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2020 China national championship Oct 01-10

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    Posted: 10/11/2020 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The way I interpret what is happening is that Ma Long seems to have lost something on his cross footwork so he is developing tools to reduce his need to execute a cross as much as possible.  But moving the ball around in the backhand court doesn't work against Fan as Fan is really aggressive down the line  so Ma Long needs another strategy when the match is close.

It's probably the knee injury and surgery, once you have an injury nothing is the same anymore....

He seems to be increasing the spin quality of his loops to avoid opponents being able to counter them (I suspect he's actually gonna break 7000rpm soon just like Xu Xin). I've seen the bounces on his loops getting increasingly lower and everyone is having much more difficulty dealing with them.... It's quite an adjustment to someone who has grown up on speed heavy powerloops.


AFAIK ,MA long went surgery before 2019 wttc and  won  the tittle, I think is the same plot" I will pretend my game is on downfall so opponents will be  offguard" .Remember when people said before 2019 wttc that ma long was burnt


Edited by mykonos96 - 10/11/2020 at 10:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The way I interpret what is happening is that Ma Long seems to have lost something on his cross footwork so he is developing tools to reduce his need to execute a cross as much as possible.  But moving the ball around in the backhand court doesn't work against Fan as Fan is really aggressive down the line  so Ma Long needs another strategy when the match is close.

It's probably the knee injury and surgery, once you have an injury nothing is the same anymore....

He seems to be increasing the spin quality of his loops to avoid opponents being able to counter them (I suspect he's actually gonna break 7000rpm soon just like Xu Xin). I've seen the bounces on his loops getting increasingly lower and everyone is having much more difficulty dealing with them.... It's quite an adjustment to someone who has grown up on speed heavy powerloops.


Edited by blahness - 10/11/2020 at 5:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

.he no longer has the short game and BH weakness he used to have...so those tactics which exploited these weaknesses wouldn't have worked...
Disagree.
Malong s BH becoming worse and worse.
His chopblock is because of weakness it's not.the aim.
Good.trick with showing push and flick  at last moment, but nothing more and he used that since 2008.
Previous tactics of counterattack in bh after fast long serve did not work well  (he used that against Fan in last world finals) even he tried but without success in stressful moments.
Last points is exactly what I mean. BH is weak for that level and previously it was better just because he moved faster.




Hmm I kinda agree with the poorer movement compared to his 2019 WTTC form, but I think he actually has stronger quality shots now (speed/spin) which was giving even Fan Zhendong lots of issues in blocking.

But still it's way, way better than when he played Wang Hao in the 2009, 2011 and 2013 WTTC when his BH was an outright weakness...


Agree it's better than it used to be. The problem is that it's not good enough. Watch how many times people push out to his BH and punish his opening.

I think his issue is that his openings are almost exclusively diagonal which are predictable even though he does generate some incredible spin on them, I haven't seen him open confidently down the line with quality....unlike the new gen who all can do it regularly....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

'He seems to be already FZD's kryptonite.... who knows he might pull a ZJK and quickly overtake FZD as this rate of improvement...' - blahness


we shall see, ....... about to confirm if its true. Big smile

FZD leading 3-1

I'm gonna have to re-watch the match.... Missed it! Maybe FZD finally stopped trying to go BH to BH with LJK and exploit LJK's poor movement on the FH side...

Yep FZD got smart and directed all his heavy attacks to LJK's FH even when he had to make a lot more mistakes than usual... He also calmly did a lot of soft blocks on the BH (rather than going full on power like in past  matches), which apparently LJK really hates lol...Guess FZD did learn some tactics from Ma Long after all LOL

Liang BH could be more powerful but fan BH has more quality better recovery that allows him to move the opponent

I have watched quite a few matches between them, Fan Zhendong is not favoured in the BH-BH diagonal at all... So he can't really bully LJK in BH-BH unlike when he plays against other players...

Fzd and ma was tien 7 all in the 7th game and the last 4 points were BH rips to win
FZD's BH is better than Ma Long so he can bully Ma Long's BH... But he can't do that against LJK coz LJK has an even better BH than FZD.... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 2:09pm
The way I interpret what is happening is that Ma Long seems to have lost something on his cross footwork so he is developing tools to reduce his need to execute a cross as much as possible.  But moving the ball around in the backhand court doesn't work against Fan as Fan is really aggressive down the line  so Ma Long needs another strategy when the match is close.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

'He seems to be already FZD's kryptonite.... who knows he might pull a ZJK and quickly overtake FZD as this rate of improvement...' - blahness


we shall see, ....... about to confirm if its true. Big smile

FZD leading 3-1

I'm gonna have to re-watch the match.... Missed it! Maybe FZD finally stopped trying to go BH to BH with LJK and exploit LJK's poor movement on the FH side...

Yep FZD got smart and directed all his heavy attacks to LJK's FH even when he had to make a lot more mistakes than usual... He also calmly did a lot of soft blocks on the BH (rather than going full on power like in past  matches), which apparently LJK really hates lol...Guess FZD did learn some tactics from Ma Long after all LOL

Liang BH could be more powerful but fan BH has more quality better recovery that allows him to move the opponent

I have watched quite a few matches between them, Fan Zhendong is not favoured in the BH-BH diagonal at all... So he can't really bully LJK in BH-BH unlike when he plays against other players...

Fzd and ma was tien 7 all in the 7th game and the last 4 points were BH rips to win
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 11:55am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

.he no longer has the short game and BH weakness he used to have...so those tactics which exploited these weaknesses wouldn't have worked...
Disagree.
Malong s BH becoming worse and worse.
His chopblock is because of weakness it's not.the aim.
Good.trick with showing push and flick  at last moment, but nothing more and he used that since 2008.
Previous tactics of counterattack in bh after fast long serve did not work well  (he used that against Fan in last world finals) even he tried but without success in stressful moments.
Last points is exactly what I mean. BH is weak for that level and previously it was better just because he moved faster.




Hmm I kinda agree with the poorer movement compared to his 2019 WTTC form, but I think he actually has stronger quality shots now (speed/spin) which was giving even Fan Zhendong lots of issues in blocking.

But still it's way, way better than when he played Wang Hao in the 2009, 2011 and 2013 WTTC when his BH was an outright weakness...


Agree it's better than it used to be. The problem is that it's not good enough. Watch how many times people push out to his BH and punish his opening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 11:22am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

or FZD is so good he can just stand there and manage, watching other people self destruct. He went through that on his way to the top and now it's his turn to let people dance for him. He is the new boss for good at only 23yo. 2020-2030 is his, he has a decade ahead of him starting now at the highest level. Knowing his prime is still ahead is scary.
It's an evolution :) 

Initially he was over aggressive and played insanely close to table - he was trying to reach Olympus.
That time FZD struggled with big 3 of that time MaLong, XuXin and JJike.
I heard comments of liu guoliang of a game between FZD and XuXin of that time - he told about that weekness - yes - you limit your opponent with that playstyle and if he is not ready - you can win, but if you are ready to such kind of game - you will win and XuXin did it effortlessly.
Exactly the same situation with Harimoto - totally the same steps.

After that FZD became more stable he moved to more powerful than speedy/tempoish game and he outplayed all the big 3 couple of times - but mostly he lost to MaLong.
Also saw comment of game from LiuGuoliang when he commented the time when FZD easily outplayed XuXin - he mentioned that facts.
Why Harimoto yet not changed to that state? - because he is not yet so powerfull - and his technique of forehand is not so good like top-chinese have. 
Also he has lack in movement and he plays girlish style of game - his BH is fast but not powerful - he uses t05fx because of this. Look on his opponents - when he bh flicks - the ball often times go to net - there is no enough energy in it.
But he evolving little by little and may be finally will trap to this situation. 

And now final result - FZD got ready to MaLong tricks (even though on peek still Ma would win - today he is not so fast/powerfull like he used to be competing Ma Lin Wang Hao, Wan Liquin as he was younger flexier) he studied game, he prepared mentally (even though all we know who was training him and how he can struggle (I am about Wan Hao))

It's enough to win those guys who are playing the style he knows.

But what about his dominance in future 10 years?

I really doubt in it.
Harimoto can win him just in case when he is on killing streak, will such kind of stability save FZD? 
Do not think so, to win Harimoto steadily - he should switch back to second - more powerfull game.

What about LinYunJu? 
Yes -it is rising nightmare for all of them.
Somebody can tell about him as about assasin because he rose once when nobody expected.
But I disagree - he yet have too many zones of growing - for example just a bit more muscles and he will be able to out power FZD.
He is fast like Harimoto, but the quality of shots is much better.
Experience  - he is getting it little by little and already have experience of winning against huge guys.

FZD is hard working and may be a good concurent to him, but he is so much slower :( his movement is so much shorter.

Who else?
If wang chuqin could  deal with his emotions - he could be next number 1.
He is lefty, he is fast, he is powerful but not mentaly stable.
lin gaoyuan has not enough power and he is small bones guy - there  will not be much more that he has now - or he will become next Liang Jingkun- guy of one tournament.

You may say - but Waldner was guy of one tournament :) 
Ok - but it was long ago - rules changed pretty drastically.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 9:49am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

or FZD is so good he can just stand there and manage, watching other people self destruct. He went through that on his way to the top and now it's his turn to let people dance for him. He is the new boss for good at only 23yo. 2020-2030 is his, he has a decade ahead of him starting now at the highest level. Knowing his prime is still ahead is scary.

I really like how you describe the mindset of a blocker haha... Let other people dance for you LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 6:40am
or FZD is so good he can just stand there and manage, watching other people self destruct. He went through that on his way to the top and now it's his turn to let people dance for him. He is the new boss for good at only 23yo. 2020-2030 is his, he has a decade ahead of him starting now at the highest level. Knowing his prime is still ahead is scary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 6:29am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

FZD played really good in the semi and final. I thought LJK could beat him, but FZD found a way to play passively and let LJK make his own mistakes. 

Today's FZD is world No. 1. 

Can't believe I'm saying this, but FZD shown the world that passive play is here to stay lol... Sounds like an oxymoron hahaha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 6:02am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

.he no longer has the short game and BH weakness he used to have...so those tactics which exploited these weaknesses wouldn't have worked...
Disagree.
Malong s BH becoming worse and worse.
His chopblock is because of weakness it's not.the aim.
Good.trick with showing push and flick  at last moment, but nothing more and he used that since 2008.
Previous tactics of counterattack in bh after fast long serve did not work well  (he used that against Fan in last world finals) even he tried but without success in stressful moments.
Last points is exactly what I mean. BH is weak for that level and previously it was better just because he moved faster.




Hmm I kinda agree with the poorer movement compared to his 2019 WTTC form, but I think he actually has stronger quality shots now (speed/spin) which was giving even Fan Zhendong lots of issues in blocking.

But still it's way, way better than when he played Wang Hao in the 2009, 2011 and 2013 WTTC when his BH was an outright weakness...


Edited by blahness - 10/11/2020 at 6:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2020 at 1:58am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

.he no longer has the short game and BH weakness he used to have...so those tactics which exploited these weaknesses wouldn't have worked...
Disagree.
Malong s BH becoming worse and worse.
His chopblock is because of weakness it's not.the aim.
Good.trick with showing push and flick  at last moment, but nothing more and he used that since 2008.
Previous tactics of counterattack in bh after fast long serve did not work well  (he used that against Fan in last world finals) even he tried but without success in stressful moments.
Last points is exactly what I mean. BH is weak for that level and previously it was better just because he moved faster.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

FZD roars and assumes fully his leader of the pack, alpha male position. "NO MORE MESSING WITH ME NOW!"

Did he use tactics evolved from Wang Hao to keep Ma Long in check? any obvious parallel there?

No it's a different set of tactics...

Tbh even prime Wang Hao would struggle hard against the current Ma Long....he no longer has the short game and BH weakness he used to have...so those tactics which exploited these weaknesses wouldn't have worked...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 7:51pm
FZD played really good in the semi and final. I thought LJK could beat him, but FZD found a way to play passively and let LJK make his own mistakes. 

Today's FZD is world No. 1. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 7:40pm
FZD roars and assumes fully his leader of the pack, alpha male position. "NO MORE MESSING WITH ME NOW!"

Did he use tactics evolved from Wang Hao to keep Ma Long in check? any obvious parallel there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 5:48pm
Was interesting how FZD insisted on serving no sidespin to Ma Long.... It was all variations of heavy underspin and no spin...whereas he was serving reverse pendulum from the middle to the short FH exclusively against LJK.  I think he exploited the FH weakness of LJK to force him to move and play a different game, and he didn't want Ma Long to be able to use the sidespin in strange ways in the receive.  He didn't serve a single long serve to Ma Long too...

He also did a lot more blocking and countering than he usually does, insisting on covering the table as well as he can. The BH down the line was also really on point, got so many direct points with that. It's a much better mix than in the past when he would be attacking hard every single ball. 

I think FZD really learnt how to "win ugly" so to speak lol... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

'He seems to be already FZD's kryptonite.... who knows he might pull a ZJK and quickly overtake FZD as this rate of improvement...' - blahness


we shall see, ....... about to confirm if its true. Big smile

FZD leading 3-1

I'm gonna have to re-watch the match.... Missed it! Maybe FZD finally stopped trying to go BH to BH with LJK and exploit LJK's poor movement on the FH side...

Yep FZD got smart and directed all his heavy attacks to LJK's FH even when he had to make a lot more mistakes than usual... He also calmly did a lot of soft blocks on the BH (rather than going full on power like in past  matches), which apparently LJK really hates lol...Guess FZD did learn some tactics from Ma Long after all LOL

Liang BH could be more powerful but fan BH has more quality better recovery that allows him to move the opponent

I have watched quite a few matches between them, Fan Zhendong is not favoured in the BH-BH diagonal at all... So he can't really bully LJK in BH-BH unlike when he plays against other players...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 4:50pm
Ma Long should pass the torch? Ma Long won doubles, was runner-up in the teams, and runner-up in singles in a tournament which makes the world championships look like your average local ymca basketball pickup league.  Ma Long should play as long as he wants.  If not, then everyone on the planet should just quit playing...     

One should also take into consideration Ma Long had to play in the team event while FZD rested.  That might have had a slight impact in the finals. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 2:39pm
ma long played better than I had anticipated 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by chroot chroot wrote:

Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

ML has not beaten FZD for a while. This time he is so close.


It's time for ML to pass the torch.Smile He would have been retired if no pandemic.

This trio will be the hardest  compeition since between fan ,wang and  ma  any can win against   each other. Next WTTC will be very hard to win
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chroot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 11:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chroot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 11:05am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

ML has not beaten FZD for a while. This time he is so close.


It's time for ML to pass the torch.Smile He would have been retired if no pandemic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 10:59am
ML has not beaten FZD for a while. This time he is so close.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chroot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 10:57am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

'He seems to be already FZD's kryptonite.... who knows he might pull a ZJK and quickly overtake FZD as this rate of improvement...' - blahness


we shall see, ....... about to confirm if its true. Big smile

FZD leading 3-1

I'm gonna have to re-watch the match.... Missed it! Maybe FZD finally stopped trying to go BH to BH with LJK and exploit LJK's poor movement on the FH side...

Yep FZD got smart and directed all his heavy attacks to LJK's FH even when he had to make a lot more mistakes than usual... He also calmly did a lot of soft blocks on the BH (rather than going full on power like in past  matches), which apparently LJK really hates lol...Guess FZD did learn some tactics from Ma Long after all LOL


FZD has learned how to adjust to the game quickly. That's the difference between him and ML before. Now, he's standing by ML.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 10:49am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

'He seems to be already FZD's kryptonite.... who knows he might pull a ZJK and quickly overtake FZD as this rate of improvement...' - blahness


we shall see, ....... about to confirm if its true. Big smile

FZD leading 3-1

I'm gonna have to re-watch the match.... Missed it! Maybe FZD finally stopped trying to go BH to BH with LJK and exploit LJK's poor movement on the FH side...

Yep FZD got smart and directed all his heavy attacks to LJK's FH even when he had to make a lot more mistakes than usual... He also calmly did a lot of soft blocks on the BH (rather than going full on power like in past  matches), which apparently LJK really hates lol...Guess FZD did learn some tactics from Ma Long after all LOL

Liang BH could be more powerful but fan BH has more quality better recovery that allows him to move the opponent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 10:22am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Nobody watched the final?!

FZD was incredible there.... he was playing some 4d chess with Ma Long lol... 

Very technical matchup with minimal rallies, but with huge amounts of strategizing....

Where did you watch it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 10:05am
Nobody watched the final?!

FZD was incredible there.... he was playing some 4d chess with Ma Long lol... 

Very technical matchup with minimal rallies, but with huge amounts of strategizing....


Edited by blahness - 10/10/2020 at 10:06am
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 5:39am
Lin Gaoyuan vs Liang Jingkun is the craziest match I've seen for a while. Definitely one for the adrenaline junkies....
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Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 2:02am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

'He seems to be already FZD's kryptonite.... who knows he might pull a ZJK and quickly overtake FZD as this rate of improvement...' - blahness


we shall see, ....... about to confirm if its true. Big smile

FZD leading 3-1

I'm gonna have to re-watch the match.... Missed it! Maybe FZD finally stopped trying to go BH to BH with LJK and exploit LJK's poor movement on the FH side...

Yep FZD got smart and directed all his heavy attacks to LJK's FH even when he had to make a lot more mistakes than usual... He also calmly did a lot of soft blocks on the BH (rather than going full on power like in past  matches), which apparently LJK really hates lol...Guess FZD did learn some tactics from Ma Long after all LOL


Edited by blahness - 10/10/2020 at 2:03am
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
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