Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  Help Desk Help Desk  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Glue Fight: Hide vs. PU
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login
tabletennis11.com

Glue Fight: Hide vs. PU

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Hipnotic View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/30/2019
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 186
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hipnotic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Glue Fight: Hide vs. PU
    Posted: 08/30/2020 at 7:30am
There is a lot of talk about hide glue and the great feeling it provides. I’m always skeptical of this kind of claims so I decided to test this myself by building two exact blades, with the only variable being the glue used. First I will give a brief description of these two glues:

Hide Glue: This is an animal protein based glue, which is water soluble. Because of this it is vastly used in instrument building and repair. The ease of reversibility allows luthiers to perform repairs without damaging the instrument by simply injecting moisture into the joint. The glue doesn’t penetrate the wood, instead it forms a layer over the material and bonds to it. This glue is hard to work with because it has to be applied while still hot. Because of this it has a very short open time, and if the layers aren’t clamped within this time frame a poor bond can be formed.

PU Glue: Polyurethane glue is a polymer based adhesive with great strength. It is waterproof once cured and it penetrates the pores of the wood forming a great bond. It is easier to work with because it has a relatively high open time.

Building procedure:

I decided to perform this test with a 5 ply composition similar to the perhaps most famous hide glue blade out there, the Nittaku Acoustic. But instead of using a Limba medial ply, I chose to use a harder but thinner Sycamore Maple layer. So, the composition is Limba / Sycamore / Kiri / Sycamore / Limba.

All the plies were carefully selected so that the weight before the glue was applied was the same. The method for applying the glue was the same on both blades, a layer of glue on both sides to be glued, and the blades were clamped at the same time, using the same pressure. 

The weight difference after the plies were glued and the shape was 0.6g, with the PU blade being the heavier. It wasn’t possible to keep the handles with the same exact weight but the difference was very small. The final weight of the blades was 89.5g for both.





Results:

These were my findings after testing both blades. The first difference I noticed was on the pitch while bouncing a ball on the bare blades. The Hide glue blade possessed a lower pitch, which was corroborated by the measured peak frequency. The Hide glue blade measured 1205 Hz while the PU measured 1227 Hz, a small but noticeable difference. This immediately told me the PU blade would be a little harder and stiffer. These were also the impressions I got during play. The Hide glue blade provides a slightly softer feeling, while the PU feels just a little harder and faster. 

Conclusion:
So, is there a difference? Short answer: Yes! But is one better than the other? Not necessarily…
I have a preference for softer blades so in this case my vote goes for the Hide glue blade, but I’m sure that a lot of people would prefer the more solid and direct feeling of the PU blade. This decision is very subjective and would depend on the player. Keep in mind that these differences were very small, and in a blind test some might not even notice the difference. There is also the matter of the amount of glue used. With hide glue a layer on each side is needed to have a perfect bond, but with PU glue I normally just need one layer to have a strong bond. So in the case of this test I used more glue than needed, which exacerbated the feeling. In retrospect, I should’ve built a third blade using this method...

SDC Handmade Blades Insta - @sdc_tt_blades
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Tinykin View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/30/2003
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 2251
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2020 at 9:07am
Interesting. Say that you waited about 6 months before using the blades, would there be any difference in your findings?
>65yo, presently overweight rather than obese.
Darker Speed90 with T05H/Dignics05 and Darker Imperial with D80/D05.

Delusion is an asset
Back to Top
Hipnotic View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/30/2019
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 186
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hipnotic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2020 at 9:41am
That's a good question. PU glue has a longer setting time, it takes a few hours until it's dry to the touch and a few more until it has completely cured, but once this happen it will remain stable. Hide glue on the other hand, has a faster setting time. It will set quicker but it will continue to loose moisture after a long period of time. So I suppose that in a few months time the blade will be a bit lighter (probably less than a gram) and a bit harder. But if that difference will be perceivable remains to be known. I will measure the peak frequency then to see if there is any change.
SDC Handmade Blades Insta - @sdc_tt_blades
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13994
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2020 at 10:23am
This is great.  You should let somebody else try them blind to see if they can discern a difference, ideally a few people.
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6490
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2020 at 10:41am
i feel like hide glue is more likely to come apart over time
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
Hipnotic View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/30/2019
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 186
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hipnotic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2020 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

This is great.  You should let somebody else try them blind to see if they can discern a difference, ideally a few people.

Yes, I'm gonna let my team mates have a go to get their opinion.

Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

i feel like hide glue is more likely to come apart over time

There is definitely a bigger risk and that is one of the downsides, and the reason I don't use it more often. If left in humid conditions there is a risk of separation. 
SDC Handmade Blades Insta - @sdc_tt_blades
Back to Top
doraemon View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/14/2007
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1672
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2020 at 10:25pm
I am really impressed that you did the experiment and share it here.

Thank you.

I would also state my opinion:
I think that people used to praise Acoustic because it was previously used by Ma Long and the impression of hide glue is "special glue" that is used for high price string instruments.

I believe if there are two identical blades, one built with hide glue and the other one built with other glue, with approximately equal weight and exact wood composition and thickness, I would say that most people can't really tell the difference.

People always say how sweet Acoustic and Violin feel in your hand.   From my experience, yes Violin felt different (or special as some might say) but I didn't feel anything special when using Acoustic.

So our mind set is already influenced by comments we read online so we thought that it was special.
FPBE
Vega Pro / Mark-V
Back to Top
Hipnotic View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/30/2019
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 186
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hipnotic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2020 at 3:39am
Yes I agree. They are good blades for sure, but as usual marketing hype and the fact that it was used by a pro player elevates the blade to an almost legendary status that shapes people's opinion beforehand.
SDC Handmade Blades Insta - @sdc_tt_blades
Back to Top
Hipnotic View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/30/2019
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 186
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hipnotic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 6:45am
Some time has passed and both blades have been played for a few weeks, but have been stored for most of the time. Measuring their current weights, the PU blade lost 0.3g while the hide glue one lost 0.8g. This is in line with what I was expecting, but the most interesting part is that the peak frequency is 1227 Hz for both. So, there was an increase of approximately 22 Hz in the hide glue blade, meaning it became a bit stiffer, while the other one remained stable. 

I will test both blades again to see if the changes in the numbers represent any real difference in the playing properties.
SDC Handmade Blades Insta - @sdc_tt_blades
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 11:01am
What about the total thickness? I suppose the hide glue one should be slightly thinner and thus slightly denser now than the PU one?
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
Hipnotic View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/30/2019
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 186
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hipnotic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

What about the total thickness? I suppose the hide glue one should be slightly thinner and thus slightly denser now than the PU one?

We can assume the moisture loss happened mostly in the glue layers that are already very thin to begin. Some shrinking is likely to have happened, but we are talking less than a tenth of mm here, so not something my calipers can measure.
SDC Handmade Blades Insta - @sdc_tt_blades
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 1:34pm
Another reason for the upshift in frequency could be due to cross-linking. Filler also affects the stiffness.

https://cool.culturalheritage.org/albumen/library/c20/vonendt1991.html
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
Hipnotic View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/30/2019
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 186
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hipnotic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 2:56pm
Probably. But chemistry is definitely not one of my areas of expertise Smile
SDC Handmade Blades Insta - @sdc_tt_blades
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2020 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.