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Another Interesting Match with Video

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mjamja View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10/14/2020 at 11:48pm
In the "Interesting Match" thread it was mentioned that without seeing video no one could be sure my impression of what was happening in the match was really correct.

So I videoed a match with another player with whom I have about the same impression of our matches.  That impression is that he is a much better player than I am and somehow I am just winning games or matches by shear luck.  He is rated ~1975 to my ~1830.  But he has only been back playing for 2 months and then only once per week with me.  So I would not expect him to be playing up to his normal standard.  I think we have been about 50/50 against each other in the games we have played since he started back.  

I am going to do a little analysis of each game to go with the video:
1. Listing Early, mid, and final score
2. Counting 4 categories of points lost by each player
     1. Unforced error
     2. Opponent winner
     3. Reasonable error *
     4. Error due to net or edge
3.  Identifying how many unforced errors were service errors or serve return errors.

* - An miss when the opponents shot is really not good enough to be considered an outright winner but the shot is strong enough that missing it does not seem to be an unforced error.

I got the 1st and 2nd games uploaded and analyzed.  I will try to get games 3 and 4 up tomorrow.  Score was 3-1.  The winner was ....
Stayed tuned for the answer.

Game 1  Mark 8 , Andrew 11



Loss type.         Mark           Andrew
Unforced              8                   4
Opp. winner.        2.                   2
Reasonable          1.                  1
Net/Edge.             0.                  1

Serve.                    3.                  0
Return.                  2.                  1



Game 2  Mark 11, Andrew 4




Loss type.       Mark.           Andrew
Unforced              2                  6
Opp. winner.        1                  3
Reasonable          0                  0
Net/Edge.             1                  2

Serve.                    0                  2
Return.                  2.                  1


Mark



Edited by mjamja - 10/14/2020 at 11:59pm
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Vince64 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 12:08am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

In the "Interesting Match" thread it was mentioned that without seeing video no one could be sure my impression of what was happening in the match was really correct.

So I videoed a match with another player with whom I have about the same impression of our matches.  That impression is that he is a much better player than I am and somehow I am just winning games or matches by shear luck.  He is rated ~1975 to my ~1830.  But he has only been back playing for 2 months and then only once per week with me.  So I would not expect him to be playing up to his normal standard.  I think we have been about 50/50 against each other in the games we have played since he started back.  

I am going to do a little analysis of each game to go with the video:
1. Listing Early, mid, and final score
2. Counting 4 categories of points lost by each player
     1. Unforced error
     2. Opponent winner
     3. Reasonable error *
     4. Error due to net or edge
3.  Identifying how many unforced errors were service errors or serve return errors.

* - An miss when the opponents shot is really not good enough to be considered an outright winner but the shot is strong enough that missing it does not seem to be an unforced error.

I got the 1st and 2nd games uploaded and analyzed.  I will try to get games 3 and 4 up tomorrow.  Score was 3-1.  The winner was ....
Stayed tuned for the answer.

Game 1  Mark 8 , Andrew 11



Loss type.         Mark           Andrew
Unforced              8                   4
Opp. winner.        2.                   2
Reasonable          1.                  1
Net/Edge.             0.                  1

Serve.                    3.                  0
Return.                  2.                  1



Game 2  Mark 11, Andrew 4




Loss type.       Mark.           Andrew
Unforced              2                  6
Opp. winner.        1                  3
Reasonable          0                  0
Net/Edge.             1                  2

Serve.                    0                  2
Return.                  2.                  1


Mark


I already know who won both matches so no suspense for me. Not that it matters in the big picture but AM"s  rating is actually 1921. I also question your 1600 playing partner who practices at a 2200 level. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 12:21am
Maybe the 1975 was when I got here last year.  Was he just over 2000 at one point?  I am not currently a USATT member so I do not think I can access the ratings site.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 12:23am
If you didn't outright miss 3 services game 1 would be a lot closer. Game 2 was where you got him. I see you've developed quite a nice hook serve too LOL tbh you should have abused it a lot more (I abuse mine to the limit to get my max amount of free points)...very nice countering game especially on the BH (are you using short pips?!)

He should have attacked and went to your wide FH a lot more (it's my go to strategy against people who don't move well), but that's really on him and not on you. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 12:33am
It seems that your receives are quite standard (push + flick) and honest, you haven't really delved deep into the dark side which is where all the fun is LOL....like the Waldner sideswipes, sidespin flips (with side under variations), strawberry receives, flicks with no spin/underspin, not to mention fake movements with the body to conceal direction.... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 12:34am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Maybe the 1975 was when I got here last year.  Was he just over 2000 at one point?  I am not currently a USATT member so I do not think I can access the ratings site.

Mark
His high rating was 1967. He's not current member either but I was able to look up both your ratings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 12:53pm
In analyzing games 3 and 4 I discovered I have developed a new extremely effective strategy without even being aware of it.

Whenever there is confusion over the score I simply take one point from my opponent, add it to my correct score, and convincingly announce the "adjusted score" as the current score.  I did it in game 3 and 4.

So game 3 actual, Mark 10 Andrew 10.  Thought it was 11-9.

Game 4 actual, Mark 14 Andrew 9.  At first thought it was 11-5, but had a feeling I had messed up score so asked to continue play from a new score.  But I got the new score wrong (in Andrew's favour) so we played into deuce even after I had won in the true score.

Moral of story -  call out score loudly before each point especially if you are playing against old senile mountain men.

Video of game 3 and 4 being up loaded slowly by phone so come back to see game 3 and 4.

PS. We played a 2nd match that I did not tape.  Until evidence surfaces to prove otherwise I won 3-1 (11-0,11-0, 16-18,11-0).

Mark - Who is always trying to find new ways to win.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 1:22pm
Game 3 Mark 10 Andrew 10 (we messed up the scoring)



Type of Error.        Mark          Andrew
Unforced                   7.                  7
Reasonable               1.                  1
Winner.                       2.                  2
Net/Edge.                  0.                   0

Game 4 Mark 14 Andrew 9 (Yes we messed up again)



No analysis.  I am so confused by the scoring errors I can not figure anything else out.

Mark


Edited by mjamja - 10/15/2020 at 1:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 2:36pm
Really impressive Mark.  Your backhand really stood up against long serving.  Short game looked great. 

Remember Angie told us to let the ball drop a little lower on the serve :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Really impressive Mark.  Your backhand really stood up against long serving.  Short game looked great. 

Remember Angie told us to let the ball drop a little lower on the serve :)


But I stand up so nice, straight, and tall (mother's posture teachings) when I play that if I let the ball drop any lower I can not reach it with the paddle.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 4:50pm
putting jokes aside for a minute.  I just went and looked at some Richard De Witt videos.  I was really struck by how similar his game and matches looked to mine.  The very upright stance which caused strokes on both sides to be hit with the elbow way higher than the hand at ball contact.  The punchy and slightly slapping nature of the Bh stroke.  The fact that most of his Bh errors were these low fliers that were slightly rising as they exited the table is similar to what seems to happen a lot to me.  Against strong Fh loops to his Fh he used a lot of soft passive blocks down the line like I do (but hate that I do not counter attack).  Just like in my matches he lost a lot of points where opponents hit clean outright winners off his softer blocks, but also won a lot of points where they missed similar shots.  Like me he wins a lot of points with placement and angles rather than power and is especially good at hitting a Bh down the line punch when opponent steps around the Fh.

Of course he executes these similarities at a much higher level than I do and can execute them against much higher quality balls than I do.  Although no one would use him as a footwork example he is making a lot of small positioning moves just after hitting that put him in really good position to play the next shot without moving unless the opponent does something exceptional with their placement.  This is something I really lack.  From having played him once, I do know that he has this incredible ability to disguise spin changes in his Bh shots.  Although they may look the same one can be topspin and the next dead to even slight under.  I think this is one of the reasons opponents make so many "unforced" errors against him.  He plays balls to his elbow much better than I do.  He is not doing it with typical footwork.  I need to learn more of what he is doing and get away from my terrible chicken wing block response to balls hit at my elbow.  I also noticed he used an incredibly short backswing on his Fh and never seemed to try to loop (even against underspin).  This might be something I should move towards.  Lastly his serve is really good.  Simple looking but very low with outstanding placement and almost invisible spin variation.

Early on I knew I was not going to be WLQ or Timo so I chose Liu Shi Wen and later Mima Ito as models to whom I could aspire.  Now I am starting to think RDW is player to emulate.

Mark - Who will one day be known as R2D2W2 if he is lucky.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 5:44pm
Or WD40 for your smooth strokes.

Edited by mts388 - 10/15/2020 at 11:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 6:02pm
I see myself in the guys you are playing and all I can say is there is a million ways to lose in TT.

I see this guy in the video has a really good forehand but his backhand is full of errors. I'm sure he gained his rating points hitting strong backhands but struggles when a player has a strong backhand like yourself Mark.

I always look like crap against things I have not practiced and in general I seek out to play different types of players, tho with covid I've isolated myself to just a few players. I am entirely aware I'm improving against those people and really just those people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

I see myself in the guys you are playing and all I can say is there is a million ways to lose in TT.

I see this guy in the video has a really good forehand but his backhand is full of errors. I'm sure he gained his rating points hitting strong backhands but struggles when a player has a strong backhand like yourself Mark.

I always look like crap against things I have not practiced and in general I seek out to play different types of players, tho with covid I've isolated myself to just a few players. I am entirely aware I'm improving against those people and really just those people.

It's really strategy...he's attacking mark's BH and getting jammed all the time, the few times he attacked mark's deep FH he got him well out of position (but still lost quite a few points as he didn't handle the spin properly)... Mark on the other hand was placing his balls much better than his opponent and testing his footwork all the time. Imo he should have done the wide FH deep serve a lot more, he did it once and I don't think Mark handled it that well tbh... 

In terms of mechanics, the guy's BH stroke structure is way too slow as his stroke needs a huge windup...this causes him to lose position at the table and get moved around. I see many ppl have his kind of BH too and they suffer from the same issues... his quick counters (without body usage) don't produce enough topspin so he's inconsistent with them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

I see myself in the guys you are playing and all I can say is there is a million ways to lose in TT.

I see this guy in the video has a really good forehand but his backhand is full of errors. I'm sure he gained his rating points hitting strong backhands but struggles when a player has a strong backhand like yourself Mark.

I always look like crap against things I have not practiced and in general I seek out to play different types of players, tho with covid I've isolated myself to just a few players. I am entirely aware I'm improving against those people and really just those people.

It's really strategy...he's attacking mark's BH and getting jammed all the time, the few times he attacked mark's deep FH he got him well out of position (but still lost quite a few points as he didn't handle the spin properly)... Mark on the other hand was placing his balls much better than his opponent and testing his footwork all the time. Imo he should have done the wide FH deep serve a lot more, he did it once and I don't think Mark handled it that well tbh... 

In terms of mechanics, the guy's BH stroke structure is way too slow as his stroke needs a huge windup...this causes him to lose position at the table and get moved around. I see many ppl have his kind of BH too and they suffer from the same issues... his quick counters (without body usage) don't produce enough topspin so he's inconsistent with them. 
Similarly, I wondered why the guy kept serving long to Mark's backhand when Mark was making him pay for it every time, and forcing back-to-back exchanges when that seemed like it was Mark's advantage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 9:31pm
I watched all the games, but really focused on the 3rd one.

It was a very good match and I enjoyed it.

Both players can hit good shots from either side.  Mark's BH is definitely steadier and more confident. Andrew's FH is stronger, particualarly when the ball is in his power zone.  Mark's FH is probably more versatile.  I'm going to put a few observations below about Mark's game.  I'll leave Andrew out of it...

Strong Points:
-Mark moves the ball around really well and has solid strokes and blocks.  Some of his pushes were strong too, and when he pushed strong, he won or took the initiative most of the time.  

-He has a variety of serves and isn't predictable.

-He hits his backhand down the line particularly well and to good effect.

Problems:
A few things jumped out at me that caused him trouble in this match.
  
-He almost always steps or hops forward before his opponent contacts the serve.  He still manages to handle long serves to his backhand rather well, but struggled when they went to his elbow or wide forehand.  Sometimes he got jammed on "kinda long and not super fast" serves - see 14th point of Game 3.  Everyone gets jammed on fast long serves occasionally, but stepping in early makes him more vulnerable.  Note that this may be something he doesn't do against everyone.

-He occasionally dropped his blade and relaxed after making a really good shot.  When Andrew returned these balls Mark often had to make rushed blocks, "weaker than they should be" counters, or "slappy" smash attempts.  I do the same thing WAY too much.  The 10th point (actual scoring) of 3rd game is an example.

-He missed more serves than ideal.

- His down the line forehand isn't as clean as his BH version.  It isn't bad, but it isn't as strong as most of the rest of his game.  (His step-around forehand from the middle is quite good though.)

bes


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 10:48pm
Bes,

I saw the stepping in before serve contact and was really surprised.  I have been working on getting up on my toes before the serve contact.  At first I was starting back from the table more and stepping in with weight shifting to my toes at about the time the toss started.  That way I was stationary and on my toes at contact.  I was very inconsistent doing that so in this match I was trying to start at the serve return distance and just raise up on my toes without stepping in.

From the video I was 0 for 2..  I stepped in and I did not get up on my toes.  No wonder I had so much trouble with the short serve to my wide Fh.

As to relaxing after a good shot.  I know when I have hit a winner past the 1300 players I usually played during the early part of CoVid shutdown.  However, these pesky 1900 players keep hitting back my winners.

The Fh down the line was my strongest shot when I was just countering.  As I have changed my wrist position to improve my looping (neutral instead of laid back) I am struggling with the down the line Fh.

Thanks for the very perceptive comments to bes, blahness, and others.

Mark - Sincerely appreciative of the help.


Edited by mjamja - 10/16/2020 at 12:08am
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