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choppers using Inverted x2

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    Posted: 09/06/2020 at 4:07pm
Inspired by that thread http://mytabletennis.net/forum/topic88796_page1.html, I watched a few matches from the names mentioned and I am fascinated by those players who take a risk and allocate a lot of time to that inverted chopping skill on both wings. If they succeed it might mean the end of long pips. For that they must push the limits of what a person can do and that's a huge commitment: in case of a failure, a career at the top is over early. Many attempts may be necessary though before it eventually installs itself as a dominating style. Because the new variations, it's got to be a winning strategy, even if chops will ideally top at 20% of all strokes; or 15 or 25, who knows?

I really enjoy watching them play, their touch, resilience and fierce attitude amaze me. 

Question: there is that attacking slicing shot on top of the bounce I don't see them doing much: is it just too inferior to its topspin counterpart on those balls? they would be the best at getting the nastiest slices off of them, on balls that bounce mid table with a high arc.





Edited by stiltt - 09/06/2020 at 4:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejprinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2020 at 5:35pm
Victas had some videos with Yuto Muramatsu and Ojio Haruna.
I think the technique is changing for defenders. They use their backhand to kill now and they slice sideways. The moment they learn how to kill a soft/high topspin they are much more dangerous for attackers. I love chopping myself ... Hou Yingchao comes to mind:
I think he is probably the best defender right now.
 


Edited by ejprinz - 09/06/2020 at 5:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2020 at 6:24pm
Hou Yingchao chops everything on the bh and it's forced by design, so he is more predictable. In addition with his short pips he could finish off many points with a bh all forehand/wrist rip of high/short balls - like that girl in the other thread - and he doesn't so he seems incomplete, too specialized; but he sure is the most flamboyant in the niche style he committed forever, nobody can compete with him there. 
Satoshi Aida can bh loop like Timo and on top of that can decide to chop a deadly slice in a moment's notice and mess with the opponent's positioning footwork and mindset, forcing across an adjustment that is time costly and reactive. From a tactical standpoint there is so much to dig there, the possibilities to take control of the point are increasing exponentially. But it take guts to go for it all the way when not many people  have brought the style to the top yet.
The complexity of the question is mind boggling but if we could identify the ideal percentages of inverted chops in such a game and strategize from that, an entirely sustainable style could popup.





Edited by stiltt - 09/06/2020 at 6:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2020 at 7:27pm
Tbh I think there's a lot less stability in the BH inverted chop in terms of controlling hard topspins... I feel like the choppers should stick with pips and learn how to punch with the pips ala Ito Mima haha...that was what I faced some months ago and it was devastating! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2020 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Tbh I think there's a lot less stability in the BH inverted chop in terms of controlling hard topspins... I feel like the choppers should stick with pips and learn how to punch with the pips ala Ito Mima haha...that was what I faced some months ago and it was devastating! 
but then they leave behind the devastating spin off of a bh opening and they don't want to leave that behind so they try to chop it with inverted anyway and they do fine sometimes....and they think they might be able to control it...there is a road nobody explored fully there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 3:46pm
Interesting player.  He's Japanese but the country that displayed next to his name was SWE.  Is he a Japanese player that plays in Sweden? What's his world ranking?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Interesting player.  He's Japanese but the country that displayed next to his name was SWE.  Is he a Japanese player that plays in Sweden? What's his world ranking?

yes, he plays (ed) for a Swedish club. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alexuganski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 10:03pm
Is twiddling a thing of the past? A fast twiddler could pull off BH opening topspins and smashes with smooth rubber and then twiddle back to LP for defense, chops, change of pace, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Tbh I think there's a lot less stability in the BH inverted chop in terms of controlling hard topspins... I feel like the choppers should stick with pips and learn how to punch with the pips ala Ito Mima haha...that was what I faced some months ago and it was devastating! 
but then they leave behind the devastating spin off of a bh opening and they don't want to leave that behind so they try to chop it with inverted anyway and they do fine sometimes....and they think they might be able to control it...there is a road nobody explored fully there.

There's another disadvantage with going with inverted chopping which is the ease of service return for pips players due to the pips being relatively insensitive to spin. 

There's definitely lots of cons to being a double inverted chopper imo...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2020 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Tbh I think there's a lot less stability in the BH inverted chop in terms of controlling hard topspins... I feel like the choppers should stick with pips and learn how to punch with the pips ala Ito Mima haha...that was what I faced some months ago and it was devastating! 
BTW I tried such a style - chop block + long pips punches - really worked well for me.

Unfortunately the only rubber that allowed it to me pretty well - was Meteor 8512 - not the most expensive one, but the punches were really stable - even managed to counterhit topspins with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2020 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Tbh I think there's a lot less stability in the BH inverted chop in terms of controlling hard topspins... I feel like the choppers should stick with pips and learn how to punch with the pips ala Ito Mima haha...that was what I faced some months ago and it was devastating! 
but then they leave behind the devastating spin off of a bh opening and they don't want to leave that behind so they try to chop it with inverted anyway and they do fine sometimes....and they think they might be able to control it...there is a road nobody explored fully there.

There's another disadvantage with going with inverted chopping which is the ease of service return for pips players due to the pips being relatively insensitive to spin. 

There's definitely lots of cons to being a double inverted chopper imo...
 
yes, but the reward in discovering hidden pluses that will overwhelmingly justify the effort could be appealing. The problem is starting early while having a high level coach who knows tactics ready to support the endeavor in the long term. It's almost impossible unless a rich family goes for it, succeeds and creates a cohort of followers to install the style as dominant.
It is clear to me if that player can do everything other double inverted can do plus the chop thing, they will dominate; but it's all theory...


Edited by stiltt - 09/10/2020 at 8:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longrange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2020 at 4:09pm
I thought this video might contribute to the discussion. This kind of chops are extremely hard to deal with since the ball literally stops its translational motion after the bounce. And then it's hard to attack and even hard to push it back on table if it drops below the net height.

But all in all wouldn't Aida's style be just called allround? It somewhat resembles how competitive people play in bottom leagues: they might not have good attack but you can be sure in quality of underspin in their chops and pushes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2020 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

I thought this video might contribute to the discussion. This kind of chops are extremely hard to deal with since the ball literally stops its translational motion after the bounce. And then it's hard to attack and even hard to push it back on table if it drops below the net height.

...

But all in all wouldn't Aida's style be just called allround? It somewhat resembles how competitive people play in bottom leagues: they might not have good attack but you can be sure in quality of underspin in their chops and pushes.
Wow!
Simon Gauzy, Hugo Calderano do that sometimes but you point at an extreme version with side spin and that is the killer because the variation in the amount of side spin is the hardest to read apparently.
Thanks for that video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopsquatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2020 at 1:25am
back in 2015 the ooak forum had an interview with Takashima Norio, the double inverted chopper from the 70's. At the end of the interview he stated that if he were playing today, he'd use double inverted and play a more all-round style, especially with using an attacker's style of serve & serve receive.

The chopper in the video, Aida Satoshi, plays almost exactly like whatNorio described in that interview. Even more interestingly, Aida actually uses one of Takashima's Kokutaku blades! 

I do not know if Aida was trained by Takashima or drew inspiration from him, but I thought that was pretty interesting.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longrange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2020 at 8:02am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Wow!
Simon Gauzy, Hugo Calderano do that sometimes but you point at an extreme version with side spin and that is the killer because the variation in the amount of side spin is the hardest to read apparently.
Thanks for that video.

Glad, you liked it. I just have to stress that it's pure and utter effect of the backspin. Just the follow-through makes it look different (ok, there might be some mild sidespin as well but that's not the main problem for the attacker). Like here pure backspin forces Zhang Jike to make an error because the ball suddenly stops in the air.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2020 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Wow!
Simon Gauzy, Hugo Calderano do that sometimes but you point at an extreme version with side spin and that is the killer because the variation in the amount of side spin is the hardest to read apparently.
Thanks for that video.

Glad, you liked it. I just have to stress that it's pure and utter effect of the backspin. Just the follow-through makes it look different (ok, there might be some mild sidespin as well but that's not the main problem for the attacker). Like here pure backspin forces Zhang Jike to make an error because the ball suddenly stops in the air.
...
look at the point starting at 30 seconds: the yellow shirt misses the ball entirely and watch where the ball goes after hitting the floor: that's quite the side spin isn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longrange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2020 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

look at the point starting at 30 seconds: the yellow shirt misses the ball entirely and watch where the ball goes after hitting the floor: that's quite the side spin isn't it?

Yes and no. There is sidespin, but that's not why the yellow shirt makes the error and that's the whole point of the video ((:
It's not that the sidespin forces him to change his stroke in the last moment or the ball bounces sideways -- the guy doesn't jerk the hand and the lateral position of the racket is correctly behind the ball. But look at his swing, it's a "classical european topspin against chop" in which the racket moves in the vertical plane, but it's no good since the ball never reaches that plane of the racket motion, the ball simply stops moving forward.
If you look further, the last guy has to hit right after the bounce and much more in front of the body, then at contact the ball is still moving forward and the plane of the stroke is tilted -- both facilitate better bite by the rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2020 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

look at the point starting at 30 seconds: the yellow shirt misses the ball entirely and watch where the ball goes after hitting the floor: that's quite the side spin isn't it?

Yes and no. There is sidespin, but that's not why the yellow shirt makes the error and that's the whole point of the video ((:
It's not that the sidespin forces him to change his stroke in the last moment or the ball bounces sideways -- the guy doesn't jerk the hand and the lateral position of the racket is correctly behind the ball. But look at his swing, it's a "classical european topspin against chop" in which the racket moves in the vertical plane, but it's no good since the ball never reaches that plane of the racket motion, the ball simply stops moving forward.
If you look further, the last guy has to hit right after the bounce and much more in front of the body, then at contact the ball is still moving forward and the plane of the stroke is tilted -- both facilitate better bite by the rubber.

Guy's trying to brute force brush loop it, with that quality of backspin you just can't do it unless you're Zhang Jike haha.... Much easier to borrow the backspin by opening up the racket angle slightly and close in towards the followthrough... 
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