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do you pivot after a BH opening loop

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    Posted: 01/06/2021 at 9:29am
I actually get this scenario quite often, after a reasonable quality BH opening loop or chiquita gets successfully blocked back to my BH. It's generally very difficult for them to go down the line because of the sidespin on the ball and also because of the quality of the shot. 

Should I train to pivot on this ball or continue using BH?

I feel like pivoting is much stronger and I can often finish the point directly, but there's the risk of being jammed or the FH pivot being blocked to the open FH (which often means losing the point lol)

But continuing to use BH would just result in 50-50 topspin rallies on the BH end which is irritating coz regardless of my shot quality it's quite difficult to outhit my well trained opponents. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2021 at 11:30am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I actually get this scenario quite often, after a reasonable quality BH opening loop or chiquita gets successfully blocked back to my BH. It's generally very difficult for them to go down the line because of the sidespin on the ball and also because of the quality of the shot. 

Should I train to pivot on this ball or continue using BH?

I feel like pivoting is much stronger and I can often finish the point directly, but there's the risk of being jammed or the FH pivot being blocked to the open FH (which often means losing the point lol)

But continuing to use BH would just result in 50-50 topspin rallies on the BH end which is irritating coz regardless of my shot quality it's quite difficult to outhit my well trained opponents. 

With my medium pimple, it is quite easy to block down the line or even hit a backhand opening loop from the opponent. Then, if he likes pivoting, he will think about it twice before doing it again.
Also, when you pivot, you'd better kill the point because all the space is open for the opponent.
To me, pivot must be used 1 or 2 times a game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2021 at 11:52am
Have you tried aiming the back opener more to their forehand side, to direct it closer to your forehand?  Even though I use long pips on the backhand, I will try directing the ball closer and closer to their forehand side or middle until I find a weaker area. This makes it easier to step around without having to move so far,  depending on what their strength is
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2021 at 11:57am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:


With my medium pimple, it is quite easy to block down the line or even hit a backhand opening loop from the opponent. Then, if he likes pivoting, he will think about it twice before doing it again.
Also, when you pivot, you'd better kill the point because all the space is open for the opponent.
To me, pivot must be used 1 or 2 times a game.
With medium is even harder to control that forehand attack from your opponent than with sandwich. 
If he really hits hard - you barely can return - not speaking about some direction changes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2021 at 12:36pm
Predictability would get you nowhere. You can't pivot all the time, neither can your opponent go BH to BH all the time, as that would  also leave his FH and middle open.

I try to pivot when I expect the ball more towards the middle. I prefer not to pivot as that leaves the FH open.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2021 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Have you tried aiming the back opener more to their forehand side, to direct it closer to your forehand?  Even though I use long pips on the backhand, I will try directing the ball closer and closer to their forehand side or middle until I find a weaker area. This makes it easier to step around without having to move so far,  depending on what their strength is

It is a lot harder to loop down the line due to the reduced distance especially on serve receive when the spin is a bit unclear. Cross-court I can produce a much stronger shot with more stability. 

But second shot is like free for all, I can do whatever I want haha... Some ideas are switching down the line with the BH aka Harimoto style, or continuing to hammer their backhand diagonal with another powerful BH, or just pivot to finish the point (Ma Long style)... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2021 at 7:39pm
I´m trying something new: open with BH (to his BH), pivot and quickly come back to neutral position.
It´s a kind of feint to make my opponent give a ball to my FH.


Edited by TT newbie - 01/06/2021 at 7:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2021 at 8:23pm
I would try to angle my chaquita wide into their BH (assuming RH vs RH) so you open up a safer down the line shot (wide FH them now). Someone fast might get there, but the quality wouldn’t be that great so you could potentially get back to your forehand if necessary and move them back to Bh. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 3:09am
A random thought... Are you quick enough to make the wide ball consistently and recover after the pivot if and when it comes back?.



Edited by ghostzen - 01/07/2021 at 3:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 3:41am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

A random thought... Are you quick enough to make the wide ball consistently and recover after the pivot if and when it comes back?.


Probably not if it comes to the wide FH, yes if it's blocked back to the middle. 

But usually I use 100% max effort in the pivot and it doesn't come back very often, the win % is significantly higher than my BH at my level once I manage to get the FH in. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 4:00am
The reason I asked was when playing better players it will come back at a higher percentage than expected. Which means you will need a plan A and B with some quality.. If that makes sense.








Edited by ghostzen - 01/07/2021 at 4:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 4:20am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

The reason I asked was when playing better players it will come back at a higher percentage than expected. Which means you will need a plan A and B with some quality. Your higher percentage winner becomes a possible hole. If that makes sense. 


Hmm against the better players I actually really struggle in the BH - BH diagonal battle (they're just way more consistent than I am), I make more points when I pivot to get the strong FH in. Maybe it's a sign that I should work a lot harder on my BH skills :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 5:06am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

The reason I asked was when playing better players it will come back at a higher percentage than expected. Which means you will need a plan A and B with some quality. Your higher percentage winner becomes a possible hole. If that makes sense. 


Hmm against the better players I actually really struggle in the BH - BH diagonal battle (they're just way more consistent than I am), I make more points when I pivot to get the strong FH in. Maybe it's a sign that I should work a lot harder on my BH skills :(


hmm all that I would mention is if you are almost hanging around to pivot for your stronger forehand to get into play you can kind of let the other player know that BH to BH they are likely stronger and when you pivot it's almost quite expected. Also most players will pin you wider BH making it harder to make a good quality forehand pivot and wait for the tell then switch down the line.

random ...but bear with me! There's a term called Kuzushi in martial arts which in basic terms meaning to break someones balance. Push or pull them one way then make you unstable then take the opening almost. With the stronger backhand you will be less off balance.

When I think of this type of thing I think Quadri Aruna a bit to be honest. Massive massive forehand but can becomes quite easy to read. that's a very very simple breakdown i totally know Smile

Think putting some quality on the backhand is a totally wise idea to be honest Thumbs UpThumbs Up. Also having a strong backhand is a massive weapon to keep you on balance and off balance the other player. That way you will complete better when you play the stronger players in your group.

Cheers


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 5:14am
Actually I just looked at the TTBL youtube and found a good example of Aruna playing.. I was actually looking for the Steger Videos at the weekend!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7yrWFeBX2Q

Have a look and see what you think and also if my point is valid from the Aruna match. He seems to get caught alot. I think it might be a bit more valid than watching Ma Long and the other top 5 or so as you and I will never ever be that quick! Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 7:22am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

The reason I asked was when playing better players it will come back at a higher percentage than expected. Which means you will need a plan A and B with some quality. Your higher percentage winner becomes a possible hole. If that makes sense. 


Hmm against the better players I actually really struggle in the BH - BH diagonal battle (they're just way more consistent than I am), I make more points when I pivot to get the strong FH in. Maybe it's a sign that I should work a lot harder on my BH skills :(


hmm all that I would mention is if you are almost hanging around to pivot for your stronger forehand to get into play you can kind of let the other player know that BH to BH they are likely stronger and when you pivot it's almost quite expected. Also most players will pin you wider BH making it harder to make a good quality forehand pivot and wait for the tell then switch down the line.

random ...but bear with me! There's a term called Kuzushi in martial arts which in basic terms meaning to break someones balance. Push or pull them one way then make you unstable then take the opening almost. With the stronger backhand you will be less off balance.

When I think of this type of thing I think Quadri Aruna a bit to be honest. Massive massive forehand but can becomes quite easy to read. that's a very very simple breakdown i totally know Smile

Think putting some quality on the backhand is a totally wise idea to be honest Thumbs UpThumbs Up. Also having a strong backhand is a massive weapon to keep you on balance and off balance the other player. That way you will complete better when you play the stronger players in your group.

Cheers



Yeah true... gotta work harder on that backhand. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 7:39am
It will make you more of a complete player Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 10:23am
The answer is always - it depends on the opponent.  If an opponent can't control your forehand, then there is no reason for him to see your backhand.  But if an opponent can bring back your forehand, then you need to rally to get a better shot.

But it is always better to be able to introduce your best weapon earlier and earlier in the point if it is scoring than to save it for a shot in the point that may never come.  
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 11:08am
Agree the knockout blow is best NL if it's that end of rally winnner Thumbs Up. Most of TT is played with not many actual rally points. Why extend the point any longer than needed 100% with you on that. Also when you get a bit older running around and playing forehands isn't a goer all the time. The bones don't like it!

My thinking was when trying to step up levels which Blah is and improving and playing stronger players. Train the pivot to get the knockout blow so to speak Thumbs Up but also don't ignore the weakness on the backhand side so closing the hole as well. If that makes sense kind of. I might not have explained it well to be honest. If you have fewer weaknesses lot less to exploit.

I've seen so many players leave things out like that and then play almost catchup a bit. Blah has time to practice lucky bugger Thumbs UpSmile !! 








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Agree the knockout blow is best NL if it's that end of rally winnner Thumbs Up. Most of TT is played with not many actual rally points. Why extend the point any longer than needed 100% with you on that. Also when you get a bit older running around and playing forehands isn't a goer all the time. The bones don't like it!

My thinking was when trying to step up levels which Blah is and improving and playing stronger players. Train the pivot to get the knockout blow so to speak Thumbs Up but also don't ignore the weakness on the backhand side so closing the hole as well. If that makes sense kind of. I might not have explained it well to be honest. If you have fewer weaknesses lot less to exploit.

I've seen so many players leave things out like that and then play almost catchup a bit. Blah has time to practice lucky bugger Thumbs UpSmile !! 









No disagreement here, ghostzen.  Developing all your skills long term is always the goal, especially if you are lopsided, as it makes you less vulnerable to players below your playing level.  For a match tactic, you can lose trying to play a balanced game the same way you can lose trying to play an imbalanced game - you just need to do what is winning points and expand your options.  For a growth tactic, build all aspects of your game while trying to introduce your strongest weapons in your practice and matches.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 1:36pm
NL no probs here at all my friend  Smile. Just trying to explain my rational and also always great to here your views.

All the best

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 4:24pm
Only real solution is to slap on some OX LP and get it to that forehand! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Only real solution is to slap on some OX LP and get it to that forehand! 

I actually tried using LPs and they were insanely hard to use unlike what ppl told me....the feeling in the hand was just completely different, and the ball died in the net way too often. 

On the other hand I tried both sides SP and i could play quite well with it already without much training haha....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/07/2021 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The answer is always - it depends on the opponent.  If an opponent can't control your forehand, then there is no reason for him to see your backhand.  But if an opponent can bring back your forehand, then you need to rally to get a better shot.

But it is always better to be able to introduce your best weapon earlier and earlier in the point if it is scoring than to save it for a shot in the point that may never come.  

That's actually a pretty good way to think about it... I feel like I drop quite a few points in level if I started to use more backhand. But if I don't use the BH in matches then it'll never improve. Chicken and egg I guess LOL
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