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tactics against this guy

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    Posted: 12/24/2020 at 7:28pm
So he's a penholder with inverted FH and LP on the RPB.

Serve patterns: He has a ultra spinny FH pendulum which he usually serves diagonally to the BH corner. To give you an idea how spinny it is, he has a fast ghost serve, where the ball is served with normal speed and there's enough spin to make it reverse momentum and go back to the net.  Normally when people do that, they have to brush upwards and the ball is super slow, his is fast and yet it still goes back to the net. Essentially  because this serve is so spinny he forces a push.  He loves serving half long and I'm not good enough to loop those (I could use some of my newly learnt strawberry/pushflicks tho). The serve is mostly extremely heavy underspin but he has a sidespin variant too and he disguises them super well.The problem is that once I do any kind of push or receive, if it goes to the FH he has a devastating FH powerloop which is near undefendable because of the angles he gets (and he doesn't miss them much) and if it goes to his BH he uses his LP RPB to do some weird crap with the ball which I can't read because the spin is already very complex by the time I receive it. The LP RPB chiquita is the worst, I have absolutely no idea what spin is on the ball when he uses it. He can also do quite decent pushblocking with the LP, and there's also LP sideswipes etc... which are the worst. Sometimes he also uses his TPB which is like a wall, and he has the normal blocks, sidespin blocks and chopblocks... 

My ideas on serving is to do serve short with deceptive heavy spin to the FH to avoid the nasty pips receive coupled with long no-spin/heavy backspin into his deep BH to get a weaker return to finish off?  

What would you guys do? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2020 at 9:46pm
I would force him to use those LP

1. long fast serves on Bh 
      - dead ball - slap or spin it back
      - underspin - block(if he steps around and loops on his FH);LP - block/drive to his deep FH side 
      -topspin - controlled loop if he uses LP or power loop depending on where it lands on my end of the table; counter or block if he steps around to use his FH 

Unless he’s a chopper with pips, sounds like he’s compensating on that wing which is easy to predict.

As long as you remember what you give him, you’ll do great


Edited by mon22 - 12/24/2020 at 9:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2020 at 1:12am
Originally posted by mon22 mon22 wrote:

I would force him to use those LP

1. long fast serves on Bh 
      - dead ball - slap or spin it back
      - underspin - block(if he steps around and loops on his FH);LP - block/drive to his deep FH side 
      -topspin - controlled loop if he uses LP or power loop depending on where it lands on my end of the table; counter or block if he steps around to use his FH 

Unless he’s a chopper with pips, sounds like he’s compensating on that wing which is easy to predict.

As long as you remember what you give him, you’ll do great

He's not a chopper, imo his style is almost Ma Lin like with the exception that he's doing LPs on the RPB. Super fast footwork and reactions, takes the ball very early and has amazing serves + FH. It's all aggressive close table play including his use of the pips. 

Yeah that's what I think would work good too. I made the mistake of serving heavy sidetopspin/sideunderspin serves to his BH last time we played and was duly punished badly... I didn't know what I was thinking lol...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magic_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2020 at 3:04am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

What would you guys do?
I am waiting for the video Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2020 at 3:44am
Originally posted by Magic_M Magic_M wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

What would you guys do?
I am waiting for the video Wink

Not everyone likes having their faces published on an internet forum...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2020 at 11:50am
That sounds like a tough matchup.  Super heavy half-long serves are tough to handle.  Some players are able to take them very early and push short (or short enough to be troublesome), but that is tough.  Some others seem to be able to loop them comfortably, but that too is tough for most.  

Assuming that short pushes or loops are not good options for you, I'd strongly recommend playing to the long pips.  It will be tough, frustrating, and seemingly suicidal at first, but will get better with practice.  If this is a player you can play regularly, it will be the perfect chance to learn how to handle a tricky long pipper.  

I know you know this, but, what he can do with long pips is very nearly 100% dependent on what you give him.  It is almost impossible to "create" significant spin with most long pips.  Another thing I always have to remind myself it that, no matter what he (any LP opponent) does, you will get "less" back than you think.  No matter how fancy the strokes, the ball will come back with predictable spin (usually in the neighborhood of deadish) - but getting a good feel for that takes practice.  Also, aggresive punches and counters - even smashes - come back a noticeable and (for me) troublesome degree slower than my reactions think.  This results in lots of dumb misses due to timing errors.  

For me, it takes a LOT of practice to get comfortable with LP.  My brain knows what to do, but it takes a lot of reps to get my "reactions" to follow along.  Until you get comfortable, I'd avoid using sidespin to the LP.  Perhaps weirdly, once I get comfortable, I like using some sidespin to pips - many LPers (that I've played much) expect you to struggle, and you can cause them trouble if you can control these.  This is a skill best learned against non-aggressive LP players - it would probably be painful against this guy!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2020 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by bes bes wrote:

That sounds like a tough matchup.  Super heavy half-long serves are tough to handle.  Some players are able to take them very early and push short (or short enough to be troublesome), but that is tough.  Some others seem to be able to loop them comfortably, but that too is tough for most.  

Assuming that short pushes or loops are not good options for you, I'd strongly recommend playing to the long pips.  It will be tough, frustrating, and seemingly suicidal at first, but will get better with practice.  If this is a player you can play regularly, it will be the perfect chance to learn how to handle a tricky long pipper.  

I know you know this, but, what he can do with long pips is very nearly 100% dependent on what you give him.  It is almost impossible to "create" significant spin with most long pips.  Another thing I always have to remind myself it that, no matter what he (any LP opponent) does, you will get "less" back than you think.  No matter how fancy the strokes, the ball will come back with predictable spin (usually in the neighborhood of deadish) - but getting a good feel for that takes practice.  Also, aggresive punches and counters - even smashes - come back a noticeable and (for me) troublesome degree slower than my reactions think.  This results in lots of dumb misses due to timing errors.  

For me, it takes a LOT of practice to get comfortable with LP.  My brain knows what to do, but it takes a lot of reps to get my "reactions" to follow along.  Until you get comfortable, I'd avoid using sidespin to the LP.  Perhaps weirdly, once I get comfortable, I like using some sidespin to pips - many LPers (that I've played much) expect you to struggle, and you can cause them trouble if you can control these.  This is a skill best learned against non-aggressive LP players - it would probably be painful against this guy!

bes
Yeah he is the best player in my circle, I never got a set from him haha..only maybe getting 5-6 points per set. I hate giving him short pushes because as a penholder he has a very good short game, and the LP RPB chiquita and sideswipe combo is insane. Looping is preferable but I'm not judging the spin and length of the serve well enough. To loop these I would need a lot more precise footwork and anticipation which I'm still developing haha. I tend to have the best results against him when I loop ultra spinny to him. 

I think probably the best is to find some way to flip the serve to his BH....unfortunately all my flips are sidespin flips, which I'll have to learn how to deal with his LP returns of those, and then loop it. Once I start looping I feel I'm in control and will have good chances. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2020 at 10:30pm
I Played that style before I switched to shakehand (My BH is LP OX). You got the good idea on the serving :)
Beside others mentioned; when he served, he should usually serve underspin short to half long to invite a short game. You better not play short game with him. He could use FH or BH to counter your short game returns. With FH returns underspin/BH returns topspin or no spin (underspin too depends on his LP),  you would get in trouble very easy. You should try long push or flip to open a looping game. If you loop to his bh, watch he using TPB or RPB. The returning spin is different. 
At the end, if you cannot out loop him, the LP is the least of yr worries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 1:47am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

I Played that style before I switched to shakehand (My BH is LP OX). You got the good idea on the serving :)
Beside others mentioned; when he served, he should usually serve underspin short to half long to invite a short game. You better not play short game with him. He could use FH or BH to counter your short game returns. With FH returns underspin/BH returns topspin or no spin (underspin too depends on his LP),  you would get in trouble very easy. You should try long push or flip to open a looping game. If you loop to his bh, watch he using TPB or RPB. The returning spin is different. 
At the end, if you cannot out loop him, the LP is the least of yr worries.
Thanks for the feedback.
Yes this is what he likes, he is very good in the short game. Normally my style is to complicate the game with extreme angles and spin variations, but I feel like I actually need to simplify the game against him as he thrives even more on complexity. 

I think like what you said, I should probably use the pushflick or other flick  variations against his serves deep to his BH and then try to loop his return. I have quite good winning chances if I get to loop first in a good position. 


Edited by blahness - 12/26/2020 at 1:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 8:17am
Interesting and tricky for you

A play plan might be on the longer serve return to go real deep and wide with a lot of topspin and little pace. Steal the pace he uses against you on your return and make him move so he's not set. Very wide to the backhand or forehand should unbalance him a bit so the rally can continue and your chances go up a little bit. Also the LP won't be able to develop the pace that the main forehand weapon will. (unless he is... worldclass) and you know what you are getting from a topspin ball off the LP. trick returns regularly I think won't show much benifit I would think as placement will be king to find the hole in his armour you need to exploit. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 10:04am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

... Yeah he is the best player in my circle, I never got a set from him haha..only maybe getting 5-6 points per set ...
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

...and if it goes to his BH he uses his LP RPB to do some weird crap with the ball which I can't read because the spin is already very complex by the time I receive it. The LP RPB chiquita is the worst, I have absolutely no idea what spin is on the ball when he uses it. 

 

You also need to be realistic. If the above is the case, he is probably at least a level or more above you. Tactical adjustments are not likely to help you to beat or even seriously challenge him. You will need to improve all aspects of your game, starting with understanding and dealing with LP returns, so your own level goes up before tactics can be of help.

One bit of practical advice - ask him what he thinks are the weaker areas of your game - from his perspective -  that you should really improve upon. I've done this many times after losing to better players and there is always something useful to be gleaned from their comments.

Good luck.



Edited by vvk1 - 12/26/2020 at 10:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

... Yeah he is the best player in my circle, I never got a set from him haha..only maybe getting 5-6 points per set ...
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

...and if it goes to his BH he uses his LP RPB to do some weird crap with the ball which I can't read because the spin is already very complex by the time I receive it. The LP RPB chiquita is the worst, I have absolutely no idea what spin is on the ball when he uses it. 

 

You also need to be realistic. If the above is the case, he is probably at least a level or more above you. Tactical adjustments are not likely to help you to beat or even seriously challenge him. You will need to improve all aspects of your game, starting with understanding and dealing with LP returns, so your own level goes up before tactics can be of help.

One bit of practical advice - ask him what he thinks are the weaker areas of your game - from his perspective -  that you should really improve upon. I've done this many times after losing to better players and there is always something useful to be gleaned from their comments.

Good luck.


Agreed on the large skill distance between you both if they are the scores sorry to say. I totally missed that bit and read it twice!.

Great idea by vvk1 to ask for guidence from the player to see how you can try and approach that level of play. 


Edited by ghostzen - 12/26/2020 at 12:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 4:21pm
I am with just about everyone who posted.

If you cannot read his impact or discern his spin, you are screwed, blued, and tattooed. When this happens so many times in a game, that is a clear sign that player is way more than a level better that you. There isn't an aweful lot a player who is several levels not as good is gunna do to really dent a player that class. Not realistic to expect that right away.

The advise to have him use his pips and for you to learn how to cope with that in the longer run is an excellent practical strategic goal with what you have.

Figuring out what you gave him, how he impacted it and what he gave you are gunna be keys to growing vs this player. Already mentioned, you are not going to have immediate success, often even more immediate failure as you learn vs this dude.

Sometimes, even when I face a player who by rating is only a level better than me, I have some matches where I absolutely cannot discern the opponent's impact and I do not compete as well as I should. With enough time vs the same opponent, I do better. This is a very normal thing. Some people attribute this to a difference in style - that happens too, but sometimes, some opponents just strike the ball different and you do not discern it well soon enough.

Those are really golden opportunities. Most players will shy away from opponents they cannot read. A player should be looking for every chance to play vs players whose impact is difficult to read, and also should be seeking more time on table vs players who they do not read the serves as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

... Yeah he is the best player in my circle, I never got a set from him haha..only maybe getting 5-6 points per set ...
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

...and if it goes to his BH he uses his LP RPB to do some weird crap with the ball which I can't read because the spin is already very complex by the time I receive it. The LP RPB chiquita is the worst, I have absolutely no idea what spin is on the ball when he uses it. 

 

You also need to be realistic. If the above is the case, he is probably at least a level or more above you. Tactical adjustments are not likely to help you to beat or even seriously challenge him. You will need to improve all aspects of your game, starting with understanding and dealing with LP returns, so your own level goes up before tactics can be of help.

One bit of practical advice - ask him what he thinks are the weaker areas of your game - from his perspective -  that you should really improve upon. I've done this many times after losing to better players and there is always something useful to be gleaned from their comments.

Good luck.

I don't expect to beat him yet, but just wanna get a bit closer next time we play. He did mention that I wasn't really targeting his weaknesses and was underperforming my level haha...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 4:53pm
5-6 points per game and never taking a set is not a level difference...that's like 5 levels difference

no strategy or tactics will change anything and turn 5-6 points into winning games when the difference is that big, it is probably more productive to work on all your skills rather than trying to target this particular player and some arbitrary goal for points won per game. him being that much better of a player means he will just take this new strategy and just adjust and do what he was doing before which is winning comfortably.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Magic_M Magic_M wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

What would you guys do?
I am waiting for the video Wink

Not everyone likes having their faces published on an internet forum...

your face was clearly visible in the video you posted on the FH flick thread

just post the match video LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

I am with just about everyone who posted.

If you cannot read his impact or discern his spin, you are screwed, blued, and tattooed. When this happens so many times in a game, that is a clear sign that player is way more than a level better that you. There isn't an aweful lot a player who is several levels not as good is gunna do to really dent a player that class. Not realistic to expect that right away.

The advise to have him use his pips and for you to learn how to cope with that in the longer run is an excellent practical strategic goal with what you have.

Figuring out what you gave him, how he impacted it and what he gave you are gunna be keys to growing vs this player. Already mentioned, you are not going to have immediate success, often even more immediate failure as you learn vs this dude.

Sometimes, even when I face a player who by rating is only a level better than me, I have some matches where I absolutely cannot discern the opponent's impact and I do not compete as well as I should. With enough time vs the same opponent, I do better. This is a very normal thing. Some people attribute this to a difference in style - that happens too, but sometimes, some opponents just strike the ball different and you do not discern it well soon enough.

Those are really golden opportunities. Most players will shy away from opponents they cannot read. A player should be looking for every chance to play vs players whose impact is difficult to read, and also should be seeking more time on table vs players who they do not read the serves as well.


He was part of the inspiration for me to incorporate fake movements in the receive, he does that a lot. The LP return somehow isn't that straightforward, I'm definitely missing something there because I actually do quite well against LP chopblockers and not against him. He seems to have the ability to both reverse the spin and add to it, not reverse the spin, and kill the spin, all with very similar looking strokes. He also uses his TPB with weird sidespin strokes to throw you off even further. So much spin variation on the BH wing. 

And his footwork is insane, I serve deceptively all over the place and he still doesn't miss a beat in terms of taking it ultra early all the time (even his loops - he loops them on the rise unlike most players who loop top of the bounce or when it's dropping), I was always pressured for time when I play against him. To do better against him I need to seriously improve and tighten my footwork too (which is why I've been doing them). 


Edited by blahness - 12/26/2020 at 5:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Magic_M Magic_M wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

What would you guys do?
I am waiting for the video Wink

Not everyone likes having their faces published on an internet forum...

your face was clearly visible in the video you posted on the FH flick thread

just post the match video LOL
It wasn't fully visible Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

5-6 points per game and never taking a set is not a level difference...that's like 5 levels difference

no strategy or tactics will change anything and turn 5-6 points into winning games when the difference is that big, it is probably more productive to work on all your skills rather than trying to target this particular player and some arbitrary goal for points won per game. him being that much better of a player means he will just take this new strategy and just adjust and do what he was doing before which is winning comfortably.

I did have two games where I got 9 and 8 points which felt close, but those were balanced out by the 3,4 point games haha... I think if I somehow exploited the LPs a bit more I could probably win a set against him

Hmm I don't expect to win against him soon, but I want to close the gap. Playing against him is good for me as it is highly demanding and forces me to lift my game, and exposes holes in my own game, and gives me ideas on how to improve. I've actually had much better results against other players since I started playing with him occasionally. 


Edited by blahness - 12/26/2020 at 7:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

5-6 points per game and never taking a set is not a level difference...that's like 5 levels difference

no strategy or tactics will change anything and turn 5-6 points into winning games when the difference is that big, it is probably more productive to work on all your skills rather than trying to target this particular player and some arbitrary goal for points won per game. him being that much better of a player means he will just take this new strategy and just adjust and do what he was doing before which is winning comfortably.

I did have two games where I got 9 and 8 points which felt close, but those were balanced out by the 3,4 point games haha... I think if I somehow exploited the LPs a bit more I could probably win a set against him

Hmm I don't expect to win against him soon, but I want to close the gap. Playing against him is good for me as it is highly demanding and forces me to lift my game, and exposes holes in my own game, and gives me ideas on how to improve. I've actually had much better results against other players since I started playing with him occasionally. 

if he is beating you every single game and you are averaging 5-6 a game, then taking 8 to 9 here or there really means nothing, sorry it's not close. when i play people far below my level, one game could be 11-2, one game could be 11-9, and it makes no difference to me because i know i will win 3-0 anyways, so you let up or lack motivation. it has nothing to do with what tactical changes the lower player made, when the gap is that big. 

playing any better player exposes holes and forces you to lift your game. when you improve in general just by your regular training, then you will get closer to beating that player. when you start to take games consistently, then maybe tactics will start to matter. but until the gap is somewhat close, it won't matter. you'll get there by just improving your game as a whole, especially the fundamental shots (forget fancy flicks or whatever), not just certain aspects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

5-6 points per game and never taking a set is not a level difference...that's like 5 levels difference

no strategy or tactics will change anything and turn 5-6 points into winning games when the difference is that big, it is probably more productive to work on all your skills rather than trying to target this particular player and some arbitrary goal for points won per game. him being that much better of a player means he will just take this new strategy and just adjust and do what he was doing before which is winning comfortably.

I did have two games where I got 9 and 8 points which felt close, but those were balanced out by the 3,4 point games haha... I think if I somehow exploited the LPs a bit more I could probably win a set against him

Hmm I don't expect to win against him soon, but I want to close the gap. Playing against him is good for me as it is highly demanding and forces me to lift my game, and exposes holes in my own game, and gives me ideas on how to improve. I've actually had much better results against other players since I started playing with him occasionally. 

if he is beating you every single game and you are averaging 5-6 a game, then taking 8 to 9 here or there really means nothing, sorry it's not close. when i play people far below my level, one game could be 11-2, one game could be 11-9, and it makes no difference to me because i know i will win 3-0 anyways, so you let up or lack motivation. it has nothing to do with what tactical changes the lower player made, when the gap is that big. 

playing any better player exposes holes and forces you to lift your game. when you improve in general just by your regular training, then you will get closer to beating that player. when you start to take games consistently, then maybe tactics will start to matter. but until the gap is somewhat close, it won't matter. you'll get there by just improving your game as a whole, especially the fundamental shots (forget fancy flicks or whatever), not just certain aspects.

Idk everyone has a different style, my new flicks have made my level quite a bit higher (haven't tested it yet against him, but against other opponents), you seem to be underestimating the power of deceptive receives. It's probably added around 2 points to my game. Against weaker opponents the improvement is probably like 4 points, I was just winning with the receive directly rather than having to play another shot (4th ball attack).

But I agree with improving fundamentals. For me the true bottleneck is footwork and recovery, because I have quite strong loops, just can't get into good positions to loop often. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 5:28am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

5-6 points per game and never taking a set is not a level difference...that's like 5 levels difference

no strategy or tactics will change anything and turn 5-6 points into winning games when the difference is that big, it is probably more productive to work on all your skills rather than trying to target this particular player and some arbitrary goal for points won per game. him being that much better of a player means he will just take this new strategy and just adjust and do what he was doing before which is winning comfortably.

I did have two games where I got 9 and 8 points which felt close, but those were balanced out by the 3,4 point games haha... I think if I somehow exploited the LPs a bit more I could probably win a set against him

Hmm I don't expect to win against him soon, but I want to close the gap. Playing against him is good for me as it is highly demanding and forces me to lift my game, and exposes holes in my own game, and gives me ideas on how to improve. I've actually had much better results against other players since I started playing with him occasionally. 

if he is beating you every single game and you are averaging 5-6 a game, then taking 8 to 9 here or there really means nothing, sorry it's not close. when i play people far below my level, one game could be 11-2, one game could be 11-9, and it makes no difference to me because i know i will win 3-0 anyways, so you let up or lack motivation. it has nothing to do with what tactical changes the lower player made, when the gap is that big. 

playing any better player exposes holes and forces you to lift your game. when you improve in general just by your regular training, then you will get closer to beating that player. when you start to take games consistently, then maybe tactics will start to matter. but until the gap is somewhat close, it won't matter. you'll get there by just improving your game as a whole, especially the fundamental shots (forget fancy flicks or whatever), not just certain aspects.

Idk everyone has a different style, my new flicks have made my level quite a bit higher (haven't tested it yet against him, but against other opponents), you seem to be underestimating the power of deceptive receives. It's probably added around 2 points to my game. Against weaker opponents the improvement is probably like 4 points, I was just winning with the receive directly rather than having to play another shot (4th ball attack).

But I agree with improving fundamentals. For me the true bottleneck is footwork and recovery, because I have quite strong loops, just can't get into good positions to loop often. 



Adding 2-4 points to your game is massive especially in the 2 weeks since you tried to develop this shot in matchplay.... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 6:45am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

5-6 points per game and never taking a set is not a level difference...that's like 5 levels difference

no strategy or tactics will change anything and turn 5-6 points into winning games when the difference is that big, it is probably more productive to work on all your skills rather than trying to target this particular player and some arbitrary goal for points won per game. him being that much better of a player means he will just take this new strategy and just adjust and do what he was doing before which is winning comfortably.

I did have two games where I got 9 and 8 points which felt close, but those were balanced out by the 3,4 point games haha... I think if I somehow exploited the LPs a bit more I could probably win a set against him

Hmm I don't expect to win against him soon, but I want to close the gap. Playing against him is good for me as it is highly demanding and forces me to lift my game, and exposes holes in my own game, and gives me ideas on how to improve. I've actually had much better results against other players since I started playing with him occasionally. 

if he is beating you every single game and you are averaging 5-6 a game, then taking 8 to 9 here or there really means nothing, sorry it's not close. when i play people far below my level, one game could be 11-2, one game could be 11-9, and it makes no difference to me because i know i will win 3-0 anyways, so you let up or lack motivation. it has nothing to do with what tactical changes the lower player made, when the gap is that big. 

playing any better player exposes holes and forces you to lift your game. when you improve in general just by your regular training, then you will get closer to beating that player. when you start to take games consistently, then maybe tactics will start to matter. but until the gap is somewhat close, it won't matter. you'll get there by just improving your game as a whole, especially the fundamental shots (forget fancy flicks or whatever), not just certain aspects.

Idk everyone has a different style, my new flicks have made my level quite a bit higher (haven't tested it yet against him, but against other opponents), you seem to be underestimating the power of deceptive receives. It's probably added around 2 points to my game. Against weaker opponents the improvement is probably like 4 points, I was just winning with the receive directly rather than having to play another shot (4th ball attack).

But I agree with improving fundamentals. For me the true bottleneck is footwork and recovery, because I have quite strong loops, just can't get into good positions to loop often. 



Adding 2-4 points to your game is massive especially in the 2 weeks since you tried to develop this shot in matchplay.... 

To be fair, I'm a fast learner and I played quite a bit ;)

Yeah I was surprised at how well they worked haha... But honestly it's just coz my opponents haven't got used to them, and was going "wtf is this shit" mode. It's gonna decrease in effectiveness once they see it more often. 

But then, by that time they'll have to deal with all the different receives combined (pushflick short, pushflick long, strawberry, chiquita, windshield wiper flick), will see how they adjust to each one LOL. I used to push a lot and then try to defend the incoming attack - am now realising that flicks are just better than pushes in general, because you simply attack first to put your opponent on the defensive, and you're already in a more favourable position. 

I still think it's gonna be more in the 2 points range when it's all fully incorporated into my game and my opponents get used to it. 


Edited by blahness - 12/27/2020 at 7:17am
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It's great and totally amazing you can bring that much of a level up after jsut 2 weeks. At the top end that's almost a 50% increase in your level. Amazing increase and in match play outstanding.

How many hours a day are you playing btw? Robot or actual practice partner/ matches.

Cracking result to level up so quickly and with such a profound result.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 7:31am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

It's great and totally amazing you can bring that much of a level up after jsut 2 weeks. At the top end that's almost a 50% increase in your level. Amazing increase and in match play outstanding.

How many hours a day are you playing btw? Robot or actual practice partner/ matches.

Cracking result to level up so quickly and with such a profound result.
Nah it's not a 4 point improvement against better players lol, more like 1-2, they aren't that easily tricked and adjust quite quickly haha. But the flick gets me in much better positions compared to the push. Long pushes against good players just invite an ultra spinny opening loop which is a nightmare to deal with, and if you just block they are just gonna keep coming at you - it's just a very bad position to be in and the percentages just aren't in my favour. 

I've been doing doing 3-4 hrs every second day or so...I practice with actual people and do quite a bit of multiball which is super effective in learning stuff. We do highly targeted serve/receive drills, very few of the topspin to topspin countering. I've been working on other stuff too, the BH fade topspin down the line to complement my normal BH sidespinny counter, the Harimoto style off the bounce BH loop off various long serves/pushes which is very interesting (I find it significantly more effective compared to waiting it out, but it's very much a work in progress). I've also been working on smoother BH to FH transitions, and footwork practice to start chasing the ball with the legs much more effectively. 


Edited by blahness - 12/27/2020 at 7:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 7:45am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

It's great and totally amazing you can bring that much of a level up after jsut 2 weeks. At the top end that's almost a 50% increase in your level. Amazing increase and in match play outstanding.

How many hours a day are you playing btw? Robot or actual practice partner/ matches.

Cracking result to level up so quickly and with such a profound result.
Nah it's not a 4 point improvement against better players lol, more like 1-2, they aren't that easily tricked and adjust quite quickly haha. But the flick gets me in much better positions compared to the push. 

I've been doing doing 3-4 hrs every second day or so...I practice with actual people and do quite a bit of multiball which is super effective in learning stuff. We do highly targeted serve/receive drills, very few of the topspin to topspin countering. I've been working on other stuff too, the BH fade topspin down the line to complement my normal BH sidespinny counter, the Harimoto style off the bounce BH loop off various long serves/pushes which is very interesting (I find it significantly more effective compared to waiting it out, but it's very much a work in progress). I've also been working on smoother BH to FH transitions, and footwork practice to start chasing the ball with the legs much more effectively. 


1-2 points a game is massive seriously against good quality strong players. That's enough to take you up in the rankings by a pretty large amount I would think?. Say top 50/100 players now?.

Been getting about 4-6 hours a week myself since out lockdown was relaxed Big smile and now it's been put back that's it until we are back in the normal ish world again. Cry..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 8:07am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

It's great and totally amazing you can bring that much of a level up after jsut 2 weeks. At the top end that's almost a 50% increase in your level. Amazing increase and in match play outstanding.

How many hours a day are you playing btw? Robot or actual practice partner/ matches.

Cracking result to level up so quickly and with such a profound result.
Nah it's not a 4 point improvement against better players lol, more like 1-2, they aren't that easily tricked and adjust quite quickly haha. But the flick gets me in much better positions compared to the push. 

I've been doing doing 3-4 hrs every second day or so...I practice with actual people and do quite a bit of multiball which is super effective in learning stuff. We do highly targeted serve/receive drills, very few of the topspin to topspin countering. I've been working on other stuff too, the BH fade topspin down the line to complement my normal BH sidespinny counter, the Harimoto style off the bounce BH loop off various long serves/pushes which is very interesting (I find it significantly more effective compared to waiting it out, but it's very much a work in progress). I've also been working on smoother BH to FH transitions, and footwork practice to start chasing the ball with the legs much more effectively. 


1-2 points a game is massive seriously against good quality strong players. That's enough to take you up in the rankings by a pretty large amount I would think?. Say top 50/100 players now?.

Been getting about 4-6 hours a week myself since out lockdown was relaxed Big smile and now it's been put back that's it until we are back in the normal ish world again. Cry..



Yeah the UK situation seems a bit dire :( hopefully it'll get better in the weeks to come...
 
1-2 points is quite significant. It also makes me beat weaker players much easier than in the past. Some people in my circle view these as cheap tricks, but hey whatever works works right haha.... I've always been more of a trickster anyway. 

I'm not into league play due to my irregular work schedule, so wouldn't know my ranking... My enjoyment in table tennis comes from learning new things and improving :)

The penholder with LP guy in this thread I believe has won a few competitions in the state. Haha it's gonna be fun trying to chase up to him. I would love to one day play at his level.... He's actually the one who taught me the importance of the usage of the entire body on short ball strokes (pushes, flicks), and that I was looping in bad positions due to bad footwork. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

5-6 points per game and never taking a set is not a level difference...that's like 5 levels difference

no strategy or tactics will change anything and turn 5-6 points into winning games when the difference is that big, it is probably more productive to work on all your skills rather than trying to target this particular player and some arbitrary goal for points won per game. him being that much better of a player means he will just take this new strategy and just adjust and do what he was doing before which is winning comfortably.
ya, you are right. However, that guy used LP. So, I give him benefit of the doubt. I asked him to play a looping game with him. If he cannot beat him with that, he should forget about it. No tacitcs can help him Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2020 at 1:03am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

5-6 points per game and never taking a set is not a level difference...that's like 5 levels difference

no strategy or tactics will change anything and turn 5-6 points into winning games when the difference is that big, it is probably more productive to work on all your skills rather than trying to target this particular player and some arbitrary goal for points won per game. him being that much better of a player means he will just take this new strategy and just adjust and do what he was doing before which is winning comfortably.
ya, you are right. However, that guy used LP. So, I give him benefit of the doubt. I asked him to play a looping game with him. If he cannot beat him with that, he should forget about it. No tacitcs can help him Wink

Yeah I usually won the points where I did a quality loop in position, the problem is actually getting there  Smile
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