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Does Wang Liqin use wrist for forehand loop?

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    Posted: 10/06/2020 at 8:11pm
Hello this is my first postLOL!
I noticed in a lot of videos his wrist always looks angled back even on follow through? Is he one of the few players that doesn't use wrist for loop?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ppw7NT9g1w



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2020 at 8:39pm
Imo the wrist is not that powerful, it's the forearm pronation which is the real stroke amplifier, similar to other sports - check the blade angle changes at the followthrough which hints at the mechanism...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2020 at 12:46am
Even more, it can be used for slowing down the speed, if the placement was not ideal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2020 at 8:27pm
he is a type of player with very big swings and lesser flexing on fh snaps. His fh is so strong that i do not think he needs to use more wrist movement. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote juanma4080 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2020 at 9:04am
yes actually he keeps in every single shot his wrist without moving it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2020 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by TheCandyMan88 TheCandyMan88 wrote:

Hello this is my first postLOL!
I noticed in a lot of videos his wrist always looks angled back even on follow through? Is he one of the few players that doesn't use wrist for loop?ube.com/watch?v=_ppw7NT9g1w
Freeze the video during the slow motion as he is about to start his forward swing. At this point, his forearm and wrist are straight, so it seems as if he's not using wrist. But use the Youtube feature of hitting a period so you can move forward one frame at a time. (Use a comma to go back one frame at a time.) As his arm moves forward, shortly before contact, his wrist falls back, and then snaps through the ball along with the forearm. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheCandyMan88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2020 at 3:01pm

Freeze the video during the slow motion as he is about to start his forward swing. At this point, his forearm and wrist are straight, so it seems as if he's not using wrist. But use the Youtube feature of hitting a period so you can move forward one frame at a time. (Use a comma to go back one frame at a time.) As his arm moves forward, shortly before contact, his wrist falls back, and then snaps through the ball along with the forearm. 
-Larry Hodges
[/QUOTE]

Are you sure? It looks like it might be so but really hard to tell from this video and angle. There's not enough fps. Anybody have another clip because it doesn't seem to be any obvious follow through of wrist. Noticed Samsonov another tall guy does the same with wrist not moving or no follow through with flick of wrist.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheCandyMan88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2020 at 3:28pm
Also https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NQFxJRgXJDo
1:05 go to playback settings slow mo it and see samsomov not use wrist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2020 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by TheCandyMan88 TheCandyMan88 wrote:


Freeze the video during the slow motion as he is about to start his forward swing. At this point, his forearm and wrist are straight, so it seems as if he's not using wrist. But use the Youtube feature of hitting a period so you can move forward one frame at a time. (Use a comma to go back one frame at a time.) As his arm moves forward, shortly before contact, his wrist falls back, and then snaps through the ball along with the forearm. 
-Larry Hodges

Are you sure? It looks like it might be so but really hard to tell from this video and angle. There's not enough fps. Anybody have another clip because it doesn't seem to be any obvious follow through of wrist. Noticed Samsonov another tall guy does the same with wrist not moving or no follow through with flick of wrist.
[/QUOTE]
It's tricky to see because the racket accelerates so much as it approaches the ball, and the video speed isn't nearly fast enough to make the wrist motion clear. But see the four consecutive frames below (taken about 18 seconds in). Open all four up on a computer screen, if you can, and page through the first three quickly and compare. In the first one, wrist is straight. In the second one, you can just see that the wrist is falling very slightly behind, but it's subtle at this point. In the third one, see how the forearm is now a blur as it accelerates into the ball, while the racket and wrist are starting to lag behind, and so aren't as blurred. In this one you can see the wrist falling behind the forearm. (Key thing is he doesn't bring the wrist back so much as forearm accelerates while wrist lags behind.) In the fourth one, it's all a blur as the racket is now moving too fast for the video - and this is where the forearm and wrist are accelerating into the ball extremely fast, and where you could see the most wrist motion, if the video were faster and sharper. 
http://www.larrytt.com/images/wang-wrist1.jpg
http://www.larrytt.com/images/wang-wrist2.jpg
http://www.larrytt.com/images/wang-wrist3.jpg
http://www.larrytt.com/images/wang-wrist4.jpg

The angle and low frame speed (relative to his explosive acceleration before contact) make it hard to pick up the wrist motion on this or other Youtube videos - it's all too fast and last-second, and the wrist movement is only a few inches at the last second, compared to the longer (in time and distance) movement of the forearm. 

Here's one where you can see the wrist motion slightly better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIImvHq-nz0&t=179s&ab_channel=AzlanOthman
Here are two frames take at 1:40:
http://www.larrytt.com/images/wang2-wrist1.jpg
http://www.larrytt.com/images/wang2-wrist2.jpg
In the second one, you can see how much more the racket has moved than the forearm, since it is the wrist flicking into the ball at the last second. 

Coaching the subtle wrist motion in looping and serving are two things that are very difficult to see on video, and are much easier to demonstrate in person. In general, top players use more wrist against a slower incoming ball, less against a fast incoming ball. (Samsonov notoriously uses less wrist than others as he is more control, less power.)
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 10/08/2020 at 5:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2020 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by TheCandyMan88 TheCandyMan88 wrote:

hard to say from that angle what about 
Still tricky to see, other than the length of the blur of the racket. Also, there's going to be more wrist when he's looping hard than when looping steady. In the original video on this thread, he's not really ripping the ball, so less wrist. If he rips it, there's going to be a lot more - but that would just be a blur on video. In person it's much easier to show this type of thing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheCandyMan88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2020 at 5:17pm
I have long arms like them and know its tricky to use wrist when you have so much reach but when I get tired I use less body and just flick my wrist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2020 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by TheCandyMan88 TheCandyMan88 wrote:

I have long arms like them and know its tricky to use wrist when you have so much reach but when I get tired I use less body and just flick my wrist.

Unless one literally locks their wrist (leading to a rather stiff and unnatural swing), it's natural to have at least some wrist on all loops. The forearm (probably the most important part) naturally throws the wrist into the shot. The only question is when to go for more wrist, and how (up/down, forward/back). Usually top players use more wrist against slower incoming balls, when they are going for rips or super-spinny loops. Against a faster incoming ball, such as counterlooping, they'll use less wrist in most cases. 
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Thank youBig smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2020 at 12:53am
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by TheCandyMan88 TheCandyMan88 wrote:

I have long arms like them and know its tricky to use wrist when you have so much reach but when I get tired I use less body and just flick my wrist.

Unless one literally locks their wrist (leading to a rather stiff and unnatural swing), it's natural to have at least some wrist on all loops. The forearm (probably the most important part) naturally throws the wrist into the shot. The only question is when to go for more wrist, and how (up/down, forward/back). Usually top players use more wrist against slower incoming balls, when they are going for rips or super-spinny loops. Against a faster incoming ball, such as counterlooping, they'll use less wrist in most cases. 
-Larry Hodges
It can be up-down movement, forward-back movement, pronation and supination or mix, without any of them it seems unnatural.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2020 at 1:12am
It's my pet peeve here, but when people talk about wrist movements they are not specific enough. Please use precise terminology, there are names for all the movements.





Edited by blahness - 10/09/2020 at 1:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheCandyMan88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2020 at 2:06am
ive been training a little lately with Ulnar deviation and flexion. But I feel like I'm forcing it a little. Is this something that comes natural? I noticed I did this unconsciously slightly in the past without realizing it unlike now where I am trying to consciouly bring it back more. Pulled a few muscles on my left side near ribs and my right pec. But it was also me really pushing myself alot physically after not playing for 10 years only my 3rd time since. How many people use this technique or have these problems?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2020 at 4:29am
Originally posted by TheCandyMan88 TheCandyMan88 wrote:

ive been training a little lately with Ulnar deviation and flexion. But I feel like I'm forcing it a little. Is this something that comes natural? I noticed I did this unconsciously slightly in the past without realizing it unlike now where I am trying to consciouly bring it back more. Pulled a few muscles on my left side near ribs and my right pec. But it was also me really pushing myself alot physically after not playing for 10 years only my 3rd time since. How many people use this technique or have these problems?

In my experience the wrist is not very powerful, I don't use a lot of ulnar/radial deviation or even flexion/extension, just a tiny bit. The major power source is the pronation/supination which I've learnt to use heavily, and I've also noticed the modern CNT relying heavily on it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2020 at 4:35am
Originally posted by TheCandyMan88 TheCandyMan88 wrote:

ive been training a little lately with Ulnar deviation and flexion. But I feel like I'm forcing it a little. Is this something that comes natural? I noticed I did this unconsciously slightly in the past without realizing it unlike now where I am trying to consciouly bring it back more. Pulled a few muscles on my left side near ribs and my right pec. But it was also me really pushing myself alot physically after not playing for 10 years only my 3rd time since. How many people use this technique or have these problems?

See this. In fact if you have this mechanism, just turn it over and you'll already have good FH and BH arm strokes lol, and then you just need to add in the weight transfer and hip rotation. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2020 at 5:10pm
You will get a million different answers depending on whom you ask about wrist movements in looping.  My first coach was insistent that the wrist was the key to looping and working with them I improved rapidly.  When I went to China to play, my coach there would freak out if I used my wrist looping and to be honest my training there was a complete waste of time.  At the club I currently coach and train at, the ex-Chinese province players also have differing opinions on the wrist.  The absolute best player (played on famous teams in China and has wins over the top players there) says no wrist.  Another coach at the club who recently lost 3-2 to Bojan Tokic insists on the wrist.  His coach is Chen Zhibin who also says use the wrist.  Richard Prause the famous German coach says use the wrist. 

I would say there is no correct answer.  Do what works for you.  Which way can you hit the ball harder? What way can you spin the ball more? What way are you the most consistent? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2020 at 1:30pm
the weight of the paddle should do it for you. @ candyman



the answer is he does sometimes

Edited by bars - 10/13/2020 at 1:31pm
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