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Upper body rotation in BH, yes or no

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    Posted: 09/26/2020 at 6:29am
Do you use it, and why?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2020 at 7:01am
My thoughts are, pros of rotation is the ease of generating power, cons is that it's slow....

Some pros rotate, others don't, and some take a mixed approach (only rotate when they have an opportunity ball)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2020 at 8:40am
When you need power and have time, especially away from the table, it makes sense.

Closer to the table, moat players just use the leg and back muscles/core for quick rallying.  Harimoto and Ma Long hardly twist for example.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2020 at 9:39am
the king was kreanga.

I see now more elbow out as a fulcrum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2020 at 1:17pm
My opinion - your body and legs should do the very same movement on any BH topspins.
What about upper body - there are actually 2 different movements: 
- incline movement which you control with non playing hand (it can be done in forward - back direction and in left to right direction or mixed) and
- rotation movement around your back spine axis - which actually encreases on power.

First one is used just to trap to the ball in needed vertical position (basically it is controlling your timings) so you always do that on any BH hit.

Second one - the closer to table - the less involved it OR when you finish the point and the ball is in your control and you have enough time - you can involve it also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2020 at 2:40pm
Unless you're Kreanga trying to emulate Kreanga is a losing proposition.  Study Jorgen Persson  or Samsonov instead.  Just my two cents.  Relaxed stroke.  The key is you need to move to the ball.  You can reach for forehands and still hit a good shot.  But with backhabnds you want to hit from your optimal location or no matter what else you do, you will be erratic.  This idea is kind of complimentary to the previous comnent about keeping your stroke the same,  or maybe a slightly different way of describing it.  If you're trying to hit it from different locations (ball relative to body) you'll never succeed in that.

Edited by Baal - 09/27/2020 at 2:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2020 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Unless you're Kreanga trying to emulate Kreanga is a losing proposition.  Study Jorgen Persson  or Samsonov instead.  Just my two cents.  Relaxed stroke.  The key is you need to move to the ball.  You can reach for forehands and still hit a good shot.  But with backhabnds you want to hit from your optimal location or no matter what else you do, you will be erratic.  This idea is kind of complimentary to the previous comnent about keeping your stroke the same,  or maybe a slightly different way of describing it.  If you're trying to hit it from different locations (ball relative to body) you'll never succeed in that.
Yeah - agree - it's actually direct explanation of what I meant - when you have similar strokes - they are just more consistent and the more consistent they are - the more advantage they give you.

Finish when you are already almost won can be of any kind but to trap to that finish you should better have something more stable of a good quality. 
(controversially my coach told me from time to time: the hardest balls - are the simplest balls - meaning you can loose focus and just fail on any easy ball, so should respect your opponent and play each ball as consistently as possible)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2020 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Unless you're Kreanga trying to emulate Kreanga is a losing proposition.  Study Jorgen Persson  or Samsonov instead.  Just my two cents.  Relaxed stroke.  The key is you need to move to the ball.  You can reach for forehands and still hit a good shot.  But with backhabnds you want to hit from your optimal location or no matter what else you do, you will be erratic.  This idea is kind of complimentary to the previous comnent about keeping your stroke the same,  or maybe a slightly different way of describing it.  If you're trying to hit it from different locations (ball relative to body) you'll never succeed in that.

Haha I think it's too difficult to play like Kreanga, I'm not too sure how he kept his arms in their sockets after so many of those wild swings LOL

But there's also in between solutions. Ma Long actually rotates too, just a smaller degree (maybe about 30-40 degrees?), Harimoto, Jeong Young Sik and Timo don't rotate much (relies only on the hip hinge movement pretty much). Powerhouse LJK also has a small quick rotation when he does his trademark BH powerloops but he doesn't rotate much in normal play. There's also players who use small rotations all the time like FZD and ZJK and Kenta Matsudaira and Lee Sang Su....

I'm kinda bored during lockdown and am just trying to design my BH stroke lol...Tbh I don't rotate much at all too for all strokes currently (hip hinge method), it's consistent and fast but a bit lacking in the power tbh...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2020 at 7:26pm
sometimes. it helps get to the ball on time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2020 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

[

Haha I think it's too difficult to play like Kreanga, I'm not too sure how he kept his arms in their sockets after so many of those wild swings LOL

But there's also in between solutions. Ma Long actually rotates too, just a smaller degree (maybe about 30-40 degrees?), Harimoto, Jeong Young Sik and Timo don't rotate much (relies only on the hip hinge movement pretty much). Powerhouse LJK also has a small quick rotation when he does his trademark BH powerloops but he doesn't rotate much in normal play. There's also players who use small rotations all the time like FZD and ZJK and Kenta Matsudaira and Lee Sang Su....

I'm kinda bored during lockdown and am just trying to design my BH stroke lol...Tbh I don't rotate much at all too for all strokes currently (hip hinge method), it's consistent and fast but a bit lacking in the power tbh...


True.  But the average MyTT member is not quite like Ma Long!!!!  On the other hand, I have known some BH-dominant amateur players who are capable of ripping their backhands really hard and pretty consistently, so it's not like it can't be done.

But either way, my sense is that it matters the most what you do before contacting the ball, which means being in really optimal position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2020 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

When you need power and have time, especially away from the table, it makes sense.

Closer to the table, moat players just use the leg and back muscles/core for quick rallying.  Harimoto and Ma Long hardly twist for example.

This advice is spot on.
Watch this tutorial.. This guy knows a thing or two about BH loops.




Edited by notfound123 - 09/27/2020 at 9:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2020 at 1:07am
Yes, it's all about time. JPENholders tell us best about it and they do it always on a slow ball or far away from the table, watch Kim Taek Soo. 

Reading this thread I stumbled on that funny clip, watch it at 0.25 speed, it's really cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l526tV8mhGw

As a side note, Kreanga was more full arm facing the table (feet wise) unloading from a hip thrust while the legs action was more heavily pronounced with KTS.

My question is: ideally, while learning, should the hip jerk a.k.a the legs work be encouraged in any bh topspin, even for the slower ones? avoiding bad habits is the idea behind the question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2020 at 3:18am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

[

Haha I think it's too difficult to play like Kreanga, I'm not too sure how he kept his arms in their sockets after so many of those wild swings LOL

But there's also in between solutions. Ma Long actually rotates too, just a smaller degree (maybe about 30-40 degrees?), Harimoto, Jeong Young Sik and Timo don't rotate much (relies only on the hip hinge movement pretty much). Powerhouse LJK also has a small quick rotation when he does his trademark BH powerloops but he doesn't rotate much in normal play. There's also players who use small rotations all the time like FZD and ZJK and Kenta Matsudaira and Lee Sang Su....

I'm kinda bored during lockdown and am just trying to design my BH stroke lol...Tbh I don't rotate much at all too for all strokes currently (hip hinge method), it's consistent and fast but a bit lacking in the power tbh...


True.  But the average MyTT member is not quite like Ma Long!!!!  On the other hand, I have known some BH-dominant amateur players who are capable of ripping their backhands really hard and pretty consistently, so it's not like it can't be done.

But either way, my sense is that it matters the most what you do before contacting the ball, which means being in really optimal position.

Tbh the powerful BH rip probably doesn't win that many points, a lot more are decided on consistency and placement and speed.... 

But sometimes it's just fun to awe the opponent/audience with a dismissive BH rip just like Liang Jingkun so that you can walk away like a boss lol...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2020 at 10:27am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

[

Haha I think it's too difficult to play like Kreanga, I'm not too sure how he kept his arms in their sockets after so many of those wild swings LOL

But there's also in between solutions. Ma Long actually rotates too, just a smaller degree (maybe about 30-40 degrees?), Harimoto, Jeong Young Sik and Timo don't rotate much (relies only on the hip hinge movement pretty much). Powerhouse LJK also has a small quick rotation when he does his trademark BH powerloops but he doesn't rotate much in normal play. There's also players who use small rotations all the time like FZD and ZJK and Kenta Matsudaira and Lee Sang Su....

I'm kinda bored during lockdown and am just trying to design my BH stroke lol...Tbh I don't rotate much at all too for all strokes currently (hip hinge method), it's consistent and fast but a bit lacking in the power tbh...


True.  But the average MyTT member is not quite like Ma Long!!!!  On the other hand, I have known some BH-dominant amateur players who are capable of ripping their backhands really hard and pretty consistently, so it's not like it can't be done.

But either way, my sense is that it matters the most what you do before contacting the ball, which means being in really optimal position.

Tbh the powerful BH rip probably doesn't win that many points, a lot more are decided on consistency and placement and speed.... 

But sometimes it's just fun to awe the opponent/audience with a dismissive BH rip just like Liang Jingkun so that you can walk away like a boss lol...

Exactly, kreanga's backhand gets wildly overrated and glorified due to some highlight reel off the table counter loops, but considering all aspects of backhand play, he fell far short of many of the greatest backhands of all time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2020 at 11:03am
I tend to rotate a little from right to left. I usually rotate my hips and shoulder slightly from right to left, and when I contact the ball I snap my wrist.  My coach told me many years ago that you should hear your wrist cutting the air when you snap your wrist.  If you don't hear that then you don't have enough speed.  Try doing a BH swing without your racket and when it's very quiet in the room.  You should hear your wrist cutting the air.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2020 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

I tend to rotate a little from right to left. I usually rotate my hips and shoulder slightly from right to left, and when I contact the ball I snap my wrist.  My coach told me many years ago that you should hear your wrist cutting the air when you snap your wrist.  If you don't hear that then you don't have enough speed.  Try doing a BH swing without your racket and when it's very quiet in the room.  You should hear your wrist cutting the air.  

I can hear a much louder sound if I rotate haha... Even if it's a small rotation...

Am leaning towards the small rotation philosophy (maybe 30 deg or so) as a good compromise...


Edited by blahness - 09/28/2020 at 8:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/28/2020 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:


Exactly, kreanga's backhand gets wildly overrated and glorified due to some highlight reel off the table counter loops, but considering all aspects of backhand play, he fell far short of many of the greatest backhands of all time.

Completely agree, but sometimes you just wanna be in the highlight reel. Winning or losing is secondary to that...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2020 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

...
Exactly, kreanga's backhand gets wildly overrated and glorified due to some highlight reel off the table counter loops, but considering all aspects of backhand play, he fell far short of many of the greatest backhands of all time.
Kreanga reached the 1/2 finals of the world championships v. Joo Se Huyk and only lost because he was not trained v. choppers (unlike Kreanga who had Weixing in his team Austria).
Had he won that 1/2, he would have had very good chances to be world champion because he knew Schlager so well.

I am curious anyway, Kreanga "fell far short of many of the greatest backhands of all time" ???? what backhands are you referring to?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2020 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

...
Exactly, kreanga's backhand gets wildly overrated and glorified due to some highlight reel off the table counter loops, but considering all aspects of backhand play, he fell far short of many of the greatest backhands of all time.
Kreanga reached the 1/2 finals of the world championships v. Joo Se Huyk and only lost because he was not trained v. choppers (unlike Kreanga who had Weixing in his team Austria).
Had he won that 1/2, he would have had very good chances to be world champion because he knew Schlager so well.

I am curious anyway, Kreanga "fell far short of many of the greatest backhands of all time" ???? what backhands are you referring to?


His primary backhand threat was one dimensional, and his strength lied in points that don't happen a majority of the time during a match. Looking at the full range of shots particularly in serve receive and at the table play, in current and recent times there are guys like Harimoto, FZD, LJK, ZJK, Ovtcharov, Ma Long, Wang Hao...historically, Karakasevic, Mazunov, Rosskopf of course gets a mention, Persson, Waldner... I think all of those guys had significantly better backhands OVERALL.

As mentioned earlier, if you are focusing less on the highlight reel points and look more at the full match video I think this becomes clear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2020 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

sometimes it's just fun to awe the opponent/audience with a dismissive BH rip just like Liang Jingkun so that you can walk away like a boss lol...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2020 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

...
Exactly, kreanga's backhand gets wildly overrated and glorified due to some highlight reel off the table counter loops, but considering all aspects of backhand play, he fell far short of many of the greatest backhands of all time.
Kreanga reached the 1/2 finals of the world championships v. Joo Se Huyk and only lost because he was not trained v. choppers (unlike Kreanga who had Weixing in his team Austria).
Had he won that 1/2, he would have had very good chances to be world champion because he knew Schlager so well.

I am curious anyway, Kreanga "fell far short of many of the greatest backhands of all time" ???? what backhands are you referring to?


His primary backhand threat was one dimensional, and his strength lied in points that don't happen a majority of the time during a match. Looking at the full range of shots particularly in serve receive and at the table play, in current and recent times there are guys like Harimoto, FZD, LJK, ZJK, Ovtcharov, Ma Long, Wang Hao...historically, Karakasevic, Mazunov, Rosskopf of course gets a mention, Persson, Waldner... I think all of those guys had significantly better backhands OVERALL.

As mentioned earlier, if you are focusing less on the highlight reel points and look more at the full match video I think this becomes clear

Its why I said watch Persson instead.  Most versatile BH ever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2020 at 10:01pm
I have been practicing doing a full circle for more power, but I do get dizzy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2020 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

sometimes it's just fun to awe the opponent/audience with a dismissive BH rip just like Liang Jingkun so that you can walk away like a boss lol...



Lmao LOL this is exactly what I meant!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/29/2020 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

I have been practicing doing a full circle for more power, but I do get dizzy

Lol what magnitude of rotation do you do
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