Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  Help Desk Help Desk  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Supinate vs Pronate
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login
tabletennis11.com

Supinate vs Pronate

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

LOL WTF happened  to my thread. 

Sorry :(
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Little explanation video for BH with pronation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9cB-KIUxJs
I did tell about one bone - actually there are 2 but not to dive deep into medical stuff - omitted that.

You are right scientifically on the definition, but what you're showing is still not forearm pronation, because even if there was no forearm rotation whatsoever, if you lift your hand upwards, naturally the blade angle will become more open, ie the BH face would be facing the ceiling. The fact that it's not, is evidence that you actually supinated... it is confusing but blade angle is not just a function of pronation/supination but a whole lot of other joints too, so really the blade angle is not entirely an indication of supination/pronation, but it does provide some clues as to what is happening. 

Even Ovtcharov who uses supination heavily, starts with the bat more than closed (because of how much he actually bows and squats before he explodes). However if you pause videos at the impact point, it is relatively perpendicular to the ball, and then he closes it aggressively after. So if you just looked at blade angles you would be confused af because it goes from closed to open to closed, but it all makes sense because the body movement is what causes it to go from closed to open, and the supination is what causes it to close again. But really what the ball feels is the the open blade angle sinking it into the sponge and then being flung outwards with a closing blade angle. The more you close the more spin you create and the more dwell time you get. 

This is why I said it's a very subtle difference, I can have a stroke with supination and a stroke without supination and from the naked eye of a bystander he most likely would not be able to really tell, unless he was doing slowmo analysis. However it makes a whole lot of difference to the results (spin quality and stability)


Edited by blahness - 11/14/2020 at 10:25pm
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13322
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

LOL WTF happened  to my thread. 
I had to roll the topic back a long way to find one of those words: Dignics or Tenergy.
And they posted about it there in the very beginning of the topic... this forum needs a real moderator.

I will separate the topics as soon as I figure out how to do so.  In general I am not as offended as other people are by topics veering off as this is what happens in every day life.  That said, I do recognize size that many people want to see the original topic discussed and that the path it has taken can be discussed elsewhere.   Just give me some time to figure out how to perform the separation. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: TBD (MX-S, C1)
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
jpenmaster View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 12/24/2008
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 2039
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 11:41pm
I dont care. I find it funny. Don't waste your time ML vs Harimoto is starting soon.

Edited by jpenmaster - 11/14/2020 at 11:43pm
Kenta ALC T05H/T05
Back to Top
Valiantsin View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 05/21/2020
Location: OFallon
Status: Offline
Points: 124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

You are right scientifically on the definition, but what you're showing is still not forearm pronation,
Hi blahness,
I don't really insist on all that stuff.
I showed something - you think it's not what it is or I do not think in a right way.
Sorry - don't care - just have no the aim to prove that you are wrong and I am right or vice versa:)


Edited by Valiantsin - 11/14/2020 at 11:58pm
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2020 at 2:08am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
Time to open a screwy thread about pronating the bh; the SH BH chop block or PH punch BH block along the line are so yesterday!
Joke aside, when Gauzy flicks a ball on his short fh with his bh rubber (the strawberry?), it's a pronation where the bh is somehow involved. 

Lol yes that is the exception, the strawberry (as well as the BH pendulum serve) involves forearm pronation...
BH chop also involves pronation.
For example I did such a sample :
Blade: Yinhe T11s Black: Fastarc G1, Red: Bluegrip R1

That one seems forced a bit. I've watched a lot of chopping videos and dont recall seeing that kind of exaggerated movement. Joo se hyuk, han ying etc. I think in jsh tutorial video he directly says he tries not to use his wrist much. 

I'm sure there are different techniques etc. But that is one I've not really seen before, maybe other than wide backhand shots to angle the ball back toward the table 

Not sure if it's even remotely similar, but i do quite a bit of chopblocking (especially against long serves when I'm taken by surprise), and pronation is crucial in generating heavy spin, same with supination on the FH chopblock. 

Also, pronation/supination is not a wrist movement but a forearm movement. 
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
Back to Top
fmarek View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/08/2018
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 468
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fmarek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 5:21am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 

Can you please share link to some vid where Ica n see what you are talking about? I don't believe you at all because contact time of ball on the rubber is so short, don't think anyone can do anything meaningful during contact LOL. Happy to be wrong after watching your vids. Thanks.
DHS HL5, FH: 729 Battle II Gold H40, BH: Palio HK1997 Gold
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13322
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 9:02am
Originally posted by fmarek fmarek wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 

Can you please share link to some vid where Ica n see what you are talking about? I don't believe you at all because contact time of ball on the rubber is so short, don't think anyone can do anything meaningful during contact LOL. Happy to be wrong after watching your vids. Thanks.

While I think your request is reasonable, I think the focus on the time the racket is in contact with the ball reflects a common misperception that what the racket itself does at the ball isn't influenced by what is done before and after contact.  When you hit a ball, what happens at contact while short is fully determined by what happens before you hit the ball and what happens after you hit the ball since the stroke is a continuous function and not a digital input.  

So blahness isn't going to start pronating or supinating at contact.   It will be built into his full stroke motion.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: TBD (MX-S, C1)
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fmarek fmarek wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 

Can you please share link to some vid where Ica n see what you are talking about? I don't believe you at all because contact time of ball on the rubber is so short, don't think anyone can do anything meaningful during contact LOL. Happy to be wrong after watching your vids. Thanks.

While I think your request is reasonable, I think the focus on the time the racket is in contact with the ball reflects a common misperception that what the racket itself does at the ball isn't influenced by what is done before and after contact.  When you hit a ball, what happens at contact while short is fully determined by what happens before you hit the ball and what happens after you hit the ball since the stroke is a continuous function and not a digital input.  

So blahness isn't going to start pronating or supinating at contact.   It will be built into his full stroke motion.

That is generally correct, it is a timing thing controlled by the brain. There are a ton of examples of this aggressive pronation/supination in many slowmo shots. 
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
Back to Top
Valiantsin View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 05/21/2020
Location: OFallon
Status: Offline
Points: 124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Little explanation video for BH with pronation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9cB-KIUxJs
I did tell about one bone - actually there are 2 but not to dive deep into medical stuff - omitted that.

You are right scientifically on the definition, but what you're showing is still not forearm pronation, because even if there was no forearm rotation whatsoever, if you lift your hand upwards, naturally the blade angle will become more open, ie the BH face would be facing the ceiling. The fact that it's not, is evidence that you actually supinated..
Just took a closer look at it.
Here you should take a look on palm relatively to elbow not "BH face would be facing the ceiling" and again Dmitry is mostly supinates while Fan is pronating and supinating according to situation.
That video together with video of me showed the start and finish positions from where it was easy to see the pronation on BH.
But again if you see and do not believe who am I to insist)))?
 
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Little explanation video for BH with pronation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9cB-KIUxJs
I did tell about one bone - actually there are 2 but not to dive deep into medical stuff - omitted that.

You are right scientifically on the definition, but what you're showing is still not forearm pronation, because even if there was no forearm rotation whatsoever, if you lift your hand upwards, naturally the blade angle will become more open, ie the BH face would be facing the ceiling. The fact that it's not, is evidence that you actually supinated..
Just took a closer look at it.
Here you should take a look on palm relatively to elbow not "BH face would be facing the ceiling" and again Dmitry is mostly supinates while Fan is pronating and supinating according to situation.
That video together with video of me showed the start and finish positions from where it was easy to see the pronation on BH.
But again if you see and do not believe who am I to insist)))?
 

See , when did FZD pronate for the BH?
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
Back to Top
passifid View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/22/2015
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 6:08pm
Literally the first slow Mo. 17 seconds. He just before contacting starts to go from a very closes racquet face to a slightly closed one by the end of the stroke. 
Ergo he opens the face by about 30-40 degrees giving some pronation. Pronation is the action of opening the face not where it ends up relative to flat
Back to Top
Valiantsin View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 05/21/2020
Location: OFallon
Status: Offline
Points: 124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

See , when did FZD pronate for the BH?
Take closer look at the palm direction according to elbow watching direction, to check how actual rotation around axis of wrist happens.

Here is my starting point explanation:

Here is my finish point explanation:

Here is my in game situation (with robot training actually) you can see wrist is supinated:

My finishing point - you can see the wrist is pronated (wrist's relaxed - no more supination):


Now can take a look at FZD sample (at start wrist is supinated):

And his finishing point (wrist is relaxed - no more supination on it):


P.S.
Corrected post as attached from different explanation on how to do BH with supination instead of pronation.


Edited by Valiantsin - 11/22/2020 at 6:30pm
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

See , when did FZD pronate for the BH?
Take closer look at the palm direction according to elbow watching direction, to check how actual rotation around axis of wrist happens.

Here is my starting point explanation:

Here is my finish point explanation:

Here is my in game situation (with robot training actually) you can see wrist is supinated:

My finishing point - you can see the wrist is pronated (wrist's relaxed - no more supination):


Now can take a look at FZD sample (at start wrist is supinated):

And his finishing point (wrist is relaxed - no more supination on it):


P.S.
Corrected post as attached from different explanation on how to do BH with supination instead of pronation.

Hi Valiantsin, the wrist movement from Fan Zhendong also includes a fair deal of wrist flexion/extension which also changes the blade angle. Pronation/supination has nothing to do with the wrist to forearm angle, because it's internal rotation of the forearm itself (which is why it's notoriously difficult to spot) and is not a wrist action. You can pronate without moving your wrist at all. 

TT Gold recently uploaded a video which includes this gem here at 6:44 onwards explaining pronation in the FH.

-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
Back to Top
fmarek View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/08/2018
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 468
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fmarek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fmarek fmarek wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 

Can you please share link to some vid where Ica n see what you are talking about? I don't believe you at all because contact time of ball on the rubber is so short, don't think anyone can do anything meaningful during contact LOL. Happy to be wrong after watching your vids. Thanks.

While I think your request is reasonable, I think the focus on the time the racket is in contact with the ball reflects a common misperception that what the racket itself does at the ball isn't influenced by what is done before and after contact.  When you hit a ball, what happens at contact while short is fully determined by what happens before you hit the ball and what happens after you hit the ball since the stroke is a continuous function and not a digital input.  

So blahness isn't going to start pronating or supinating at contact.   It will be built into his full stroke motion.

This 100%. Totally agree with you about idea of full motion. My understanding is that it works well when we talk about one direction. If direction changes after contact then ... unless there is magic involved I don't see how this changes trajectory. That "wrap" should be so precise.
DHS HL5, FH: 729 Battle II Gold H40, BH: Palio HK1997 Gold
Back to Top
Valiantsin View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 05/21/2020
Location: OFallon
Status: Offline
Points: 124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Hi Valiantsin, the wrist movement from Fan Zhendong also includes a fair deal of wrist flexion/extension which also changes the blade angle. Pronation/supination has nothing to do with the wrist to forearm angle, because it's internal rotation of the forearm itself (which is why it's notoriously difficult to spot) and is not a wrist action. You can pronate without moving your wrist at all. 

TT Gold recently uploaded a video which includes this gem here at 6:44 onwards explaining pronation in the FH.

Hi blahness,
there is an explanation where I meant you should take a look at:
P.S. 
Sorry for my poor english 



Edited by Valiantsin - 11/22/2020 at 9:06pm
Back to Top
fmarek View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/08/2018
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 468
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fmarek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 9:40pm
Thank you very nice videos. The slow motion fragment at around 17 sec, can be further slowed down in youtube to 0.25. 

What we see is relatively thin brushing action. Upwards. For top spin against side spin + back spin. Wrist is positioned in such a way that contact point on the ball is on the left side at around 8-9 o'clock. My coach teach me that left 9 o'clock point is used when incoming ball rotates counter clockwise. FZD executed absolutely mind blowing brush. Looking at steep arc it gave to the ball and direction of bounce, that was loop of a god :)

While shot is executed with great precision I see nothing special in terms of wrapping. It was brushing motion in one direction with very short follow through. I might be looking at wrong part but where is wrap around?

Back to video at 1:21 sec. Samsonov serves backspin + side spin clockwise (by the looks of it) FZD loops. This time the contact point is not on the left side of the ball but behind the ball (in front of his body). This contact point is for looping against clockwise sidespin. FZD's follow through - racket pointing straight up stops at face level. Contact point was thin. Ball has got a crazy topspin on it. It bounced low and forward with "kick effect". Samsonov did not calculate for that top spin, ball goes long. At 1:25 FZD is already loaded his BH topspin gun, waiting. Amazing opening attack, but where is wrap around? :)


DHS HL5, FH: 729 Battle II Gold H40, BH: Palio HK1997 Gold
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by fmarek fmarek wrote:

Thank you very nice videos. The slow motion fragment at around 17 sec, can be further slowed down in youtube to 0.25. 

What we see is relatively thin brushing action. Upwards. For top spin against side spin + back spin. Wrist is positioned in such a way that contact point on the ball is on the left side at around 8-9 o'clock. My coach teach me that left 9 o'clock point is used when incoming ball rotates counter clockwise. FZD executed absolutely mind blowing brush. Looking at steep arc it gave to the ball and direction of bounce, that was loop of a god :)

While shot is executed with great precision I see nothing special in terms of wrapping. It was brushing motion in one direction with very short follow through. I might be looking at wrong part but where is wrap around?

Back to video at 1:21 sec. Samsonov serves backspin + side spin clockwise (by the looks of it) FZD loops. This time the contact point is not on the left side of the ball but behind the ball (in front of his body). This contact point is for looping against clockwise sidespin. FZD's follow through - racket pointing straight up stops at face level. Contact point was thin. Ball has got a crazy topspin on it. It bounced low and forward with "kick effect". Samsonov did not calculate for that top spin, ball goes long. At 1:25 FZD is already loaded his BH topspin gun, waiting. Amazing opening attack, but where is wrap around? :)



With both these strokes, you don't even need to watch the blade angle, you can already see the forearm rotating physically from the slowmo. It's clearly supination (clockwise rotation from FZD's perspective). I play the chiquita myself, and it's almost all supination. 
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Hi Valiantsin, the wrist movement from Fan Zhendong also includes a fair deal of wrist flexion/extension which also changes the blade angle. Pronation/supination has nothing to do with the wrist to forearm angle, because it's internal rotation of the forearm itself (which is why it's notoriously difficult to spot) and is not a wrist action. You can pronate without moving your wrist at all. 

TT Gold recently uploaded a video which includes this gem here at 6:44 onwards explaining pronation in the FH.

Hi blahness,
there is an explanation where I meant you should take a look at:
P.S. 
Sorry for my poor english 


I know where you're getting at. It's mainly because you're looking at the blade angle changes going from closed to open hence it must be pronation. But really what I'm trying to explain is that it's not necessarily the case. Try lifting your hand and watch how the blade angle changes.
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
Back to Top
Valiantsin View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 05/21/2020
Location: OFallon
Status: Offline
Points: 124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


I know where you're getting at. It's mainly because you're looking at the blade angle changes going from closed to open hence it must be pronation. But really what I'm trying to explain is that it's not necessarily the case. Try lifting your hand and watch how the blade angle changes.
One more time - take a look at palm direction i.e. bones - I do not speak anything about blade now.
So when the palm to wrist joint is in the same plane together with elbow part of bones then it's a marker for you.
If you take a look after that to these exact parts of wrist you will easily see where the pronation took place and where supination.

It's evident that sometimes FZD does supination, sometimes pronation.

Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2020 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


I know where you're getting at. It's mainly because you're looking at the blade angle changes going from closed to open hence it must be pronation. But really what I'm trying to explain is that it's not necessarily the case. Try lifting your hand and watch how the blade angle changes.
One more time - take a look at palm direction i.e. bones - I do not speak anything about blade now.
So when the palm to wrist joint is in the same plane together with elbow part of bones then it's a marker for you.
If you take a look after that to these exact parts of wrist you will easily see where the pronation took place and where supination.

It's evident that sometimes FZD does supination, sometimes pronation.


Palm direction is basically the same as the blade angle. When you raise the hand, your palm direction naturally changes. But raising your hand is not pronation... this is also why this topic is so difficult :(
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
Back to Top
ghostzen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 08/15/2010
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 643
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/23/2020 at 3:01am
Nice videos and thanks for creating and  posting Thumbs Up


Back to Top
fmarek View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/08/2018
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 468
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fmarek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/23/2020 at 3:09am
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

LOL WTF happened  to my thread. 

Didn't you get it yet? Dic**ics is for pronation while Tenergy is for supination or the other way around LOL
DHS HL5, FH: 729 Battle II Gold H40, BH: Palio HK1997 Gold
Back to Top
ghostzen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 08/15/2010
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 643
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/23/2020 at 3:41am
Yep that changed quick didn't it GeekThe new world order and all Wink Dignics and Tenergy discussions are soo last year. Better to discuss the sometime invisible sometimes not movements which seems tricky to actually explain plainly. 

Valiatstin video work is nice and appreciated definitely as a way to shed more clear light on "wrapping" the ball to increase stroke quality.

Jokes aside both are a good topic











Edited by ghostzen - 11/23/2020 at 3:57am
Back to Top
bars View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/07/2017
Location: EZ
Status: Offline
Points: 151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/23/2020 at 4:50am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Dignics completely destroys Tenergy in short game control and also the amount of gears available. 

Tenergy is good only if you need the rubber to help you out in power...


its amazing how the tone has changed about tenergy lol.

you could say that about carbon blades also
Back to Top
bars View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/07/2017
Location: EZ
Status: Offline
Points: 151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/23/2020 at 4:50am
and booster
Back to Top
DonnOlsen View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/15/2008
Location: Maryland, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1055
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/23/2020 at 7:30am
Dignics completely destroys Tenergy in short game control and also the amount of gears available. 

Here is a view: More precisely, using the "gears" metaphor, Dignics has more lower gears, Dignics does not have more higher gears.  Moreover, it may be argued Tenergy has more higher gears, and Tenergy 05 Hard has the most high gears.

Thanks.
Optimal table tennis body fat percentages:
Men    8 - 15%
Women 16 - 22%
Back to Top
Valiantsin View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 05/21/2020
Location: OFallon
Status: Offline
Points: 124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/23/2020 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Better to discuss the sometime invisible sometimes not movements which seems tricky to actually explain plainly. 
Valiatstin video work is nice and appreciated definitely as a way to shed more clear light on "wrapping" the ball to increase stroke quality. 
Jokes aside both are a good topic 
Thank you :) 

Just would like to tell that those who tell following 3 things are right in their own way:
1) There is no "wrap" movement;
2) There is "wrap" movement;
3) The pronation or supination is build into the full stroke motion;

Point 1) is right from Physics - yes - there is no rolling of ball and there is no wrapping around the ball with the paddle;
Instead there is a really short interaction period between the ball, the rubber and the wood.
Angles in which this interaction happened together with motion on the ball and motion of paddle apply tension to the rubber which is making shot itself.

Point 2) is right from Proprioception - it is the sense through which we perceive the position and movement of our body, senses that depend on the notion of force
It is connected with muscle spindles - actual organelle which reacts to something that happened with our muscles.
In this case it is our feedback from the paddle - and it is 0.1-0.001 sec (depending on action potential of fusimotor action - whether calcium(slow) or natrium(fast)) 
late as the contact already happened.
So here we come to the 3) point.

Point 3) is right from the point of biomechanics.
We stretch the motion of pronation on approximate period of time when we expect that actual interaction between ball and paddle will happen.
It is actually not the only motion we do with our wrist.
It's impossible to isolately do stroke without using any of them: flexion/extension, radial/ulnar deviation or pronation/supination, 
because balancing of paddle will include all of them anyway.

The only thing - it's better to know about them and to use properly instead of closing the eyes and not taking them to attention.



Edited by Valiantsin - 11/23/2020 at 12:21pm
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3775
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 6:43pm
Played today and my blue sponge Hurricane was close to unplayable :( 

I think I'm getting sick of Hurricanes hardening prematurely and feeling like a brick unless you boost/tune it again, just gonna switch to double D09c from now on and save myself all the trouble.
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Hurricane 3 Provincial Blue Sponge
BH: Dignics 09c
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Assistant Admin
Assistant Admin
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: USA
Status: Online
Points: 348
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 7:05pm
To keep things simple, right or left handed: 

-Pronation in the fh is starting with the palm facing up and finishing with the palm facing down.

Of course at the end of the fh back swing, people often have the palm facing down but it does not have to be to produce a good fh, it's just for simplicity, giving a one dimensional fh that flies through a plane. We could push saying that palm facing down at the end of the fh back swing is technically incomplete because we'll just have the brushing without any help from the pronation.


-Supination in the bh is starting with the palm facing down and finishing with the palm facing up.

Of course at the end of the bh back swing, people often have the palm facing up but it does not have to be to produce a good bh, it's just for simplicity, giving a one dimensional bh that flies through a plane. We could push saying that palm facing up at the end of the bh back swing is technically incomplete because we'll just have the brushing without any help from the supination.

----------

An idea to train pronation in the fh is finishing the fh back swing with the thumb able to point behind us. It can only point forward when we cancel pronation out with the palm facing down at the end of the back swing.

An idea to train supination in the bh is finishing the bh back swing with the thumb able to press the belly button. Only the pinky can do that when we cancel supination out with the palm facing up at the end of the back swing. Note: it is not comfortable to train supination that way on the bh, I find easier to finish the bh back swing with the thumb able to press on the non playing hip.



Edited by stiltt - 11/25/2020 at 7:28pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2020 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.