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Clearing up equipment misconceptions

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Chairman Meow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Chairman Meow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:19pm
I'm about USATT 2000 and I've been using Chinese rubbers (unboosted) almost the whole time I have been playing. I don't see any real disadvantages using them over European style rubbers, which I also tried out for a period of time. There are upsides and downsides to using both.

In the end, I think a lot of the discussion about the "best equipment" and such is not as impactful as one might think. The technique and skill comes from practice. A USATT 2000 rated player who uses inverted rubber will probably play within 100 points of their level regardless of equipment, provided it isn't something drastically different like pips or antispin. At least, that is my experience from playing against partners experimenting with different equipment, and trying things out myself. Improving one's level can also be done with any equipment. There's no right or wrong way to play, since everyone has a different style. It is very feasible to be 2400 or even better with any blade/rubbers. Everyone has something different that works well for them.

If one is trying to be a top player, there are definitely certain styles and setups that will yield faster improvement and a higher ceiling. But in that case, the player would be listening to their (hopefully experienced) coach and higher rated players they know in person, rather than people on the internet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:


Jonathan Groth is the only one at the top level currently and I do not think he has made a trend with this.

With the celluloid ball the range of spin was wider than today therefore it made the opponent think and judge the situation more. Had the the plastic ball been in use, Joo Se Hyuk would not have got a silver medal at the Worlds.

Regarding those blades, my understanding is that the most popular option is still the plain ALC version and a lot fewer use ZLC or SZLC even at the top level.

For mere mortals like us here - and this is my main point - there is not much need for composite blades, and especially not in the USD 350-400 USD range. This is what I would like to get accross to as many people as possible.



well first you said there is not a single one, now you are talking about a trend. the trend is that many top players changed to and have stuck with faster blades after the plastic ball change. ZLC and super ZLC is very popular now with top pros and second tier pros. ALC is still very popular too. 

this doesn't mean a beginner or intermediate player needs a super zlc zhang jike, but you aren't really defending your point very well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:

[QUOTE=Tt Gold]
The coaches I know (euro background) never give Chinese rubbers to complete beginner kids and there is a reason for that. My point is that Chinese rubbers should not be the first option. Proper movement, reading of spin, positioning, muscles should be the first thing to pick up.

However, after they have reached a good technical level and then decide to switch to Chinese, I am perfectly okay with that. I agree with you that they can be very good players.

what's that reason? why can't movement/reading of spin/positioning/muscles be learned with Chinese rubber?

These are euro coaches. Do you know of any place in Europe where the coach starts out by giving the kids a pair of commercial H3? I do not think it is standard practice here.
H3 is too expensive for starters and too stiff.
I know the places where they give them boosted Mercury 2 instead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:

[QUOTE=Tt Gold]
The coaches I know (euro background) never give Chinese rubbers to complete beginner kids and there is a reason for that. My point is that Chinese rubbers should not be the first option. Proper movement, reading of spin, positioning, muscles should be the first thing to pick up.

However, after they have reached a good technical level and then decide to switch to Chinese, I am perfectly okay with that. I agree with you that they can be very good players.

what's that reason? why can't movement/reading of spin/positioning/muscles be learned with Chinese rubber?

These are euro coaches. Do you know of any place in Europe where the coach starts out by giving the kids a pair of commercial H3? I do not think it is standard practice here.
H3 is too expensive for starters and too stiff.
I know the places where they give them boosted Mercury 2 instead.

which is still chinese rubber LOL

it's like saying "do you know anywhere they give beginning students tenergy 05 or MXS hard? no? then no beginners should use euro/japanese rubbers" LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:27pm
...

Edited by Valiantsin - 12/26/2020 at 9:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 8:39pm
This is the worst topic I´ve read in this forum in many years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by Chairman Meow Chairman Meow wrote:

I'm about USATT 2000 and I've been using Chinese rubbers (unboosted) almost the whole time I have been playing. I don't see any real disadvantages using them over European style rubbers, which I also tried out for a period of time. There are upsides and downsides to using both.

In the end, I think a lot of the discussion about the "best equipment" and such is not as impactful as one might think. The technique and skill comes from practice. A USATT 2000 rated player who uses inverted rubber will probably play within 100 points of their level regardless of equipment, provided it isn't something drastically different like pips or antispin. At least, that is my experience from playing against partners experimenting with different equipment, and trying things out myself. Improving one's level can also be done with any equipment. There's no right or wrong way to play, since everyone has a different style. It is very feasible to be 2400 or even better with any blade/rubbers. Everyone has something different that works well for them.

If one is trying to be a top player, there are definitely certain styles and setups that will yield faster improvement and a higher ceiling. But in that case, the player would be listening to their (hopefully experienced) coach and higher rated players they know in person, rather than people on the internet.
I’ve recently used my hurricane 2 rubbers (unboosted) that’s had been laying around for 10 years or so. Reason was that I had one of them on my old viscaria to feed multiball and played a few shots with it. I thought I might give it a try, since I got most of the requirements down (decent technique, footwork and fitness). I knew that H2 would make service/recieve so much easier and having played a few forehands with it (they were not much slower than with euro rubbers) I thought I’d give them a try in the next session. The only downside, which I already had in mind, was that hurricane performs well when in good position, but in match situations good position can be hard to achieve. Turned out exactly as expected. Training went well, but in match play it was much worse then with euro rubbers. 

I think this is something that everyone should keep in mind when contemplating about wether they should use hurricane rubbers or euro rubbers. Even if you manage to play awesome in regular training, it doesn’t mean anything if you play much worse in matches when you don’t know where the ball is going.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by Chairman Meow Chairman Meow wrote:

I'm about USATT 2000 and I've been using Chinese rubbers (unboosted) almost the whole time I have been playing. I don't see any real disadvantages using them over European style rubbers, which I also tried out for a period of time. There are upsides and downsides to using both.

In the end, I think a lot of the discussion about the "best equipment" and such is not as impactful as one might think. The technique and skill comes from practice. A USATT 2000 rated player who uses inverted rubber will probably play within 100 points of their level regardless of equipment, provided it isn't something drastically different like pips or antispin. At least, that is my experience from playing against partners experimenting with different equipment, and trying things out myself. Improving one's level can also be done with any equipment. There's no right or wrong way to play, since everyone has a different style. It is very feasible to be 2400 or even better with any blade/rubbers. Everyone has something different that works well for them.

If one is trying to be a top player, there are definitely certain styles and setups that will yield faster improvement and a higher ceiling. But in that case, the player would be listening to their (hopefully experienced) coach and higher rated players they know in person, rather than people on the internet.
I’ve recently used my hurricane 2 rubbers (unboosted) that’s had been laying around for 10 years or so. Reason was that I had one of them on my old viscaria to feed multiball and played a few shots with it. I thought I might give it a try, since I got most of the requirements down (decent technique, footwork and fitness). I knew that H2 would make service/recieve so much easier and having played a few forehands with it (they were not much slower than with euro rubbers) I thought I’d give them a try in the next session. The only downside, which I already had in mind, was that hurricane performs well when in good position, but in match situations good position can be hard to achieve. Turned out exactly as expected. Training went well, but in match play it was much worse then with euro rubbers. 

I think this is something that everyone should keep in mind when contemplating about wether they should use hurricane rubbers or euro rubbers. Even if you manage to play awesome in regular training, it doesn’t mean anything if you play much worse in matches when you don’t know where the ball is going.

Hurricanes have to be boosted basically, otherwise it plays like a brick. If you don't boost you should get a softer sponge like 38, 39 deg.... 
-------
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chairman Meow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Hurricanes have to be boosted basically, otherwise it plays like a brick. If you don't boost you should get a softer sponge like 38, 39 deg.... 

I know I'm an outlier, but I quite like unboosted H3 (41 deg on forehand, 37 backhand). I used some Xiom rubber a while ago and later Rasanter for 6 months, but it didn't work out for me. I did sacrifice some speed by going back to H3, but I can swing hard enough to make it work. I do agree with Tt Gold though; Euro rubbers are more forgiving when out of position. But as someone who has used H3 almost the whole time I've been playing, there are a lot of things you can do once you have gotten used to them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by Chairman Meow Chairman Meow wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Hurricanes have to be boosted basically, otherwise it plays like a brick. If you don't boost you should get a softer sponge like 38, 39 deg.... 

I know I'm an outlier, but I quite like unboosted H3 (41 deg on forehand, 37 backhand). I used some Xiom rubber a while ago and later Rasanter for 6 months, but it didn't work out for me. I did sacrifice some speed by going back to H3, but I can swing hard enough to make it work. I do agree with Tt Gold though; Euro rubbers are more forgiving when out of position. But as someone who has used H3 almost the whole time I've been playing, there are a lot of things you can do once you have gotten used to them.

Hmm yes I agree, there's serves and receives and some crazy 3rd balls that wouldn't land with Euro rubbers simply because the Hurricanes have very high spin to speed ratios. Have you tried Dignics 09c? For me it offers me the best of both worlds, it's as spinny and controllable in the close table game, but away from the table when I engage the spring sponge it is fast like a tensor rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chairman Meow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2020 at 11:37pm
Unfortunately, no. I'm far too cheap to ever buy it, unless it'll last me over a year of consistent play. I hope to try it one day though if someone at my club ends up getting it. I do use Hurricane on a relatively fast blade, so I've never had issues with power away from the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 12:25am
First off, thank you Hans, for an excellent summary of ideas. I know that I fell victim to "Chinese Forehand Rubber" early on, and have personally relied on tacky topsheet/hard sponge, murderous short game and attacking inside the table to cover up a lot of my games shortcomings (footwork, prediction, consistency).

Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:



Q9: Is Primorac Carbon / Schlager Carbon any good?
A9: They are from a bygone epoch where the ball was slower and people used VOC glue. Nowadays these blades are 1. too stiff 2. difficult to move around close to the table, which has become more important since the change to the plastic ball. In that era they played further from the table and the focus was a bit more on spin than speed and placement.


This answer looks incomplete.

If the player uses Short or Medium pips, at an intermediate level, it would seem that the Schlager Carbon is an excellent blade. The blade's construction reduces incoming service strength on receive, and allows the user to much more easily hit through the limited spin on the plastic balls. This is when compared to woodier and slower inner carbon blades like the classic Stiga Super Carbon.

TL;DR
Schlager Carbon ignores opponent spin strength and variation.


Edited by icontek - 12/27/2020 at 1:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Regenkurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 3:36am
@idk: I see no point in discussing the Primorac Carbon further unless 30-40 players in the world's top 100 start using it.

As for Chinese vs euro: my view is that it is better to traverse a learning curve that consists of transitions from ESN 38/40 degree to 45 and then 50 or some Chinese rubber for the FH in the very end. This will highlight problems with technique and will force learners to hone their technique the end result of which will be a player who can handle a Chinese rubber if they still find it fit.

Taking the Chinese route contains a hidden trap and this is especially true of you have no coach. I see many people fall into this. At the lower levels they give a false illusion of easier service return and more sense of achievement on loops when playing people of a similarly low level. However, people who take this route will have flaws in their game that will become evident as they go higher. And I am not talking about Chinese ex-pros, only about people who want to develop a technically sound looping game.

@Chairman Meow: As I see, USATT 2000 is the rating where the problem of Chinese vs euro is not so acute YET. You can play an effective game in terms of success ratio without being forced to have really well elaborated attacking strokes and the footwork and other elements that go along with that. I think problems start coming if you decide to take things further.

May I ask what style you play?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Regenkurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 5:09am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

All the rest is IMHO.

Rubbers

Q1: I need an alternative for Butterfly anything (Tenergy series, Dignics series)
A1: There is no alternative, Butterfly still produces the  best rubbers.

A1.2: There are still good rubbers like mx-p (most close series), fastarc-g1, etc which is pretty good replacement.


Q2: Should I use Chinese rubber?
A2: Nobody who is a beginner or even intermediate should ever use Chinese rubbers if they want to become a technically complete player.

A2.2: In China there are plenty of good players who mastered their technique with Chinese rubbers.

Q3: I want to use Chinese rubber on my FH.
A3: You should only switch to Chinese rubbers when your technique and footwork is so advanced that you can play with the same good results. Otherwise stay away from them.

A3.2. It’s a bit vice-versa – until you do not use properly your whole body – your strokes will have poor quality and it makes you improve your footwork because of that rubbers. While European rubber feels better and produce spin easier – master that spin more difficult with such a rubber.

Q4: I want to use Chinese rubber on my backhand.
A4: There is no point in doing that if your aim is to have good technique and develop proper strokes.

A4.2. Agree but with one addition – depending on playstyle and money you have.

Q5: I want to switch to Chinese rubbers because they are spinnier.
A5: They are not spinnier in a way that will take your game to the next level. Forget them.

A5.2. They have different physics approach of applying the rotation on the ball and depending of type of stroke depends amount of spin.

Q6: I want to use Chinese rubbers because they are not so springy as euro rubbers.
A6: You probably need to improve your stamina, anticipation and footwork. Do not use Chinese rubbers as a crutch / pretext.

A6.2 But it’s just a trade-off – spin with lack of speed in Chinese rubbers (when not boosted) – comparatively to spin with speed in Euro. On serves and short game it’s an advantage.


Q8: Should I use max as a beginner?
A8: Yes, you should use max right from the start.
A8.2 Many would argue - I will not
😊 have similar opinion.


Q9: Defensive rubber thickness (1.0, 1.3, 1.6) on the FH. What should I choose?
A9: The plastic ball has rendered thin rubbers obsolete. If you want to play properly and effectively, use 2.0 or max on your FH.
A9.2 For defenders – still work well and depends on particular person.


Q11: What about Nittaku Fastarc P1 / C1 / G1?
A11: They are about the same league as Acuda S1 / S2. There are more advanced German rubbers today. They lack the punch that others have.

A11.2 There are different rubbers – would not say they are more advanced.

Q12: What would be some good beginner / intermediate rubbers in 2020?
A12: Nittaku Fastarc series, Donic Bluestorm Z2, Z3, Andro Rasanter series 37, 42, Joola Rhyzer 42 / 45


Q13: What would be some good intermediate rubbers in 2020?
A13: XIOM Omega V line, XIOM Omega VII line, Donic Bluestorm Z1, Andro Rasanter 47 / 50, Joola Rhyzer 48
A12.2-13.2 Here is a point where can be whole new discussion
😊


Q14: What would be some good advanced rubbers if I have got a lot of money?
A14: If money does not count for you: anything from Butterfly: Tenergy or Dignics.

A14.2 When you are not really master and depending on playstyle – there are many other rubbers – also whole new discussion 😊

Q15: What would be some good advanced rubbers if I have NOT got a lot of money?
A15: If you do not have so much money: the second choice after Butterfly is Tibhar MXS, the third is MXP. Their pricing is the most sane on the market. Andro Rasanter 47 /  50 could be good too, or Joola Dynaryz AGR but again, they are more expensive. Also, XIOM Omega V Pro / Euro, Omega VII series.

A15.2 Here is a point where can be whole new discussion 😊

Q16: Should I use booster?
A16: In brief, yes you should. Modern rubbers come factory tuned and it dissipates after 3-4 weeks. You need to refill a little so the covering does not lose the elasticity it originally had. This leads to the question: "I need a blade that is spinny and fast at the same time.". Boosting is the answer, not buying a million blades.

A16.2 Agree 😊

I would like to repeat again that nobody should ever use Chinese rubbers unless they are on a level where: they could play in the first or second league of their country. It is essential that you forget Chinese rubbers until you are on a level where you can beat the same people with Chinese that you normally beat with Euro and even the proportion of your victory is the same.

A.A😊 Just a question why? And what to do with all Chinese guys who do use that rubber prior to be in 1-2 league in the country?

In any other case, people who choose Chinese want to cover up for a weakness that only proper training can fix and the use of Chinese just deteriorates. The coaches that I know NEVER recommend Chinese rubber to anybody EVER.
A.A.2 I see trade-off – not an advantage. Before proper level pips can give advantage. But after that – it’s nightmare to gain profit from LP


Blades


Q1. What is a good beginner blade at a reasonable price?
A1:

1. Xiom Offensive S
2. Stiga Allround Evolution
3. Stiga Offensive Classic
4. Yasaka Sweden Extra
5. Donic Appelgren Allplay

A1.2 And 1000+ others 😊



Q4: When should I change from 7 ply blades to ALC?
A4: If you train every day OR at some point in your life, you used to train 15-20 hours a week for an extended period and now you are planning to play at top-level.
A4.2 If you are not good – does not matter if it gives you fun, if you are good – it does not matter  as you already know how to use such a blade.


Q5: I am playing with an ALL+ blade and I feel I need a faster blade.
A5: See Q1

A5.2 Hm – he already plays with ALL why he needs for example “Stiga Allround Evolutionfrom the list?

Q6: I am thinking about switching to ALC, is it time for me to make the change?
A6: Taking an ALC blade in your hand will not make you a better player, let alone faster. You should only change if you have been playing 15 hours a week for the past 7-8 years.
A6.2 Strange – look at A4.2
😊

Q7: I find Viscaria / Boll ALC slow. Is there a point in trying Primorac Carbon / Schlager Carbon
A7: There is a 99.9% chance that your level is low. Not even WR top 100 players need something faster than a Viscaria / Boll ALC. Be humble and train a lot.

A7.2 Really depends on strategy vs player own opponents – there can be cases when you have no stamina to go into rally – but can still win with one hit. Why not?

Q8: I find my Boll ALC / Viscaria slow and I want to try ZLC.
A8: Be humble and look at Q7.

A8.2 look at A7.2

Q9: Is Primorac Carbon / Schlager Carbon any good?
A9: They are from a bygone epoch where the ball was slower and people used VOC glue. Nowadays these blades are 1. too stiff 2. difficult to move around close to the table, which has become more important since the change to the plastic ball. In that era they played further from the table and the focus was a bit more on spin than speed and placement.
A9.2 they are good and top players still use them (at least PC)


Q10: What is the alternative to Butterfly ALC / ZLC?
A10: There is none. Butterfly makes the best composite blades and unfortunately, they charge a lot for them.

A10.2 Butterfly has good blades but it depends  on personal preferences. For example I like Feel ZX1 more than Viscaria Light, Mazunov, TB ALC, JSH which I have (last one actually for defense 😊 )



A lot of interesting remarks and observations Thumbs Up

As for Chinese rubbers, I am against them because they give a false sense of progress at lower levels, especially when someone does not have access to / cannot afford formal coaching. Therefore I am a proponent of sh*ting to Chinese from strong intermediate levels up if someone feels the need but never before.

Could you share your opinion on the viability of thin defensive rubbers in the plastic ball era?

As for beginner blades, I know there are more but I wanted to narrow down the range to a bare minimum that will not make you go skint while giving good value at the same time.

Regarding your comment on Q4:

A4.2 If you are not good – does not matter if it gives you fun, if you are good – it does not matter  as you already know how to use such a blade.

I started out by emphasising that if someone enjoys trying out new equipment, my comments are not so relevant. I agree with you completely about the fun part. It is the illusion that playing with a very fast blade will result in a huge leap in 2 weeks that I want to eliminate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 5:46am
Which booster is recommended as an intro to boosting ESN rubbers like FastArc G1? All I want is to prolong that new rubber feeling after a month or so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chairman Meow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 11:06am
Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:

May I ask what style you play?

I play an attacking style, but a bit of all-round as well, depending on the situation. I did get coached for a few years, so I would say my strokes and footwork are decent. Not perfect, but I move fast enough and keep my position. I just don't see how Chinese rubbers "cover up" for weaknesses in these areas. They aren't magic. If you have bad footwork and strokes, you will suffer in the same areas with both European and Chinese rubbers. If anything, I've found European rubbers to be more forgiving of bad positioning and strokes. Some players I know have switched from Chinese to European because they found it easier to play with without needing substantial improvements in form. I haven't seen the reverse happen.

As I've said before, I have played with Chinese rubber for a long time. Many of the players I know are from China and started out with Chinese rubber. Many of them have great footwork and strokes. So if someone is using Chinese rubber, they have a lot of solid players to learn from. I don't see the trend of players with Chinese rubber having significant weaknesses in their game compared to those using European rubber, at least where I live. They certainly require slightly different strokes, but I don't see them hindering players' fundamentals unless they are trying to use a Chinese rubber with a European style stroke, which is rare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 12:20pm
thank you for the nice reading all along chairman meow, you are such the kind club player who knows where he is coming from, is and where he's going, taking the game seriously while never taking himself so. I like to surround myself with people like you at the club, they provide a safe spirited infrastructure on which we may play the game best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2020 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:

@idk: I see no point in discussing the Primorac Carbon further unless 30-40 players in the world's top 100 start using it.

As for Chinese vs euro: my view is that it is better to traverse a learning curve that consists of transitions from ESN 38/40 degree to 45 and then 50 or some Chinese rubber for the FH in the very end. This will highlight problems with technique and will force learners to hone their technique the end result of which will be a player who can handle a Chinese rubber if they still find it fit.

Taking the Chinese route contains a hidden trap and this is especially true of you have no coach. I see many people fall into this. At the lower levels they give a false illusion of easier service return and more sense of achievement on loops when playing people of a similarly low level. However, people who take this route will have flaws in their game that will become evident as they go higher. And I am not talking about Chinese ex-pros, only about people who want to develop a technically sound looping game.

@Chairman Meow: As I see, USATT 2000 is the rating where the problem of Chinese vs euro is not so acute YET. You can play an effective game in terms of success ratio without being forced to have really well elaborated attacking strokes and the footwork and other elements that go along with that. I think problems start coming if you decide to take things further.

May I ask what style you play?

you said there was "not one single top player" that was using primorac carbon and i pointed out Groth is using it, that's all. never said anything about 30-40 players using it. there are also not anything close to 30-40 top 100 players using all wood but you recommend that. 

but there are 30-40 (actually, almost all) top players who upgraded their blades to faster and stiffer blades to compensate for the new ball. that contradicts your statement that top players need nothing faster than a viscaria/boll ALC or that there is some "bygone epoch" of players requiring stiff blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hans Regenkurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2020 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Which booster is recommended as an intro to boosting ESN rubbers like FastArc G1? All I want is to prolong that new rubber feeling after a month or so.


A teammate of mine tried Falco Long on his Fastarc P1. It made the rubber softer.

What me and my fellow players have tried and works is:

1. Falco Long - the effect lasts about 2-3 months, you only need to put one layer
2. The other Falco which lasts about one month, it gives you more feel than Falco Long
3. Revo Booster, some say it lasts for months, others mention bout 2 months. It gives good feel but I have heard from several people that the booster somehow evaporates from the bottle and they end up with a lot less in a very short time.
4. TRF booster, it lasts 3-4 weeks, perhaps it is more aggressive than the above

My vote goes to Falco Long. The Fastarc sponge may not be the best subject for boosting. We usually boost MXP, MXS, Bluestorm Z1-Z2 and it works well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2020 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by Chairman Meow Chairman Meow wrote:

Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:

May I ask what style you play?

I play an attacking style, but a bit of all-round as well, depending on the situation. I did get coached for a few years, so I would say my strokes and footwork are decent. Not perfect, but I move fast enough and keep my position. I just don't see how Chinese rubbers "cover up" for weaknesses in these areas. They aren't magic. If you have bad footwork and strokes, you will suffer in the same areas with both European and Chinese rubbers. If anything, I've found European rubbers to be more forgiving of bad positioning and strokes. Some players I know have switched from Chinese to European because they found it easier to play with without needing substantial improvements in form. I haven't seen the reverse happen.

As I've said before, I have played with Chinese rubber for a long time. Many of the players I know are from China and started out with Chinese rubber. Many of them have great footwork and strokes. So if someone is using Chinese rubber, they have a lot of solid players to learn from. I don't see the trend of players with Chinese rubber having significant weaknesses in their game compared to those using European rubber, at least where I live. They certainly require slightly different strokes, but I don't see them hindering players' fundamentals unless they are trying to use a Chinese rubber with a European style stroke, which is rare.
+1
Chinese rubbers forces you to use your body properly, otherwise there's just no chance in hell you're gonna produce a strong powerloop. Whereas a lot of players using Euro rubbers just rely on the rubber's speed and never learnt to throw their body weight into the ball. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rollko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2020 at 5:55pm
Is there a better alternative to boosting/using fresh rubbers, if a faster blade, as you guys say, is not a good idea? Because ALC with an unboosted worn out T05 is just slow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/29/2020 at 6:29am
Originally posted by Rollko Rollko wrote:

Is there a better alternative to boosting/using fresh rubbers, if a faster blade, as you guys say, is not a good idea? Because ALC with an unboosted worn out T05 is just slow.
There’s still the option to just work on your technique and shot quality. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/01/2021 at 11:20am
I have enjoyed this thread. 

One more thing I want to mention. I do not boost. I do LIKE the feeling of freshly glued/attached rubber using rubber cement, but I cannot bring my self to boost (ie my blades and rubbers are attached months before I go to a tournament). I cannot believe that my opponents (1500-2000 USATT) at tournaments are boosting and even if they are I just can't do it. I would rather lose than do something that is clearly against the rules. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/01/2021 at 11:38am
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I have enjoyed this thread. 

One more thing I want to mention. I do not boost. I do LIKE the feeling of freshly glued/attached rubber using rubber cement, but I cannot bring my self to boost (ie my blades and rubbers are attached months before I go to a tournament). I cannot believe that my opponents (1500-2000 USATT) at tournaments are boosting and even if they are I just can't do it. I would rather lose than do something that is clearly against the rules. 

I'm not sure it helps anyway in that range
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/01/2021 at 11:59am
Go Low-VOC for health . . . Zero would be better, but even DHS says, "No smell rubbers. Bad for health."

Edited by tommyzai - 01/01/2021 at 12:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/02/2021 at 10:37am
I wrote a long post about this topic at TTD a couple of days ago.  It has given rise to a lot of discussion. 


The gist is that Chairman Meow has figured out something pretty important.  Using the same setup for a long time alliws your motor systems to learned subconsciously how best to use it.

And a lot of marketing and EJ threads make claims unsupported by any evidence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/02/2021 at 10:40am

Here is the last post I made on that TTD thread.

Manufacturers make a huge variety of subtly different kinds of rubber and blades all designed for pretty much the same kind of player. Then they, along with "experts" on forums, convince people that there is some sort of super secret rocket science (accumulated by "experience") by which every aspect of a player's technique (or technical limitations) can be perfectly matched to this finely tuned equipment. You just need to try all their stuff until you find the right COMBINATION and ONLY THEN can you reach your "full potential"; but then they will introduce a new version with 1 degree harder sponge.....

Reality is that after a period for your brain to get used to the new thing, rubber or blade, you play like you play. Yiur motor systems will adjust to this new setup. Then you will be you. Again. Switching from ALC to ZLC will have zero impact on your level.

But, let's assume it does, a little? It is after all possible and sometimes does happen. Rarely. How would you know? Objective (quantitative) measures of your overall level take a long time to accumulate.

Be skeptical!! (Also, as Brs noted, the equipment choicess that actually do have a lasting impact entail tradeoffs!!).


Edited by Baal - 01/02/2021 at 10:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2021 at 2:40am
If you want to improve a playing level, changing equipment will rarely help.  You just need to practice more. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2021 at 9:13am
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

If you want to improve a playing level, changing equipment will rarely help.  You just need to practice more. 

+1, most of my leaps in level came from new understanding of technique and tactics and specific training (hint: endless FH to FH topspins does nothing to your game). I have actually tested changing setups (ie just used my partner's rackets ) and it didn't do squat to my playing level lol...as long as it's a reasonably modern setup it's gonna work fine. It's pretty much just some blade angle adjustments. You'll never cover for technique deficiencies using equipment. 

But I would say that it's important to get some reasonable equipment which is not overly fast and uncontrollable nor overly slow and dead. For eg unboosted H3 on 5 ply wood is probably way too slow for the modern game, and Primorac Carbon with T64 is probably on the other end LOL


Edited by blahness - 01/06/2021 at 9:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2021 at 10:47am
You still need to use equipment that suits your playing style.
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