Boll, etc. But if you want to see the most extreme case of it, watch Jun Mizutani train. What's interesting no one else on the Japanese team has this kind of FH. Not Koki Niwa or Harimoto or Yoshimura or anyone else really.


Despite his extreme chicken wing style, he manages to produce massive spin and power.. Look here


Mizutani had a French coach for a while as a young player.  He probably modified his forehand under that influence.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2020 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Mizutani had a French coach for a while as a young player.  He probably modified his forehand under that influence.

Didn't know this... makes sense then. Still even with this FH he managed to become Japan's best player and has been their top guy for so many years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2020 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by notfound123 notfound123 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Mizutani had a French coach for a while as a young player.  He probably modified his forehand under that influence.

Didn't know this... makes sense then. Still even with this FH he managed to become Japan's best player and has been their top guy for so many years.

Yeah - per Schlager, the things that make great players great are not found in the textbooks... that said I watch this training video of Mizutani and Niwa a lot and have always enjoyed watching Mizutani's technique as contrasting different styles helps me learn a lot.

I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2020 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by notfound123 notfound123 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Mizutani had a French coach for a while as a young player.  He probably modified his forehand under that influence.

Didn't know this... makes sense then. Still even with this FH he managed to become Japan's best player and has been their top guy for so many years.

Yeah - per Schlager, the things that make great players great are not found in the textbooks... that said I watch this training video of Mizutani and Niwa a lot and have always enjoyed watching Mizutani's technique as contrasting different styles helps me learn a lot.


Nice, thanks. The other thing is when he plays matches he lets his arm loose. His chicken wing isn't as noticeable.  
Watch Koki Niwa here, he's a pure textbook, technique-wise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2020 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by notfound123 notfound123 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by notfound123 notfound123 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Mizutani had a French coach for a while as a young player.  He probably modified his forehand under that influence.

Didn't know this... makes sense then. Still even with this FH he managed to become Japan's best player and has been their top guy for so many years.

Yeah - per Schlager, the things that make great players great are not found in the textbooks... that said I watch this training video of Mizutani and Niwa a lot and have always enjoyed watching Mizutani's technique as contrasting different styles helps me learn a lot.


Nice, thanks. The other thing is when he plays matches he lets his arm loose. His chicken wing isn't as noticeable.  
Watch Koki Niwa here, he's a pure textbook, technique-wise.
I think everyone who cares about practice lines up their forehand in practice - in matches, they just swing.  I think Mizutani's chicken wing is noticable but like all good players, he doesn't swing one way at the ball.  Even Timo straightens his arm sometimes.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2020 at 5:17am
I tend to do Wang Liqin style of forehand, but it occurs to me that sometimes I over swing.  Thus one coach once told me to shorten my swing, especially when looping near table.   I feel like the control is increased when you have shorter swing, but I will say that it still is far from the "chicken wing" looping style (I mean, it is still chinese style whole arm looping).

I once tried chicken wing style looping but it felt awkward, thus I came back to do what felt natural to me.  So I guess you need to find what feels natural to you.
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