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Winning majority of points from serve and receive

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    Posted: 12/17/2020 at 6:00am
Do you feel a bit disgusted when you win/lose 90% of the points just with serve and receive? 

Today I played against a player who was probably 50%-50% in terms of topspin rallying with me, and then when we played a match it was just terrible... Over the course of 8 games or so, he failed to even receive my serve (ie put it on the table) I think 80%-90% of the time because he wasn't used to the spin variations and elaborate disguises. And I just abused my new pushflick receive when I received his standard looking serves, and he too was completely bamboozled. I didn't even loop much unless to punish high opportunity balls... it was completely one sided and not even close (I initially thought he was similar in level to me?!)

I felt so bad for doing it, there was none of the beautiful rallies we had during practice and I feel like I was winning in a super ugly and unsportsmanlike way :(  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 7:27am
Believe this guy is so called "King of practicing".

But sometimes this happens with me as well when I don't have training for a while.
Then I become such a king)))
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 9:19am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Do you feel a bit disgusted when you win/lose 90% of the points just with serve and receive? 

Today I played against a player who was probably 50%-50% in terms of topspin rallying with me, and then when we played a match it was just terrible... Over the course of 8 games or so, he failed to even receive my serve (ie put it on the table) I think 80%-90% of the time because he wasn't used to the spin variations and elaborate disguises. And I just abused my new pushflick receive when I received his standard looking serves, and he too was completely bamboozled. I didn't even loop much unless to punish high opportunity balls... it was completely one sided and not even close (I initially thought he was similar in level to me?!)

I felt so bad for doing it, there was none of the beautiful rallies we had during practice and I feel like I was winning in a super ugly and unsportsmanlike way :(  

This is EXACTLY what I aspire to!!! I want to win most of my points on serve or serve return. This is 67% of the game!!


Edited by vanjr - 12/17/2020 at 9:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 10:35am
It's sounds like the player you are playing is quite a bit weaker overall than you to be honest or they had a very very bad day at the office if they are normally stronger.

It's quite easy to look like a god when playing someone a lot weaker.

It's like playing a different game a bit.

Nice that you managed to beat him so easy mind. Thumbs Up


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 10:53am
No, I don't feel bad. EVERY POINT starts with a serve or a receive. Yet they are the least practiced shots. Forehand to forehand counterlooping get ten times the attention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 11:12am
Reminds me of the start of this video .....Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 11:35am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Reminds me of the start of this video .....Smile


So Very Very Very true!!!!!!

You can't be good at anything you don't practice.  And in terms of serving, a lot of players never learn what a good serve even is, so have no idea even WHAT to practice.  




Edited by Baal - 12/17/2020 at 11:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 11:42am
It is good to practice completely dominating an opponent once in a while so you do not lose that attitude and skill when you need it in a tournament match.  It can be really important in conserving energy for later matches.

However, if you do it all the time you lose valuable practice opportunities.  If you do not get returns or 3rd balls in practice matches you can get lazy with you footwork and preparation.  Then when you play someone who can return balls you are in a lot of trouble.  

It is also good for your opponent to sometimes have to deal with difficult serves and returns.  If he does not see them, then he can not get better at returning them.  So use a mix of serve/return domination and playing into opponents strengths in different matches and you will both benefit.

Mark 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 11:45am
ELABORATE DISGUISES!! Blah's out there again drawing animal shapes in the air with his paddle for a wind-up and follow through stroke on the serve! 

Tell the guy to get anit/long pips for serve receive and get to the rally game easier
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 1:40pm
When I end up in a match like that, when they miss a serve I will tell them "same serve".  I will keep saying "same serve" until they get it.  If that doesn't work I will tell them the spin and location.  If that still doesn't work I will how to return that serve.  I've played matches where after a few points I've told them what I'm doing on every serve and how to return it.

It's a waste of time to win all the points on missed returns.  I end up giving them a lesson on serve return.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

ELABORATE DISGUISES!! Blah's out there again drawing animal shapes in the air with his paddle for a wind-up and follow through stroke on the serve! 

Tell the guy to get anit/long pips for serve receive and get to the rally game easier

Lmao I practice my serve movements in front of the mirror so that the variations look as close as possible. And I can serve everything to everywhere (2 types of pendulum, reverse pendulum, 2 types of hook serves, tomahawk, no spin/heavy under), all from the same preparatory movement. 

To those who never seen my serves before, it can be really disgusting to receive them lol.... Every single one of them has some fake movements.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

When I end up in a match like that, when they miss a serve I will tell them "same serve".  I will keep saying "same serve" until they get it.  If that doesn't work I will tell them the spin and location.  If that still doesn't work I will how to return that serve.  I've played matches where after a few points I've told them what I'm doing on every serve and how to return it.

It's a waste of time to win all the points on missed returns.  I end up giving them a lesson on serve return.  

Damn you're such a gentleman.... that's so nice :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

It is good to practice completely dominating an opponent once in a while so you do not lose that attitude and skill when you need it in a tournament match.  It can be really important in conserving energy for later matches.

However, if you do it all the time you lose valuable practice opportunities.  If you do not get returns or 3rd balls in practice matches you can get lazy with you footwork and preparation.  Then when you play someone who can return balls you are in a lot of trouble.  

It is also good for your opponent to sometimes have to deal with difficult serves and returns.  If he does not see them, then he can not get better at returning them.  So use a mix of serve/return domination and playing into opponents strengths in different matches and you will both benefit.

Mark 
Hmm yes it makes me super lazy on my footwork and looping.Honestly looping is the most difficult way to win a point I feel.Most players I play are beasts at topspin to topspin rallies and it's at best 50%-50%. I prefer to load up on the quality of the first ball (especially spin) so much that it doesn't get returned at all, but found it quite tiring to do it across an entire match. 

Sometimes like what you said, having a good serve and receive can really conserve energy in matches
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Do you feel a bit disgusted when you win/lose 90% of the points just with serve and receive? 

Today I played against a player who was probably 50%-50% in terms of topspin rallying with me, and then when we played a match it was just terrible... Over the course of 8 games or so, he failed to even receive my serve (ie put it on the table) I think 80%-90% of the time because he wasn't used to the spin variations and elaborate disguises. And I just abused my new pushflick receive when I received his standard looking serves, and he too was completely bamboozled. I didn't even loop much unless to punish high opportunity balls... it was completely one sided and not even close (I initially thought he was similar in level to me?!)

I felt so bad for doing it, there was none of the beautiful rallies we had during practice and I feel like I was winning in a super ugly and unsportsmanlike way :(  

Did he at least serve you long to start a rally when he served?
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Do you feel a bit disgusted when you win/lose 90% of the points just with serve and receive? 

Today I played against a player who was probably 50%-50% in terms of topspin rallying with me, and then when we played a match it was just terrible... Over the course of 8 games or so, he failed to even receive my serve (ie put it on the table) I think 80%-90% of the time because he wasn't used to the spin variations and elaborate disguises. And I just abused my new pushflick receive when I received his standard looking serves, and he too was completely bamboozled. I didn't even loop much unless to punish high opportunity balls... it was completely one sided and not even close (I initially thought he was similar in level to me?!)

I felt so bad for doing it, there was none of the beautiful rallies we had during practice and I feel like I was winning in a super ugly and unsportsmanlike way :(  

Did he at least serve you long to start a rally when he served?

I used the pushflick and some chopblocks even for the long serves haha...it worked amazing tbh even better than looping as he was a good blocker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

It is good to practice completely dominating an opponent once in a while so you do not lose that attitude and skill when you need it in a tournament match.  It can be really important in conserving energy for later matches.

However, if you do it all the time you lose valuable practice opportunities.  If you do not get returns or 3rd balls in practice matches you can get lazy with you footwork and preparation.  Then when you play someone who can return balls you are in a lot of trouble.  

It is also good for your opponent to sometimes have to deal with difficult serves and returns.  If he does not see them, then he can not get better at returning them.  So use a mix of serve/return domination and playing into opponents strengths in different matches and you will both benefit.

Mark 
Hmm yes it makes me super lazy on my footwork and looping.Honestly looping is the most difficult way to win a point I feel.Most players I play are beasts at topspin to topspin rallies and it's at best 50%-50%. I prefer to load up on the quality of the first ball (especially spin) so much that it doesn't get returned at all, but found it quite tiring to do it across an entire match. 

Sometimes like what you said, having a good serve and receive can really conserve energy in matches
I was gonna say that if you have around the same level in open play and completely dominate in service receive, then they either had a really terrible day or your open play is very weak compared to your opening shots. Based on your last post, it might be that you lack practice partners that are able to consistently return your shots in order for you to improve your open rallying
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

It is good to practice completely dominating an opponent once in a while so you do not lose that attitude and skill when you need it in a tournament match.  It can be really important in conserving energy for later matches.

However, if you do it all the time you lose valuable practice opportunities.  If you do not get returns or 3rd balls in practice matches you can get lazy with you footwork and preparation.  Then when you play someone who can return balls you are in a lot of trouble.  

It is also good for your opponent to sometimes have to deal with difficult serves and returns.  If he does not see them, then he can not get better at returning them.  So use a mix of serve/return domination and playing into opponents strengths in different matches and you will both benefit.

Mark 
Hmm yes it makes me super lazy on my footwork and looping.Honestly looping is the most difficult way to win a point I feel.Most players I play are beasts at topspin to topspin rallies and it's at best 50%-50%. I prefer to load up on the quality of the first ball (especially spin) so much that it doesn't get returned at all, but found it quite tiring to do it across an entire match. 

Sometimes like what you said, having a good serve and receive can really conserve energy in matches
I was gonna say that if you have around the same level in open play and completely dominate in service receive, then they either had a really terrible day or your open play is very weak compared to your opening shots. Based on your last post, it might be that you lack practice partners that are able to consistently return your shots in order for you to improve your open rallying
Honestly it's definitely the latter, my open play is very much weaker than my serve/receive and opening loop... For eg I can't reliably do consistent mid distance strong loops like most two wing loopers can at my level. I can do close table topspin countering quite well though, but that usually can't get the point because it seems like everyone and their dog can counter like madmen lol. So my attacking pattern is very different from other people,  normally people open with medium quality and increase the quality as the rally goes on (the loops get spinnier and faster). Due to my weakness in continuous looping I start with loading up the opening loop, then move closer to the table to try to change the direction or do a quick counter. 

Tbh I wanna be able to get to the point where I can loop continuously from mid distance, but definitely lack the training to be able to do that. One potential problem like what you mentioned is that when I start loading up my topspin, the people around me aren't very good at blocking that so I never get to train the second and third shot, which is a bummer.


Edited by blahness - 12/17/2020 at 6:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 7:36pm
You have perfected weapons that matter more than the shot you opponent has mastered. Zero shame.

Tennis analogy, you occasionally run into players who "just want to rally." And they are great at it, very steady. But when they play a match, they have two serves, one that is really fast but never goes in, and a second serve with light underspin that pops up short and is easy to hit for a clean winner. These people aren't tennis players! At best they are rally partners.

Same with table tennis, if you totally ignore certain elements of the game you get what you deserve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 8:28pm
@blahness
Do you have the opportunity to do multiball? I would just ask my partner to feed me multiball against topspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2020 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

@blahness
Do you have the opportunity to do multiball? I would just ask my partner to feed me multiball against topspin.

I've been doing some multiball recently haha, it's helped quite a bit. I also realise that a lot of my problems are caused by my weak and slow legs, haha...

So for eg after a few backhand to backhands, when faced with a ball to the wide FH, instead of doing two wide steps to place my right foot as close to the ball then play a balanced FH topspin, I always never manage to land my right foot close enough so I have to do a big cross step to hit it while  airborne, which takes up a lot more energy (as I found out), and also leaves me unbalanced for the next shot. 
Honestly some of it is laziness in moving the feet and bad habits (of reaching and not moving). I've been trying some shadow footwork exercises at home away from the table to try to program my mind to move first, and move faster, then hit the ball 


Edited by blahness - 12/17/2020 at 9:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2020 at 8:55pm
If you want to work on your legs send me a pn. I think I can help you out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/2020 at 11:03am
Horse stance or held squat maybe?

Weighted squats and leg raises could also be good. 




Edited by ghostzen - 12/19/2020 at 4:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2020 at 1:37am
Not on topic, but I did some targeted drills to help me move better haha. So there was a guy who can loop sidespin to the wide FH quite decently but quite poor at everything else. So I stood in my backhand corner, served easy topspin down the line, he looped to my wide FH, and then I had to get into position to counterloop it. 

I think basically this requires 3 steps. First is reaching with the right leg and shift the body weight towards the right, and then follow up by the left leg and then the right leg again to the final position. Did lots of shadowing to drill it into my mind, and surprisingly I started to be able to reach the balls in position and even counterloop them. It is significantly more stable and controlled and high quality compared to the version where I had to use crossover footwork and hit it while airborne. That said it seems that this 3 step footwork for wide balls also doesn't exclude doing crossover footwork for even wider balls. 

I'll need the reverse exercise too (stand in the forehand corner, serve, and then get back to wide BH to loop). 3 steps for the win haha. I use this 3 step combo for short balls too. 


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