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Best Affordable Two-Wing Looper Set-up?

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blahness View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2020 at 7:33am
To me the true test is if you can push a heavy sidetopspin serve with control, if you can't the setup is too fast. 

Edited by blahness - 11/08/2020 at 7:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2020 at 8:54am
Originally posted by Ingo_Ger Ingo_Ger wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

I started to have TT trainings 5 years ago at the age of 32. 
Was total newbie.
In 2 months read articles and saw really experienced guy with TB Alc and t05 and t64.
Wanted such a setup really much and it lasted for 3 more months during which I tried to find according to forums advices something slower, but didn't like it cause thought it was a matter of equipment that my topspin was not powerful enough.
Looking at my hesitation, my coach told me to take that TB Alc and let's start trainings.
I took)))
In 2 years my level grown to something like 2200 in US.
Btw I changed 1 tb Alc to 2 one because broke first))
After that viscaria light and after that trapped to ifl Alc and xiom feel zx1.
So current situation is that I need slower setup just because I can use it in my play style better, not because I had to start with it.
Of course, there are always exceptions to a rule but please, don't use this single example to use it as a rule for all players out there.
Hi Ingo_Ger,
The main idea is following:
1) For amateurs without trainings - YOU CAN USE ANY BLADE YOU LIKE - because you play for fun - so buy whatever blade you like and play;
1) For amateurs with trainings - YOU CAN USE ANY BLADE YOU LIKE - because you have to train hard to achieve something and it does not matter which blade you use to train cause coach will anyway take a look at most important: legs and movement - so buy whatever blade you like and train;

Common is: YOU CAN USE ANY BLADE YOU LIKE


Edited by Valiantsin - 11/08/2020 at 11:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2020 at 10:05am
Buying a blade can be tricky. You need one that most importantly feels good in the hand. Then you need one that fits your style. I wish I could recommend a good cheap blade but I think going to a shop and holding them is probably the most important. For me the Timo Boll line of blades handle is amazing and I'm going with one of the lighter and slower setups: the ZLF. The ALC is like a hammer in comparison to me. These are not cheap. Blades last a long time so perhaps money shouldn't be a consideration.

If it were me and no access to a shop for testing I would order a ton of cheap Chinese 'clone' blades at $10-$20 each until I found one I liked. Yinhe has copied all of the popular ones. I'd also have a file and sand paper ready for some modifications until it feels good.

For rubber - get some Chinese rubber on the forehand. $5 to $20.

Backhand one could go with Chinese again or go with some of the cheaper options from Germany/Japan. NextLevel mentioned fast arc G1. Could go with lots of options. Blue fire line from Donic or my old fav baracuda. $5 to $35 again.

I think after spending say $200 on blades from China and $40-$60 on rubber, one could find a decent setup.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2020 at 10:45am
Originally posted by Ingo_Ger Ingo_Ger wrote:



The "touch" which you're referring Mark, is the ability to do the shots even slightly different. With fast material, 90% of the shots which are not hit correctly will end up in the net or most of the time off the table. With someone who is developing, this is really not helping because the player really has no clue what is wrong. Someone with experience and proper foundation knows what is happening and can adapt. To get there, you need a certain amount of feeling and experience what happens when you do this different. The "touch" carries over indeed to carbon. If you've learned the basics, you will immediately know how to adapt your strokes on faster material and carbon blades. But how do you want to do it, when your strokes are not perfect and most importantly consistent. Most intermediate players even don't have consistent strokes. Every strok is different and most of the intermediate players even don't recognize what they did different and just wonder, why 50% of their stroke are failures or too slow.


Ok but the context of the thread is a 1600 player which is someone who has a basic fundamental understanding of how to play the game. I disagree with what you are saying but it is a little irrelevant here. Generally kids who are going to be good turn out good, and kids who are not will not, and the equipment factors in very little. I have seen many kids transition to carbon blades before 1600 and have gone on to be anywhere from 2000 to 2600. I have seen players stick to control set ups and never learn the proper strokes which you imply they help to teach. If someone is ever going to be advanced (2000+) then I think they should have no problem controlling a blade like Viscaria by the time they are 1600 and won't be hitting every ball out as you suggest, i've seen it happen like this for ages


Edited by idk - 11/08/2020 at 10:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2020 at 11:26am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

To me the true test is if you can push a heavy sidetopspin serve with control, if you can't the setup is too fast. 

Or the rubber is too grippy/reactive for you to control?



Edited by icontek - 11/08/2020 at 11:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ejprinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2020 at 12:48pm
@wilkinru was saying "Yinhe has copied all of the popular ones" and "I would order a ton of cheap Chinese 'clone' blades at $10-$20 each until I found one I liked."
This is what I did, and with respect to the cloning I think this is only partially correct. As yogi_bear observed in his reviews, Yinhe has used experiments and continuous improvement on the blades, they are not just copying, they are reverse-engineering and improving, and (maybe because the market is so big) they can just look what sticks. 
On the Yinhe blade section at princett.com you see that they came up with 10+ different Cypress(similar to Hinoki?)/Carbon blades (not just the T - except the T11+ -  series, there are some more hidden in the other ones), and they have 5-ply and 7-ply blades with various top woods (Limba, Koto, Walnut, ...), vacuum bake or not, external and innerforce carbon, various carbon weaves, etc.
I got 6 of the Yinhe blades (5-ply, 7-ply, Cypress carbon & ALC, innerforce/Koto/Volcaryl, innerforce/Koto/ALC, & 2 Sanwei (Fextra 7 ply, HC Speed Light Hinoki/ALC), and I did learn about their behaviors.



Edited by ejprinz - 11/08/2020 at 2:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2020 at 7:27am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

To me the true test is if you can push a heavy sidetopspin serve with control, if you can't the setup is too fast. 

Or the rubber is too grippy/reactive for you to control?

Could be both rubber or the blade. I basically can push any serve low and spinny with my current setup which I'm quite happy with. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/09/2020 at 11:01am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

To me the true test is if you can push a heavy sidetopspin serve with control, if you can't the setup is too fast. 

Or the rubber is too grippy/reactive for you to control?

Could be both rubber or the blade. I basically can push any serve low and spinny with my current setup which I'm quite happy with. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pitigoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2020 at 12:45pm
This is not on the topic anymore. As a very-slowly (hopefully) developing player,
Vega Europe on Stiga Allround NCT is more fun than Rising Dragon on Yinhe T11+.
Right hand: Stiga Allround NCT (74g) /Rasant Grip max/Talon OX red (total 135g)
Left hand: Stiga Allround WRB (71g)/Vega Europe max/Innova Ultra Light max (total 153g)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 2:44pm
Thanks so much. I just picked up a Viscaria and will let me friend try it out. 
For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 4:00pm
I can only shake my head in disbelief with lots of these recommendations. Viscaria will severely slow down the growth of a lower intermediate player. It's just too fast and lacks the feedback necessary to eliminate making mistakes on your own.

Middle of the road in speed stiffness and hardness blade with medium hardness rubbers is the correct recommendation for a looper of that level, if he wants to improve fast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

I can only shake my head in disbelief with lots of these recommendations. Viscaria will severely slow down the growth of a lower intermediate player. It's just too fast and lacks the feedback necessary to eliminate making mistakes on your own.

Middle of the road in speed stiffness and hardness blade with medium hardness rubbers is the correct recommendation for a looper of that level, if he wants to improve fast.

That is one valid opinion - the point of this thread is that there are others.  In fact, I avoided using fast blades on a consistent basis until very recently, and I am not entirely sold that it helped my growth.

The way I look at it, anything under 1500Hz is reasonably good.  And I have seen many players get better with stuff stiffer than that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote b3nhold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2020 at 2:27pm
That's really not that difficult. You can get a lot for that. It's basically a mid-tier setup. I'd recommend P500 from personal use but the BT555 could be the ticket here as it has a limba outer for a bit more dwell.
Rubber wise hurricane 3 works well, or for a more european feel, one of the early tensors like the joola energy if they still make it. For a hybrid feel, the haifu whale shark or whale ii are good if you don't mind they technically aren't on the ittf list (ittf had a dispute with haifu, the rubber was still judged OK on the test). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Veet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2020 at 1:30am
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

I can only shake my head in disbelief with lots of these recommendations. Viscaria will severely slow down the growth of a lower intermediate player. It's just too fast and lacks the feedback necessary to eliminate making mistakes on your own.

Middle of the road in speed stiffness and hardness blade with medium hardness rubbers is the correct recommendation for a looper of that level, if he wants to improve fast.

I concur with you on this 100% 

 .. Infact, the recommendations I had made were of alternatives to the likes of Viscaria and TBALC; but thats cause I have no idea of USATT ratings ..  I thought the requirement is for a intermediate to advance player .. 

However, if the requirement is for a beginner to advance-beginner, then Viscaria or the likes of it, is certainly not the way to go, even if you can well afford it .. 

I would recommend an all wood blade ... Loads and loads of options .. 

For rubbers, my personal view is that classic Chinese tacky rubbers are best to learn proper strokes ... DHS Neo 3 Hurricane is one option ..  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2020 at 12:42pm
Hi,

If the player in question is on a journey of development of considerable length and a potential steep upward arc, there is an important distinction in rubbers that, notwithstanding the easily-noted hybrids and cross-breeding, should be part of the conversation.  That distinction is between the traditional Chinese-style rubbers and the European/Japanese style rubbers.  

The playing characteristics between these two categories are sufficiently significant that a conscious decision should be made as to which of the two categories the player will be devoted to long term.  There are many technical and technique reasons for this decision to be made formally. 

Once this decision is made, rubbers within the selected category may be chosen for their initial use, with an intelligent perspective on future rubbers in the marketplace in that category that would graduate the capabilities of the equipment in concert with the graduated skills of the player.

Thanks.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Veet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2020 at 3:05am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

If the player in question is on a journey of development of considerable length and a potential steep upward arc, there is an important distinction in rubbers that, notwithstanding the easily-noted hybrids and cross-breeding, should be part of the conversation.  That distinction is between the traditional Chinese-style rubbers and the European/Japanese style rubbers.  

The playing characteristics between these two categories are sufficiently significant that a conscious decision should be made as to which of the two categories the player will be devoted to long term.  There are many technical and technique reasons for this decision to be made formally. 

Once this decision is made, rubbers within the selected category may be chosen for their initial use, with an intelligent perspective on future rubbers in the marketplace in that category that would graduate the capabilities of the equipment in concert with the graduated skills of the player.

Thanks.    

I agree with you, when you say that theres a significant difference between Chinese, and Euro/Jap style of rubbers.. 

On the other hand, here's the logic my pea-sized brain came-up with a while back, and applies purely to players at a beginner/developing level ... 

Hard'ish , tacky Chinese style rubbers are more demanding, in terms of proper stroke-technique, positioning and footwork, when compared to Euro-Jap rubbers.. 


The traditional Chinese tacky rubbers have a low-throw, are spin-sensitive, tend to be hard'ish, the ball does not sink in much, are on the heavier side...Hence, the combination of these factors, makes these rubbers, sort-of, less forgiving, and more demanding (compared to beginner-level Euro/Jap rubbers) , from a technique aspect. Take looping, for instance - Since the ball does not sink into the rubber as much (compared to Euro/Jap style rubbers), and since the rubbers tend to have a low-throw, a player, may be forced to loop with a proper brushing action...and if the brushing action is proper, I feel, the quality of the loop is better, generally speaking.... 

Another advantage of using tacky rubbers, for beginners, is service receive .. Since they tend to be sensitive to spin, receiving serves requires more technique. This same spin-sensitivity, make it harder to lift-backpsin, without proper technique... These rubbers, also tend to be rather spinny..

Chinese rubbers are also recommended for learning/improving/playing a short-game...

To put it in a nutshell - the very fact that these rubbers can very un-forgiving, if the technique is not correct, makes them a good choice, for someone still learning the ropes..




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2020 at 6:38am
Overall I agree on the points above.

I would add that plastic balls need more sponge engagement for speed and spin, so it would be wise for developing players not to use the hardest most inelastic Chinese rubbers. Instead, use softer Chinese rubbers. Between 37 and 39 degree, or 47-51 degree, depending on scale, sounds about right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2020 at 7:28am
Originally posted by Veet Veet wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

If the player in question is on a journey of development of considerable length and a potential steep upward arc, there is an important distinction in rubbers that, notwithstanding the easily-noted hybrids and cross-breeding, should be part of the conversation.  That distinction is between the traditional Chinese-style rubbers and the European/Japanese style rubbers.  

The playing characteristics between these two categories are sufficiently significant that a conscious decision should be made as to which of the two categories the player will be devoted to long term.  There are many technical and technique reasons for this decision to be made formally. 

Once this decision is made, rubbers within the selected category may be chosen for their initial use, with an intelligent perspective on future rubbers in the marketplace in that category that would graduate the capabilities of the equipment in concert with the graduated skills of the player.

Thanks.    

I agree with you, when you say that theres a significant difference between Chinese, and Euro/Jap style of rubbers.. 

On the other hand, here's the logic my pea-sized brain came-up with a while back, and applies purely to players at a beginner/developing level ... 

Hard'ish , tacky Chinese style rubbers are more demanding, in terms of proper stroke-technique, positioning and footwork, when compared to Euro-Jap rubbers.. 


The traditional Chinese tacky rubbers have a low-throw, are spin-sensitive, tend to be hard'ish, the ball does not sink in much, are on the heavier side...Hence, the combination of these factors, makes these rubbers, sort-of, less forgiving, and more demanding (compared to beginner-level Euro/Jap rubbers) , from a technique aspect. Take looping, for instance - Since the ball does not sink into the rubber as much (compared to Euro/Jap style rubbers), and since the rubbers tend to have a low-throw, a player, may be forced to loop with a proper brushing action...and if the brushing action is proper, I feel, the quality of the loop is better, generally speaking.... 

Another advantage of using tacky rubbers, for beginners, is service receive .. Since they tend to be sensitive to spin, receiving serves requires more technique. This same spin-sensitivity, make it harder to lift-backpsin, without proper technique... These rubbers, also tend to be rather spinny..

Chinese rubbers are also recommended for learning/improving/playing a short-game...

To put it in a nutshell - the very fact that these rubbers can very un-forgiving, if the technique is not correct, makes them a good choice, for someone still learning the ropes..




Thanks for the response.  Your description of the traditional Chinese rubbers is very well expressed.  Also, the advantages you cite are very commendable in assisting the developing player.

A couple points.  I think there has been a distortion of perspective on the European/Japanese style rubbers, a distortion of which the guilty party, agreed to unanimously by all the jury, is Tenergy, particularly Tenergy 05.  This revolutionary rubber added so much capability to the rubber sheet that its influence is historically unparalleled.  It's a Ferrari.  

At the introduction of Tenergy 05, there were and still are very many European/Japanese style rubbers that function in the essence of this category with considerably less firepower.  By finding the correct thickness of sponge and a medium sensitivity topsheet, one has a very good start in this category.

As a second point: if there is one attribute about the sport that most participants would agree to is that its demand for technique precision is very high indeed for those seeking high level play.  This sole fact is the prominent determinant that 1.72 zillion pimpled and anti-spin rubber sheets have been sold to-date.

The relationship between the racket equipment and precise play is deep and profound.  In recognizing this specific precision requirement is so demanding, and the acknowledgement of the role equipment participates in this precision, not a small amount of hair-raising anxiety is induced when the thought surfaces that the future of a poor, suffering development player may include a major equipment category transition, a process of irresistible and emotionally-challenging discomfort.  It is this sentiment that argues for an early commitment to, and the perpetuation within, one of the two rubber categories. 

Thanks again.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Veet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2020 at 11:43am
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

Overall I agree on the points above.

I would add that plastic balls need more sponge engagement for speed and spin, so it would be wise for developing players not to use the hardest most inelastic Chinese rubbers. Instead, use softer Chinese rubbers. Between 37 and 39 degree, or 47-51 degree, depending on scale, sounds about right.

Yep .. I wouldn't recommend 47° - 51° to any beginner ...  which is why I said hard'ish, meaning something around 39° - 42° at the most. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 2:48am
Originally posted by Veet Veet wrote:

Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

Overall I agree on the points above.

I would add that plastic balls need more sponge engagement for speed and spin, so it would be wise for developing players not to use the hardest most inelastic Chinese rubbers. Instead, use softer Chinese rubbers. Between 37 and 39 degree, or 47-51 degree, depending on scale, sounds about right.

Yep .. I wouldn't recommend 47° - 51° to any beginner ...  which is why I said hard'ish, meaning something around 39° - 42° at the most. 

That's a fair point. Maybe I would add that some players have a stronger impact on one side, so they might as well use a bit harder rubbers there. I would give them medium or medium soft rubbers that are not too fast and have a decently grippy top sheet. Might as well recommend the cheap ass mercury II again, you can choose between three hardnesses, it's inexpensive, has good control and can be played all the way until advanced (boosted then though). So it's perfect for beginners. In fact I still play it on BH to this day.
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