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Valiantsin hits the board!

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stiltt View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/28/2020 at 9:04pm
Hi all,

With Valiantsin's permission I wanted to point at a personal endeavor while Covid is hitting the world and tt has taken a bad hit in the face.

Some people like to stand on a board and paddle, some roll on a skateboard, surf on a surfboard and slide on a wakeboard; and some people are just bored (Wink Wink Shel). Is that it? nope, some like hitting a table tennis ball v. a returning board.

Robots are great but it's a whole other approach to training alone, it involves more money, more troubleshooting and more electronics/mechanics in our lives. The return board has that purity to it and gives total control to the player, there is a lot of value there. 

I never was interested to the point I'd try because I could afford a robot but I realize today I should have tried much earlier just for that reason: simplifying to the maximum so us players have total control and as a side effect nothing to blame but ourselves, it may solidify our mindset and self confidence with direct positive results playing people at the club. Thanks to Valiantsin for that video carrying some of the best of table tennis: keeping the ball in play and taking responsibility for it!

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Hi Valiantsin,

I saw your clip https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wK5vUAMyxSo on that other thread and it's very cool to watch, way to go!!!
 
Hi stiltt,

:) Thank you - i like to work with return board.
Actually it's a plywood piece from lowe's. - cost 14.99 (15 :) ) 

Bought 12 cheap rubbers for 40$ (actually a bit more - 41.6$) and voila :) 
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Do you have the possibility to place the board further away from the table so you can also loop deep balls close to the end line?
Yeah - I can move it wherever i need (and my basement allows :) )
But it becomes much easier to make rallies - longest was about 60 hits (not exist on video) as the tempo reduces drastically.

And I like to turn it to naked side and do against underspin shoots - the record is about 19 when is 1 meter away from the table - more is really physically difficult to me.
I prefer this training over robot training in case when need to train against underspin.

Robot as for me is good in serve returns plus 3d ball attack training - really should move fast.
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Bravo on the training, I like that quick wristy spinny bh a lot.
Thank you - I specially trained it, with fixed finish at the end - as previous movement was a side return one which was too unstable and too wide.

I have a video diary on how i changed and improved my hits together with training plans (made myself) 



Edited by stiltt - 08/28/2020 at 9:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2020 at 9:36pm
Hi guys :) 

Thank you stilltt for creating this topic!

Shortly about me: my name is Valiantsin, started to play/train 5 years ago at the age of 32 :)  

Yeah - I like playing with Return Board - it makes my hands more "straight" and grow from a right place :) 

And it's really cheap - just 100-200 training balls for 15-20 dollars and return board for total of 55 dollars.

Also I have some other training stuff: 
Pretty good but cheap robot (it has closed cycle of replenishing balls) and some other training stuff like heavy rocket (750gram), pack of big tennis balls and a big tennis rocket. 
Wooden heavy (240gram) blade to hit the wheel.
Two balls like:

But nevertheless I am bit of EJ guy :) 
Have 10 blades:
Xiom Feel ZX1 (my favorite one)
XVT Amultart clone :) 
Nittaku tenaly (curved handle :) ),
Butterfly: Mazunov, TB ALC, IFL ALC, Viscaria light (previous favorite), Joo Sae Hyuk (sometimes play chop-block or defence, but chop block prefer with IFL ALC, Viscaria and TB ALC - much more agressive with really good control) 
Yinhe t4s
Huieson 7ply  chinese penhold

And something like 20+ different rubbers from long/short pips to tenergy and d05-64.
Preferable rubber to play is fastarc G-1 for fh and fastarc C-1 for bh.


Let's share our table tennis training with Return Board (or may be something else) here in this topic :) 


Edited by Valiantsin - 08/28/2020 at 10:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2020 at 12:09am
I haven't really used a return board before, only robot... I guess the return board would be like a blocker so you would be able to train topspin vs block really well, whereas robot is probably more useful for like short game specialty strokes and maybe opening loops...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2020 at 12:13pm
I like the recovery part of it, the player forces a pace that they must handle, the quicker they play the more pressure on themselves. Keeping the ball in play is a fine balance between the swing and recovery. The robot can't offer that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2020 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I haven't really used a return board before, only robot... I guess the return board would be like a blocker so you would be able to train topspin vs block really well, whereas robot is probably more useful for like short game specialty strokes and maybe opening loops...
Hi blahness :) 

All further is my IMHO: 

I have both robot and RB.

As for me pluses of RB:
 - robot makes you robotized if you are making multiball for tempo - loose human feeling, after that come to tournament and feel something wrong - at training session everything seems ok and at real game you struggle with that loose of feeling - difficult to adjust. 
Some guys call it multiball champion syndrome :) 
 - RB is much cheaper and more durable :) robot is much easy to break, mine was breaking once per year.
 - multiball with robot makes you like a metronome - you start move with one and the same.

Minuses:
 - multiball with robot makes you like a metronome :) - it helps when you are trying to learn something new.
 - it is much worser than robot because can not serve :) 

So I use them both for different things :) 

For example - until you play against RB with reverse (side without rubber) when RB is 1.5 - 2 metres away from the table - you can practice a lot with multiball but can not achieve that really hard topspin with hit against backspin.
Moreover :) 
Even training against player will give you it only with huge time wasting - quite unique stuff.


The same stuff for flips - none of robots can make you practice of real ingame situation and none of them will teach you how to recover after the flip.

So finally you would got to the point that flip is just a start of attack - not a winning move, at the same time after such a training you can go to tournament and do your ordinary flip and get to ready position - but quality that you trained allows you just to win the point immediately :) 
Not always of course but very pleasant when happens :)

So for me RB is all about control or really hard power, while multiball is all about fitness and special drill training.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2020 at 6:16pm
Valiantsin wrote:
The same stuff for flips - none of robots can make you practice of real ingame situation and none of them will teach you how to recover after the flip.

Not sure why you feel that way.  The robots that have variable timing between shots and programmable sequences seem to me to be able to simulate game situations.  My Newgy had a great sequence with a short dead serve to Fh followed by a quick deep ball to the Bh.  You could adjust the timing to put yourself under as much time pressure after the flip as you could handle.

Maybe I am missing something.

Mark


Edited by mjamja - 08/29/2020 at 6:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2020 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Valiantsin wrote:
The same stuff for flips - none of robots can make you practice of real ingame situation and none of them will teach you how to recover after the flip.

Not sure why you feel that way.  The robots that have variable timing between shots and programmable sequences seem to me to be able to simulate game situations.  My Newgy had a great sequence with a short dead serve to Fh followed by a quick deep ball to the Bh.  You could adjust the timing to put yourself under as much time pressure after the flip as you could handle.

Maybe I am missing something.

Mark
Agree - you can somehow train flip as well. 

But some delays or vice versa rush will always take place - so that you will be training either one time shot or something that you can not directly insert to your games.

And the main trouble of robot - it is a canon, not something that returns you balls - so you do not take care of the place where the ball goes and immediately move your attention to the canon itself - so basically train constant return of attention to one place.

Also you do not care of consistency in terms of quality of the ball - I mean quantity of your spin or tension to the ball and speed (tempo or timing) - so each and any of the balls you hit can be of really different quality - so that you do not get the feedback after your shot so that the quality floats really much.

So yeah - robot is good to at start of learning, but after that in some cases - it just stopps or really delays your progress.

From other hand there starts to be moment when robot again returns to game :) 

So there is a circle of stages:
1) learn technics (for example of flip) with robot on multiball for example with huge pauses between shots.
2) insert it into the game with RB
3) master your flip with multiball from robot
4) insert this changes into game with RB 
....
5) Repeat points 3) and 4) till you are satisfied with the quality of element and it's liveness inside your game with opponent :) 

So my main point - it's good to mix training with different tools to get better result in quality of your TT technique, as they are complement each other with synergy :) 


Edited by Valiantsin - 08/29/2020 at 7:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2020 at 11:09pm
The returning board has value in keeping ourselves together, swinging what we can handle to keep the ball in play, it forces a dance with our game, the game.

Shadow practicing is the next step but without a coach, shadow practice may lead to bullshit while the returning board gives you immediate feedback: if you can't keep the ball in play, you are doing something wrong: that's what I learn from Valiantsin. I knew it but I am very happy he makes the point with hard work and guts to expose himeself after time spent editing the video etc...

Way to go Valiantsin! please keep the videos coming.

To all: please show us in video what you do with your returning board. If you are not comfy with editing video and putting it online like Valiantsin did, just ask us, we can help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2020 at 2:10am
Hi stilltt :)
 
Agree with your words: "if you can't keep the ball in play, you are doing something wrong" :)

Right now changed angle to bit more sharp with reverse RB and it is looking awful
- as there is not enough control yet from my side, but i am trying to become better in it :) 

Anyway - bit of some stuff with rubber first :) :

And after that my current nightmare:
Revers RB : BH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmUrY8__0B0
Reverse RB: FH ZX1
https://youtu.be/3X04z37FTyU
Reverse RB: BH + FH Amultart Clone + vega euro + r37
https://youtu.be/xst7iXx-MHw

In my defense can tell that it's much more difficult to control against pure plywood with revert than against plywood+rubber RB :) 

The aim finally is to achieve 20 in row hits, after that i will step away from this exercise and do something else.
So actually it will be exercise with robot on bh banana receive + bh or + fh attack 3d ball.


Edited by Valiantsin - 08/30/2020 at 10:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2020 at 8:38am
One more pretty good exercise that helps me in BH and FH thin balls trainings:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/07/2020 at 10:48pm
Installed RB 2 metres away from the table and tried to hit the board: 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2020 at 3:56am
I had an idea which you might wanna try out. So the idea is to practice 3rd balling after your serve. So what you can do is angle the RB, serve to the RB and do a 3rd ball. For eg short sidespin serve to RB which pops a bit, then BH chiquita. Or something along those lines!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2020 at 10:12am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I had an idea which you might wanna try out. So the idea is to practice 3rd balling after your serve. So what you can do is angle the RB, serve to the RB and do a 3rd ball. For eg short sidespin serve to RB which pops a bit, then BH chiquita. Or something along those lines!
Hi blahness,
Thank you - believe it's a pretty nice idea.
Will try to do something with it :) .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2020 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I had an idea which you might wanna try out. So the idea is to practice 3rd balling after your serve. So what you can do is angle the RB, serve to the RB and do a 3rd ball. For eg short sidespin serve to RB which pops a bit, then BH chiquita. Or something along those lines!
Hi blahness, 

Tried to execute the exercise that you advised.
There was funny moment on 0-40 :) 


As I see the next step - it will be more consistent service (need to have something more stable to return my service) and finally will start to play against RB :) .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 2:47am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I had an idea which you might wanna try out. So the idea is to practice 3rd balling after your serve. So what you can do is angle the RB, serve to the RB and do a 3rd ball. For eg short sidespin serve to RB which pops a bit, then BH chiquita. Or something along those lines!
Hi blahness, 

Tried to execute the exercise that you advised.
There was funny moment on 0-40 :) 


As I see the next step - it will be more consistent service (need to have something more stable to return my service) and finally will start to play against RB :) .

Looking very nice! That was what I was thinking about too...I guess you can serve shorter to get more tighter returns which will be more difficult to attack.

Lol the ball at 0:40 is actually really difficult to attack because it is so short and there's no forward momentum to borrow...my partner is very good at producing these kind of balls... For me best way to handle this is a tomahawk chop smash or Waldner style sideswipe flick...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 9:15am
Am I the only one who reads this over and over and thinks vandalism has hit the board?

Edited by cole_ely - 09/11/2020 at 4:13pm
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Am I the only one who reads this over and over and things vandalism has hit the board?
LOL. My first thought when I read the title was that Valiantsin was some drug!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 12:11pm
It's really pitty, that my name took much more attention than training videos against RB. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Looking very nice! That was what I was thinking about too...I guess you can serve shorter to get more tighter returns which will be more difficult to attack.

Lol the ball at 0:40 is actually really difficult to attack because it is so short and there's no forward momentum to borrow...my partner is very good at producing these kind of balls... For me best way to handle this is a tomahawk chop smash or Waldner style sideswipe flick...
Thank you blahness :) 

I tried to serve shorter - but without proper tool on that side - almost impossible to achieve some good receive from opponent side.

Yeah - it happened like 4 or 5 times actually (about the ball on 0:40 ) - so good chances to learn how to better move to deal with such a return.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

It's really pitty, that my name took much more attention than training videos against RB. 
they are just joking with you, no harm. See the bright side, they noticed you :)

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Looking very nice! That was what I was thinking about too...I guess you can serve shorter to get more tighter returns which will be more difficult to attack.

Lol the ball at 0:40 is actually really difficult to attack because it is so short and there's no forward momentum to borrow...my partner is very good at producing these kind of balls... For me best way to handle this is a tomahawk chop smash or Waldner style sideswipe flick...
Thank you blahness :) 

I tried to serve shorter - but without proper tool on that side - almost impossible to achieve some good receive from opponent side.

Yeah - it happened like 4 or 5 times actually (about the ball on 0:40 ) - so good chances to learn how to better move to deal with such a return.
I imagine it is hard to get a proper return but the exercise is interesting. With an open RB, serve underspin so the ball comes back low to mimic a push that ideally is long enough so it bounces once only and you can loop it real good. Is that what you tried to do?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 12:58pm
Hi stiltt :) 
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

they are just joking with you, no harm. See the bright side, they noticed you :)
Yeah - agree let's be positive :) 

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

I imagine it is hard to get a proper return but the exercise is interesting. 
With an open RB, serve underspin so the ball comes back low 
to mimic a push that ideally is long enough so it bounces once only and you can loop it real good. 
Is that what you tried to do?
Actually I tried to replicate the advised exercise: 
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I had an idea which you might wanna try out. 
So the idea is to practice 3rd balling after your serve. 
So what you can do is angle the RB, serve to the RB and do a 3rd ball. 
For eg short sidespin serve to RB which pops a bit, then BH chiquita.
 Or something along those lines!
Yet have no proper control over the return of my service - so the ball flies wherever it wants :) 

Need to think something on it.
Believe will need couple more cheap rubbers for that return service tool.

Meanwhile will train with what I have now - it's pretty addictive :) - mostly reminds me actual game.

Also will try not to make one time shots, but instead of the catching balls net (I use robot for this aim :) ) will set RB and will try to play following drill:
1) Service
-- move to proper position and get the return from tool
2) flick to BH of righty
-- move to proper position and get the return from RB
3) make one more intermediate BH closer to center of the table;  
-- move to proper position and get the return from RB
4) make FH smash/topspin winner to reverse diagonal

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2020 at 12:08am
Today made some training session: service + free style :) 
Finally relaxed a bit with RB BH+FH:

What I liked - a little bit better. 
What I didn't like - the height dances - I get up and bend over, instead of maintaining the same level during the game, this greatly affects stability.
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