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Forehand Tosppin need advice!!!

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PhilippVttc View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/20/2020 at 7:06pm
Hi guys,

Im currently trying to develop a good forehand Tosppin and i would love to get some advice and Feedback to it


Im sorry if this migbt have a not that great resolution
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2020 at 12:47am
Hello)
First thing to advice, try to find better.sparring or advice current one to block from bh - it will be much more stable.
Second thing is what I liked is the jump each time to get to proper position  before hitting the ball . Advice is to continue doing that)
3 - pay attention to the direction of your right foot. The position slightly dances that's why sometimes you are rolling with your knees sometimes shuffling sometimes move your weight center together with step.
4 - your wrist works too much, so hits are not consistent in terms of amount of rotation, length, placement of a ball. It makes harder to your partner to return the ball back to you.
My level is not so good is kinda 2100 or 2200 ish, so Take my words via prism of smile)) but I really want to help


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2020 at 2:20am
1. Shorts are too high, joke
2. Some unnecessary movements with the wrist amd racket during and after contact. 
3. Extend the elbow some more on backswing. 
4. Free arm is clipped tightly affecting your shoulder and torso rotation and also making your body a bit more stifg. 
5. Lean forward a bit more. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2020 at 3:47am
it's a bit too jerky a stroke I feel, but some players do make jerky strokes work... i like to think of the racket following a smooth swing plane from bottom right to top left, I find it gives a lot more control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhilippVttc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2020 at 5:01am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

1. Shorts are too high, joke
2. Some unnecessary movements with the wrist amd racket during and after contact. 
3. Extend the elbow some more on backswing. 
4. Free arm is clipped tightly affecting your shoulder and torso rotation and also making your body a bit more stifg. 
5. Lean forward a bit more. 


What do you mean with "unnecessary movements?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhilippVttc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2020 at 5:01am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

1. Shorts are too high, joke
2. Some unnecessary movements with the wrist amd racket during and after contact. 
3. Extend the elbow some more on backswing. 
4. Free arm is clipped tightly affecting your shoulder and torso rotation and also making your body a bit more stifg. 
5. Lean forward a bit more. 

What do you mean with unnecessary movements?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2020 at 7:40am
Originally posted by PhilippVttc PhilippVttc wrote:

Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

1. Shorts are too high, joke
2. Some unnecessary movements with the wrist amd racket during and after contact. 
3. Extend the elbow some more on backswing. 
4. Free arm is clipped tightly affecting your shoulder and torso rotation and also making your body a bit more stifg. 
5. Lean forward a bit more. 

What do you mean with unnecessary movements?

Your wrist is too loose i'm seeing it move after contact and follow through. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2020 at 6:39pm
Looking at some of my play and yours. The speed of your shot is good but the spin is significantly lower.

there isn't much acceleration vertically or over the ball before the hit and more after, you have an okay looking stroke but you hit the ball before your raquet has reached its highest acceleration.

This is common on what I think of as a pre-looping player (or it reminds me of my "good backhands"). Not to say you can't loop but lots of the action happens after the fact. 


Edited by passifid - 08/21/2020 at 6:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2020 at 6:42pm
looks good overall to me though and is probably better off seeking a IRL coach than here. you look like you are a good player from this excert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2020 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by passifid passifid wrote:

This is common on what I think of as a pre-looping player (or it reminds me of my "good backhands"). Not to say you can't loop but lots of the action happens after the fact. 
What you are speaking about is not a "pre-looping" player.
This technique is used in so called "close to table" FH topspin.
It is used in training for better going to "position of readiness" and also to better movement.
It's vastly used for juniors and women table tennis in rating games.

The same stuff for your "good backhands" they probably were really good - if you used them in close to table game.
It's ok to use such a technique for close to table game and even more - it's advised.

Second technique that you described - not better not worse - it's just for different thing.
It's more about wider movements.

Speaking about that different technique we should properly distinguish terms and not to mix them:
1) fast topspin - topspin just after the bounce;
 vice-versa when topspin is after the highest point - it's slow one.
So main is tempo - when hit earlier - you have fast tempo; if later - slow tempo;

2) powerful topspin - when you hit into the ball not brush it over the top;
 vice-versa when you more brush the top than hit into center - it's spinny/rotative one.
BTW not necessarily spinny topspin will have more spin than powerful one.

This young guy on video is using rotative topspin.
As for me he should more pay attention to consistency of strokes and proper legs positioning and movement.
Main mistake that he does - he violates the rule of triangle - hits not at an isosceles triangle point but prior to that.
Speaking about highest point or just after highest point - he hits it in proper time - but mistake is for his own body placement at that moment.

All that was IMHO except of terminology - it's used by many trainers so they taught me it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2020 at 8:52pm
My backhand is awful compared to the forehand in question I just mean that I do a big afterswing and a short actual stroke. The quality is not comparable. You advice remains though and I dont think he can't loop as mentioned. I can forehand loop no issue and I am sure he is better than me. 

Edited by passifid - 08/21/2020 at 8:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhilippVttc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2020 at 9:53am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by passifid passifid wrote:

This is common on what I think of as a pre-looping player (or it reminds me of my "good backhands"). Not to say you can't loop but lots of the action happens after the fact. 
What you are speaking about is not a "pre-looping" player.
This technique is used in so called "close to table" FH topspin.
It is used in training for better going to "position of readiness" and also to better movement.
It's vastly used for juniors and women table tennis in rating games.

The same stuff for your "good backhands" they probably were really good - if you used them in close to table game.
It's ok to use such a technique for close to table game and even more - it's advised.

Second technique that you described - not better not worse - it's just for different thing.
It's more about wider movements.

Speaking about that different technique we should properly distinguish terms and not to mix them:
1) fast topspin - topspin just after the bounce;
 vice-versa when topspin is after the highest point - it's slow one.
So main is tempo - when hit earlier - you have fast tempo; if later - slow tempo;

2) powerful topspin - when you hit into the ball not brush it over the top;
 vice-versa when you more brush the top than hit into center - it's spinny/rotative one.
BTW not necessarily spinny topspin will have more spin than powerful one.

This young guy on video is using rotative topspin.
As for me he should more pay attention to consistency of strokes and proper legs positioning and movement.
Main mistake that he does - he violates the rule of triangle - hits not at an isosceles triangle point but prior to that.
Speaking about highest point or just after highest point - he hits it in proper time - but mistake is for his own body placement at that moment.

All that was IMHO except of terminology - it's used by many trainers so they taught me it.

I just read your answer👍 what do you mean with the rule of triangle? Here in germany we have a golden triangle rule. This rule says that if you hold your two arm together in front of your body,it forms a triangle and we should hit the ball in that are,preferably where our two hands contact in front of us. Do you mean that with triangle rule .( My golden triangle explanation doesnt sound that good, maybd because it is harder to explain in english than in german for me. Hope you understood my golden trsingle rule tho😂)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhilippVttc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2020 at 10:04am
Originally posted by passifid passifid wrote:

looks good overall to me though and is probably better off seeking a IRL coach than here. you look like you are a good player from this excert

I have 930 ttr points( germany) 😂😂
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2020 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by PhilippVttc PhilippVttc wrote:

I just read your answer👍 what do you mean with the rule of triangle? Here in germany we have a golden triangle rule. This rule says that if you hold your two arm together in front of your body,it forms a triangle and we should hit the ball in that are,preferably where our two hands contact in front of us. Do you mean that with triangle rule .( My golden triangle explanation doesnt sound that good, maybd because it is harder to explain in english than in german for me. Hope you understood my golden trsingle rule tho😂)
I believe you have the same rule. 
Just would like to explain what I meant better.
Sorry for my skills in drawings :) I am really bad in it:
And what I meant it should be from my opinion:


So from my side there is no objections for you place of hit from just after the highest point of ball flight - it can be Ok-ish.
What I did not like - is that you loose the energy taken from your legs as your triangle may be triangle, but the weight transfer is not Ok as your leg is not in right position for the situation.

Also what I would like to mention - angle in elbow:
Your current variant:

And angle to be:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2020 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by PhilippVttc PhilippVttc wrote:

Originally posted by passifid passifid wrote:

looks good overall to me though and is probably better off seeking a IRL coach than here. you look like you are a good player from this excert

I have 930 ttr points( germany) 😂😂
I am not sure about my points in Germany (ttr points) :) 
I am not competing guy right now - we have isolation in US.
USATT rating before was something like 2100-2200. 
Saw the table of correspondence here on this site - it could be something like 1800 in ttr. (USATT - 300/400)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2020 at 1:28pm
The stroke can be better but the stroke is fine.  You just need to swing faster and turn the ball more.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2020 at 2:08pm
Hello people, I just would like to underline blahness' use of the word "jerky" above:


That clip was 10 years ago my absolute reference re. forehand technique and I used it in so many topics. I had lost it. I am so glad this thread encouraged me to find it back because it is still golden to learn how deep the fh technique goes when it's about efficiency AND health at the same time: because it shows Maze's "jerky" technique -I suppose that's what blahness means (?) - and in the background we see Ma Long's smoothness.

We know that people like Zhang Jike and Michael Maze got shot by injury while flying high up there and their career got hindered. We are not sure about anything but we have talked in the past about how the scrotum can be injured by jerky technique due to too high an angle the bottom of the spine rotates compared to the axis of the hips, this was a golden thread and one of my favorite ever on mytt; thanks blahness, to me that's your legacy here!!! Clap:

I thought it would be interesting to link in here because there is so much to it and I can see in the OP's video that there is a little risk that he goes towards Maze and Jike's path. However maybe I am exaggerating since the force put in the OP's stroke is not comparable to what top 10 do so but it is valuable from a pure technique standpoint.

So my grain of sale here is that the mechanics shown in the OP are too sequential and an event leads to the next in a brutal way with a break in between them (wearing out joints more?) instead of having better timing so the energy from the legs goes though the hips/spin/shoulder/arm/forearm smoothly. 

I am not sure I am clear enough but the clip I share might talk for itself. Thanks for sharing and way to go in the video!

Way to go!




Edited by stiltt - 08/22/2020 at 2:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2020 at 2:43pm
Yeah agree - what I meant above it's about elbow angle - it's ok for flat hits (smashes):
Zhan Jian:
Ito Mima:
In the past there was Jean-Philippe Gatien:

But as for me - in modern table tennis - it's just way less effective technique of topspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhilippVttc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2020 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Hello people, I just would like to underline blahness' use of the word "jerky" above:


That clip was 10 years ago my absolute reference re. forehand technique and I used it in so many topics. I had lost it. I am so glad this thread encouraged me to find it back because it is still golden to learn how deep the fh technique goes when it's about efficiency AND health at the same time: because it shows Maze's "jerky" technique -I suppose that's what blahness means (?) - and in the background we see Ma Long's smoothness.

We know that people like Zhang Jike and Michael Maze got shot by injury while flying high up there and their career got hindered. We are not sure about anything but we have talked in the past about how the scrotum can be injured by jerky technique due to too high an angle the bottom of the spine rotates compared to the axis of the hips, this was a golden thread and one of my favorite ever on mytt; thanks blahness, to me that's your legacy here!!! Clap:

I thought it would be interesting to link in here because there is so much to it and I can see in the OP's video that there is a little risk that he goes towards Maze and Jike's path. However maybe I am exaggerating since the force put in the OP's stroke is not comparable to what top 10 do so but it is valuable from a pure technique standpoint.

So my grain of sale here is that the mechanics shown in the OP are too sequential and an event leads to the next in a brutal way with a break in between them (wearing out joints more?) instead of having better timing so the energy from the legs goes though the hips/spin/shoulder/arm/forearm smoothly. 

I am not sure I am clear enough but the clip I share might talk for itself. Thanks for sharing and way to go in the video!

Way to go!


Hey mate,interesting topic. How can I increase the smoothness of my stroke?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2020 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by PhilippVttc PhilippVttc wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Hello people, ...
...
Way to go!

Hey mate,interesting topic. How can I increase the smoothness of my stroke?
It's hard to answer. I imagine you already know and you want different words on it, I'll try.

If we separate the events in the fh we have:

1-loading energy on the playing leg in the back swing
2-pushing off that leg
3-hips jerk (the only jerk allowed in the stroke)
4-hips rotation
5-torso rotation
6-with a dead shoulder, the arm balances forward from the torso rotation
7-the forearm finishes the work with a snap

Every event must start right before the next like the baton is passed in a relay in tracks and field: the receiver has started running to not lose speed gained buy the giver. If the timing is ideal, we have Ma Long above and the least negative impact on the body while maintaining highest speed for the paddle at contact.

Also we have talked many times here about starting slow in loading the backswing and finishing fast. It is harder to explain why it is a big factor; I guess if the loading is too fast, the rebound will be too jerky.

I suggest some mock Tai chi applied to the table tennis forehand in a shadow practice session: loading slow and doing it all progressively. By observing the paddle speed increase with more efficiency with the same energy input, we understand better the concept. I suggest doing it with your regular paddle in a room with complete silence (your basement in the middle of night when insomnia hits you): the wind noise produced by the blade is a great indicator. The exercise also is good for recovery and cardio training of course.

As said in the "Dangers of waist rotation" thread, keep in mind to NOT let your waist axis go too far ahead your hips axis. I like to imagine we should all learn the fh loop by jumping from our 2 feet on a circle and landing the 2 feet at the same time to make sure of that.

Another tip that I like A LOT is to consciously let the shoulder and the upper arm both COMPLETELY DEAD and have only the torso before and the forearm after do some work. Note that they are many schools about the wrist; with or without wrist action, the above is still valid and the shoulder and upper arm are just a big virtual joint in that training.

EDIT: that points to Brett Clarke's "Loop like a bear." http://mytabletennis.net/forum/playing-like-a-bear-brett-clarke_topic69208.html Too bad the video is not available online anymore. I guess I'll have to join.


Edited by stiltt - 08/22/2020 at 6:06pm
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