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2020 Men's World Cup, Nov. 13-15 China

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    Posted: 11/16/2020 at 12:07pm
[QUOTE=DonnOlsen]Hi,

 How do you judge  blade composition of a blade you never had in your hands?.
Who is your source?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2020 at 10:06am
A video interview from 2015 really should not be used to make claims about FZD's equipment in 2020 ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2020 at 8:07am
Hi,

On the equipment side of the World Cups, two things.

1)  Viscaria: Chen Meng used Viscaria

According to one source, Fan uses a Viscaria too:

Specifically, Fan Zhendong uses a blade (refers to the wood part of the table tennis paddle) from the Japanese table tennis company Butterfly, despite being sponsored by Swedish company Stiga.

Judging from its material composition (the wood and carbon layers), his blade appears to be a Viscaria model (from Butterfly), but disguised with the handle of the Stiga (his sponsor) blade he claims (0:48) to be using (Infinity VPS V model).


2)  Rubber performance:  It was not apparent that there was a rubber advantage with any of the players, as there had been in the past.  

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2020 at 6:11am
Fantastic match to be honest by them both . 11-9 in the 7th tight as result. The timing of Fan's backhand down the line in the context of the point was always interesting. ML really was a way a way from it at times and off balance to say the least until he started to find a bit more. It was precise to say the least from Fan. Great for ML to stay in the match and ramp things up. Little bit of loss of thought maybe when he was up to take it into the 7th and final end. Big lead 10-2 and then 10-7 i think. Chance to put Fan under the cosh a bit more. Very very fine margins mind.

It seems Fan peppered (pace +- spin as well) the ML backhand middle and then wide then middle then waited for the pivot forehand from ML and when it opened the space ...make the winner. outstanding. Adding a kicker sidespin off BH loop (Ala almost Waldner) is the icing on the cake. Almsot like a chess move. I did wonder when/if ML would hold that backhand side and start to turn the wide if he could.

Also Fan's backhand flick is outstanding from his forehand middle. The winner at 9-10 in the 7th was perfect. Thumbs Up

Fades etc have been around for years nothing new on that one but these guys are taking it to a level which is much much higher and outstanding. A wonder to watch for me.










Edited by ghostzen - 11/16/2020 at 6:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2020 at 6:01am
Fan Zhendong collecting world cup titles like Pokemon lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

to define and teach easily the "bh fade" (nice name), I would simply recommend block/counter on the (right for righties) side of the ball with the head up and the handle tag pointing perpendicular at the table. Is that clear enough? can we compress further?

To be honest what I found is that the preparatory position should be exactly the same as a diagonal BH with normal sidespin (ie your bat position should be exactly the same, if it's different it's so easy for your opponent to read it beforehand), it's just at contact you move your elbow to the right so that you can brush the right side of the ball. For me that means the bat is still horizontal (ie the tip is pointing towards the left) just like a normal BH.

I'm actually also trying to get the hang of the BH fade (pure sidespin) as a service receive option too, it's like a whole new stroke family. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 7:30pm
to define and teach easily the "bh fade" (nice name), I would simply recommend block/counter on the (right for righties) side of the ball with the head up and the handle tag pointing perpendicular at the table. Is that clear enough? can we compress further?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

China should prepare WCQ for the Olympics more seriously.

The ML in this match was in pretty good form, but he struggled through matches...
That's my concern, the flamboyant Ma Long is not there all the time, he pops sometimes. The adjustment to high toss serve argument is strong but I can't help watching Harimoto's unforced errors from 3-1 on that he was not making before; that's not necessarily related to any adjustment, I think the pressure was just too high and something gave up, a bit like Ma Long v. Wang Hao back in the days. Ma Long cannot beat a Harimoto playing like in game 2, 3 and 4, I am not sure anybody can.
As Andy Murray said losing the 2012 Wimbledon final the year before he finally won it: "I am getting closer."

IT wasn't just the high toss serve.  He started covering the down the line shot better and started looping with more arc to make it harder for Harimoto to time the ball.  It was a hard performance, and yes, Harimoto is on the ascendancy, but Ma Long's form is extremely high.  For me, the main fix he needs to make is to be able to redirect the ball down the line - the one time he tried it, Fan didn't even touch the ball and the redirect wasn't even that good.

He doesn't have the BH fade topspin down the line unlike Harimoto and Fan Zhendong... The reason why Harimoto and Fan Zhendong's down the line BHs are so deadly is because the fading sidespin increases the angle (and thus distance needed to be covered) so much more compared to a normal BH down the line counter. 

I recently started training the BH fade (as well as fade topspin), and I already noticed how deadly it is to right handers, especially if you also have the normal BH sidespin which curves the other way. 

That much is obvious.  That doesn't mean he shouldn't put the ball there occasionally even with his regular backhand.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

China should prepare WCQ for the Olympics more seriously.

The ML in this match was in pretty good form, but he struggled through matches...
That's my concern, the flamboyant Ma Long is not there all the time, he pops sometimes. The adjustment to high toss serve argument is strong but I can't help watching Harimoto's unforced errors from 3-1 on that he was not making before; that's not necessarily related to any adjustment, I think the pressure was just too high and something gave up, a bit like Ma Long v. Wang Hao back in the days. Ma Long cannot beat a Harimoto playing like in game 2, 3 and 4, I am not sure anybody can.
As Andy Murray said losing the 2012 Wimbledon final the year before he finally won it: "I am getting closer."

IT wasn't just the high toss serve.  He started covering the down the line shot better and started looping with more arc to make it harder for Harimoto to time the ball.  It was a hard performance, and yes, Harimoto is on the ascendancy, but Ma Long's form is extremely high.  For me, the main fix he needs to make is to be able to redirect the ball down the line - the one time he tried it, Fan didn't even touch the ball and the redirect wasn't even that good.

He doesn't have the BH fade topspin down the line unlike Harimoto and Fan Zhendong... The reason why Harimoto and Fan Zhendong's down the line BHs are so deadly is because the fading sidespin increases the angle (and thus distance needed to be covered) so much more compared to a normal BH down the line counter. 

I recently started training the BH fade (as well as fade topspin), and I already noticed how deadly it is to right handers, especially if you also have the normal BH sidespin which curves the other way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 7:06pm
The revelation of the tournament is Harimoto - his overall counterlooping game went up a few notches and I would have loved to see him play Fan Zhendong.

I don't think Harimoto got the same advantages in serve return after the serve switch as he did off the regular pendulum.   That said, that could be memory bias.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

There's three types of people, those who credit someone for making good adjustments, and those who shit on those who can't react to those adjustments in time...and those who just blindly say someone is a choker.

Harimoto played a great match, and then Ma Long made an adjustment harimoto couldn't deal with in time. Ma Long I'm sure was probing all match to find a weak point he could exploit, and finally found the winning formula that harimoto couldn't deal with. Credit to Harimoto that he executed so well, and forced ML to the brink, and kept his level high throughout the match.

Funnily enough, most players [amateurs] in my experience can't even react to one adjustment, let alone several..made by one of the best players OAT in Ma long, whose execution and sense is unparalleled [as in his adjustments are far better and clinical].

I prefer to give credit to guys like ML who find a way to win time and time again, especially when its clear Harimoto's level didn't exactly drop, he simply was winning 40-45% of points against the ML of sets 5->7, rather than chucking completely unforced errors or breaking down tactically himself.

This. I have never seen a player take the ball as consistently early as Harimoto did vs Ma Long and I don't think any other player would have survived that onslaught the way it happened.  I don't think anyone plays as fast as Harimoto and if he can adapt to change ups in pace, it bodes well for Harimoto's future.

The biggest issue Ma Long needs to fix is that he never goes down the line on backhand to backhand exchanges.   It makes him too predictable. 
Agreed about Ma Long but also he never makes a very hard hit either backhand or forehand (i mean for his level..FZD, Harimoto, XX, etc hit some balls really hard but ML not..)

Dude what are you talking about, Ma Long has one of the highest spin levels as measured on the tour...and he definitely crushes the ball when needed.

The spinniest looper is XX ,I  read somewhere he gets over 7000rpm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 6:37pm
Hi,

I watched the match four times.  I think the notion of the decisiveness of the high toss serve is completely nuts.  

For one thing, Ma Long only serves half the time, so that halves the importance of the serve influence in the overall match.  Two, Harimoto had no difficulty with the high toss serve at all.

What I did observe were two things: 1)  Ma Long anticipated better in the last half of the match.  This improved his responsiveness considerably.  He, as champions do, understood better the tendencies of Harimoto to support extending the rallies and reducing the quick points lost.

2)  Most importantly, Ma Long moved from his 90% level to 100%.  With the heart of the greatest, he elevated to his top, a level still better than Harimoto.  At 90%, Ma Long loses to Harimoto.

This match serves as a tribute to Ma Long the legend, a tremendously success effort against an amazing player.  Only the rarest of athletes can do what Ma Long just did.

Also this match erects a monument to Harimoto's developmental environment, led by his father.  As in judging a tree by its fruit, Harimoto's progress is spectacular due to understandings of the sport of the highest level, implemented hour by hour, day by day, in the training hall.  True coaching brilliance is on display, to be witnessed by all.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Come on. Keep the girly fights in China. Don't export them.

ML, CM and LSW shouldn't have been invited in the first place had the ATTU not changed the rules for the Asian Cup 2020 and had the MWC/WWC 2020 been held in their original countries.
You mean the world Cup no longer invites the Champ?  Xu Xin not playing the Asian Cup in order to get ML more ranking points is different from ML not being automatically qualified into the World Cup.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/15/2020 at 7:03pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

There's three types of people, those who credit someone for making good adjustments, and those who shit on those who can't react to those adjustments in time...and those who just blindly say someone is a choker.

Harimoto played a great match, and then Ma Long made an adjustment harimoto couldn't deal with in time. Ma Long I'm sure was probing all match to find a weak point he could exploit, and finally found the winning formula that harimoto couldn't deal with. Credit to Harimoto that he executed so well, and forced ML to the brink, and kept his level high throughout the match.

Funnily enough, most players [amateurs] in my experience can't even react to one adjustment, let alone several..made by one of the best players OAT in Ma long, whose execution and sense is unparalleled [as in his adjustments are far better and clinical].

I prefer to give credit to guys like ML who find a way to win time and time again, especially when its clear Harimoto's level didn't exactly drop, he simply was winning 40-45% of points against the ML of sets 5->7, rather than chucking completely unforced errors or breaking down tactically himself.

This. I have never seen a player take the ball as consistently early as Harimoto did vs Ma Long and I don't think any other player would have survived that onslaught the way it happened.  I don't think anyone plays as fast as Harimoto and if he can adapt to change ups in pace, it bodes well for Harimoto's future.

The biggest issue Ma Long needs to fix is that he never goes down the line on backhand to backhand exchanges.   It makes him too predictable. 
Agreed about Ma Long but also he never makes a very hard hit either backhand or forehand (i mean for his level..FZD, Harimoto, XX, etc hit some balls really hard but ML not..)

Dude what are you talking about, Ma Long has one of the highest spin levels as measured on the tour...and he definitely crushes the ball when needed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 4:27pm
Honestly I was surprised Ma Long even got 3 sets....kudos to him being able to stay with FZD....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 1:11pm
just watched the full ML/HT match to get the flow of the turnaround that everyone had been talking about.  IMHO, it was more than the high toss serve, although that was coincidental to the turn around.  ML was too predictable before that enabling HT's high risk game. ML with the high toss serve and mixing in high pressure shots HT started to miss some backhands and I feel HT definitely choked on a few BH in the 7th.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 11:20am
Come on. Keep the girly fights in China. Don't export them.

ML, CM and LSW shouldn't have been invited in the first place had the ATTU not changed the rules for the Asian Cup 2020 and had the MWC/WWC 2020 been held in their original countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 11:04am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

China should prepare WCQ for the Olympics more seriously.

The ML in this match was in pretty good form, but he struggled through matches...
That's my concern, the flamboyant Ma Long is not there all the time, he pops sometimes. The adjustment to high toss serve argument is strong but I can't help watching Harimoto's unforced errors from 3-1 on that he was not making before; that's not necessarily related to any adjustment, I think the pressure was just too high and something gave up, a bit like Ma Long v. Wang Hao back in the days. Ma Long cannot beat a Harimoto playing like in game 2, 3 and 4, I am not sure anybody can.
As Andy Murray said losing the 2012 Wimbledon final the year before he finally won it: "I am getting closer."

IT wasn't just the high toss serve.  He started covering the down the line shot better and started looping with more arc to make it harder for Harimoto to time the ball.  It was a hard performance, and yes, Harimoto is on the ascendancy, but Ma Long's form is extremely high.  For me, the main fix he needs to make is to be able to redirect the ball down the line - the one time he tried it, Fan didn't even touch the ball and the redirect wasn't even that good.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 11:02am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

China should prepare WCQ for the Olympics more seriously.

The ML in this match was in pretty good form, but he struggled through matches...

Struggling through matches is good and natural.  If you don't, then you panic at the first sign of pressure.  In fact, ML showed mental maturity in winning this match and even with the final (I think being forced to use his timeout in the 6th game may have cost him a little).  Reminiscent of his comeback vs ZJK at German Open a few years back.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maeyang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 10:47am
it is not surprised that Fan won. Just like chen meng beat sun yingsha.during recent 2 years, China national men  team put most of their resourse to help Fan to improve his skills.just like China women national team put their efforts to help Chen Meng.Ma Long dont have real coach these 2 years.and Sun's coach cant go out with her .so he cant coach her when sun is playing is other countries or big tournaments. her resourse even cant compare with wang manyu.this year,she only stayed with her coach 2 months... so it is normal when FZD beat ML or CM beat SYS.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 10:45am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

China should prepare WCQ for the Olympics more seriously.

The ML in this match was in pretty good form, but he struggled through matches...
That's my concern, the flamboyant Ma Long is not there all the time, he pops sometimes. The adjustment to high toss serve argument is strong but I can't help watching Harimoto's unforced errors from 3-1 on that he was not making before; that's not necessarily related to any adjustment, I think the pressure was just too high and something gave up, a bit like Ma Long v. Wang Hao back in the days. Ma Long cannot beat a Harimoto playing like in game 2, 3 and 4, I am not sure anybody can.
As Andy Murray said losing the 2012 Wimbledon final the year before he finally won it: "I am getting closer."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 9:49am
China should prepare WCQ for the Olympics more seriously.

The ML in this match was in pretty good form, but he struggled through matches...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 9:15am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Fan Zhendong won like I expected haha...
and he won it easily - no, more like a coin toss by the score

Yep.  IMO, if someone wins in the last set and the opponent scores over 6 points, it is hard to see it as anything other than a toss up unless there was a large disparity in points won/lost (and there wasn't).
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 9:02am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Fan Zhendong won like I expected haha...
and he won it easily - no, more like a coin toss by the score
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 8:47am
Men's Singles - Finals - Match 1
Weihai Nanhai Olympic Sport Centre
Sun 15, 19:45
Table 1
WIN
3
11
11
11
7
7
11
4
11
8
3
6
11
11
9
3

I saw no comment about this and the knock-outs page still did not record the result. I was surprised they could play that late.

FZD is claiming his throne and clinches it a title after the other.

If he wins in Tokyo and the WTTC 2021 if any (the competition might disappear, please no), will he beat ZJK record to achieve a grand slam the fastest starting with the 1st title?



Edited by stiltt - 11/15/2020 at 8:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malin87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 8:44am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

There's three types of people, those who credit someone for making good adjustments, and those who shit on those who can't react to those adjustments in time...and those who just blindly say someone is a choker.

Harimoto played a great match, and then Ma Long made an adjustment harimoto couldn't deal with in time. Ma Long I'm sure was probing all match to find a weak point he could exploit, and finally found the winning formula that harimoto couldn't deal with. Credit to Harimoto that he executed so well, and forced ML to the brink, and kept his level high throughout the match.

Funnily enough, most players [amateurs] in my experience can't even react to one adjustment, let alone several..made by one of the best players OAT in Ma long, whose execution and sense is unparalleled [as in his adjustments are far better and clinical].

I prefer to give credit to guys like ML who find a way to win time and time again, especially when its clear Harimoto's level didn't exactly drop, he simply was winning 40-45% of points against the ML of sets 5->7, rather than chucking completely unforced errors or breaking down tactically himself.

This. I have never seen a player take the ball as consistently early as Harimoto did vs Ma Long and I don't think any other player would have survived that onslaught the way it happened.  I don't think anyone plays as fast as Harimoto and if he can adapt to change ups in pace, it bodes well for Harimoto's future.

The biggest issue Ma Long needs to fix is that he never goes down the line on backhand to backhand exchanges.   It makes him too predictable. 
Agreed about Ma Long but also he never makes a very hard hit either backhand or forehand (i mean for his level..FZD, Harimoto, XX, etc hit some balls really hard but ML not..)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 8:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 8:34am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

It's 9:20PM in Wehai and the final was scheduled Sun 15, 19:45. What happened?

Two long matches.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 8:22am
It's 9:20PM in Wehai and the final was scheduled Sun 15, 19:45. What happened?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 7:30am
Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

There's three types of people, those who credit someone for making good adjustments, and those who shit on those who can't react to those adjustments in time...and those who just blindly say someone is a choker.

Harimoto played a great match, and then Ma Long made an adjustment harimoto couldn't deal with in time. Ma Long I'm sure was probing all match to find a weak point he could exploit, and finally found the winning formula that harimoto couldn't deal with. Credit to Harimoto that he executed so well, and forced ML to the brink, and kept his level high throughout the match.

Funnily enough, most players [amateurs] in my experience can't even react to one adjustment, let alone several..made by one of the best players OAT in Ma long, whose execution and sense is unparalleled [as in his adjustments are far better and clinical].

I prefer to give credit to guys like ML who find a way to win time and time again, especially when its clear Harimoto's level didn't exactly drop, he simply was winning 40-45% of points against the ML of sets 5->7, rather than chucking completely unforced errors or breaking down tactically himself.

This. I have never seen a player take the ball as consistently early as Harimoto did vs Ma Long and I don't think any other player would have survived that onslaught the way it happened.  I don't think anyone plays as fast as Harimoto and if he can adapt to change ups in pace, it bodes well for Harimoto's future.

The biggest issue Ma Long needs to fix is that he never goes down the line on backhand to backhand exchanges.   It makes him too predictable. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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