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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2021 at 5:32pm
@blahness and others,
you need to observe just the millisecond of actual contact to get whats really going on. Ask yourselves if the ball can be affected when the bat is not in contact!
About Timo saying "wraparound". does he say specifically WHY he wants the kid to wraparound? I would guess its for reasons of Transition and readiness for next shot. German speakers please help!
Its a fundamental of good stroking that the racket angle should be constant through contact. Otherwise errors would result.
The "wraparound" exhibited in yr Ma Long example is a function of Ma Long 's follow through which enables him to have good transition (to balance and readiness) by pulling the racket by folding his elbow. Also in this case the impression of "Wraparound" is exaggerated by his "hooking" the stroke to send the ball wider to the fh. But again this "Hook" does not involve changing the contact angle during the stroke it just means setting the angle before contact.


Edited by pingpongpaddy - 04/11/2021 at 4:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2021 at 5:33pm
@blahness
you need to observe just the millisecond of actual contact to get whats really going on.
Its a fundamental of good stroking that the racket angle should be constant through contact. Otherwise errors would result.
The "wraparound" exhibited in yr Ma Long example is a function of Ma Long 's follow through which enables him to have good transition (to balance and readiness) by pulling the racket towards his body by folding his elbow. Also in this case the impression of "Wraparound" is exaggerated by his "hooking" the stroke to send the ball wider to the fh. But again this "Hook" does not involve changing the contact angle during the stroke it just means setting the angle before contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2021 at 4:24am
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

@blahness
you need to observe just the millisecond of actual contact to get whats really going on.
Its a fundamental of good stroking that the racket angle should be constant through contact. Otherwise errors would result.
The "wraparound" exhibited in yr Ma Long example is a function of Ma Long 's follow through which enables him to have good transition (to balance and readiness) by pulling the racket by folding his elbow. Also in this case the impression of "Wraparound" is exaggerated by his "hooking" the stroke to send the ball wider to the fh. But again this "Hook" does not involve changing the contact angle during the stroke it just means setting the angle before contact.

Actually he also curves the stroke path, it is not a straight line. It's easier to see it when it's hooking it, but in fact it is present in every single loop stroke.

Watch closely below:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2021 at 4:54am
@blahness
again I would suggest you ask yourself how the ball can be affected by the stroke when not in contact!

I wonder if the Flat Earth Society is looking for members?

But seriously look no further than these ideas of yours for lack of progress in your game.
Once you start to smell the coffee things will get better
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2021 at 5:09am
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

@blahness
again I would suggest you ask yourself how the ball can be affected by the stroke when not in contact!

I wonder if the Flat Earth Society is looking for members?

But seriously look no further than these ideas of yours for lack of progress in your game.
Once you start to smell the coffee things will get better

Umm, all of the super high level players I've played with teaches the wrapping of the ball. Even higher level players like Timo Boll, coach Meng from WRM table tennis channel (ex table tennis champion from China). I'm not sure how high level of a player you can be without understanding the wrapping of the ball. 

As you can see from the slowmo of Ma Long's loop, he closes the racket angle at contact. 


Edited by blahness - 04/11/2021 at 5:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2021 at 5:59am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Umm, all of the super high level players I've played with teaches the wrapping of the ball. Even higher level players like Timo Boll, coach Meng from WRM table tennis channel (ex table tennis champion from China).
I'm not sure how high level of a player you can be without understanding the wrapping of the ball. 


As you can see from the slowmo of Ma Long's loop, he closes the racket angle at contact. 



you can refer to high level players all you want. In the end its what they do that counts not what they say. In watching yr video of ML i see him executing a quality closed racket contact without changing the angle during the contact phase.
its worth remembering that not every high level player is also a high level analyst of tt technique whether his own or other peoples. Its worth remembering that the words you read or listen to may have been misinterpreted by you. On the other hand the video of ML represents the truth


i am 72 i am no superstar, but back in the days before computer rankings I beat my national ranked no 23. During my career I have had the opportunity to converse with all kinds and levels of players and coaches and the consensus is that the stability of the wrist at the contact phase is vital otherwise errors result. Thus if the arm is swinging through contact at 46 degrees then the whippyness of the wrist should not be changed to 48 degrees. rather it should also be brushing at 46 degrees. Indeed I remember refusing to coach a promising junior because he had similar ideas to you. All the coaches agreed that he had a "wobble" in his stroke at vital moments causing errors but he wouldnt listen to us, so, in spite of his woderful bh he did not progress


i watched the video . no wrap. no wobble. Just ML with his very simple excellent no frills technique with racket at same angle through stroke



Edited by pingpongpaddy - 04/11/2021 at 6:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2021 at 6:32am
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Umm, all of the super high level players I've played with teaches the wrapping of the ball. Even higher level players like Timo Boll, coach Meng from WRM table tennis channel (ex table tennis champion from China).
I'm not sure how high level of a player you can be without understanding the wrapping of the ball. 


As you can see from the slowmo of Ma Long's loop, he closes the racket angle at contact. 



you can refer to high level players all you want. In the end its what they do that counts not what they say. In watching yr video of ML i see him executing a quality closed racket contact without changing the angle during the contact phase.
its worth remembering that not every high level player is also a high level analyst of tt technique whether his own or other peoples. Its worth remembering that the words you read or listen to may have been misinterpreted by you. On the other hand the video of ML represents the truth


i am 72 i am no superstar, but back in the days before computer rankings I beat my national ranked no 23. During my career I have had the opportunity to converse with all kinds and levels of players and coaches and the consensus is that the stability of the wrist at the contact phase is vital otherwise errors result. Thus if the arm is swinging through contact at 46 degrees then the whippyness of the wrist should not be changed to 48 degrees. rather it should also be brushing at 46 degrees. Indeed I remember refusing to coach a promising junior because he had similar ideas to you. All the coaches agreed that he had a "wobble" in his stroke at vital moments causing errors but he wouldnt listen to us, so, in spite of his woderful bh he did not progress


i watched the video . no wrap. no wobble. Just ML with his very simple excellent no frills technique with racket at same angle through stroke


No wonder, you come from the pre-inverted era which explains a lot.... wrapping is not very effective unless it's with modern inverted rubbers. 

That ML slowmo video is super clear imo, you can see that change in angle easily by him curving the stroke path. It is subtle (ie you have to look for it), but definitely there. 
Also wrapping the ball is extremely basic Chinese TT looping technique, all the tutorials teach that lol...

How about this (watch from 3 mins onwards, and 6:50 onwards for coach Meng's demonstration)


Edited by blahness - 04/11/2021 at 6:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2021 at 6:48am

when coach meng hits the ball for real his stroke is normal and stable. When he shadow strokes he demonstrates something   like your theory his japanese mate is the same. He is unfortunately one of those coaches who has not considered that he is trying to teach something that he himself does not do in practice.
its a pity because though his heart is in the right place his classes lead people like Blahness who dont have the habit of critically analysing incoming advice right up the garden path into error. Moral:: no matter who advises you, dont forget to use your own ability to think for yourself.
here is a real coach. no bs no diagrams. just commonsense

chinese olympic coach


i played with inverted from 1960' to 1977- lp and tackiness up to 1979 then sp thereafter
some tt history:-
the modern style of playing with inverted began with hasegawa(1967) bengtssen (1971) when the heavier topspin briefly overcame the chinese sp hitting style of zhuang de dong. In 1977 the chinese recovered their dominance using lp play and looping play to be interrupted by the swedes later on.
the first high performance inverted rubbers were sriver, super sriver and mark v which arrived about 1971- 72
btw
I can recall doing that same practice that ML demonstrates 4 or 5 times a week with my practice partners in the early 70's. I would have been using mark v 2mm. There was no internet so we learnt the techniques from studying motion analysis photos from butterfly report. In those days we were loop crazy even more than today, partly because at the the time we saw the loop as something that overturned china dominance. We loved the round the net play of Jonyer and Gergely. However the the play of today shows that the fundamentals of tt tactics from china in the 60's - close to the table early striking have reasserted themselves in the advanced topspin of the 21st century

we are starting to repeat ourselves.
good luck in yr career


Edited by pingpongpaddy - 04/11/2021 at 9:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2021 at 4:30pm
This video and another one posted on another thread are not talking about wrapping the ball.  Those explain the  Chinese drive-loop need more hitting through and the traditional spiny loop needs brushing/wrapping . By the way, Ma long is famous for its curve out topspin. His swing path is on another level : curving out rather than straight and curving in.
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Umm, all of the super high level players I've played with teaches the wrapping of the ball. Even higher level players like Timo Boll, coach Meng from WRM table tennis channel (ex table tennis champion from China).
I'm not sure how high level of a player you can be without understanding the wrapping of the ball. 


As you can see from the slowmo of Ma Long's loop, he closes the racket angle at contact. 



you can refer to high level players all you want. In the end its what they do that counts not what they say. In watching yr video of ML i see him executing a quality closed racket contact without changing the angle during the contact phase.
its worth remembering that not every high level player is also a high level analyst of tt technique whether his own or other peoples. Its worth remembering that the words you read or listen to may have been misinterpreted by you. On the other hand the video of ML represents the truth


i am 72 i am no superstar, but back in the days before computer rankings I beat my national ranked no 23. During my career I have had the opportunity to converse with all kinds and levels of players and coaches and the consensus is that the stability of the wrist at the contact phase is vital otherwise errors result. Thus if the arm is swinging through contact at 46 degrees then the whippyness of the wrist should not be changed to 48 degrees. rather it should also be brushing at 46 degrees. Indeed I remember refusing to coach a promising junior because he had similar ideas to you. All the coaches agreed that he had a "wobble" in his stroke at vital moments causing errors but he wouldnt listen to us, so, in spite of his woderful bh he did not progress


i watched the video . no wrap. no wobble. Just ML with his very simple excellent no frills technique with racket at same angle through stroke


No wonder, you come from the pre-inverted era which explains a lot.... wrapping is not very effective unless it's with modern inverted rubbers. 

That ML slowmo video is super clear imo, you can see that change in angle easily by him curving the stroke path. It is subtle (ie you have to look for it), but definitely there. 
Also wrapping the ball is extremely basic Chinese TT looping technique, all the tutorials teach that lol...

How about this (watch from 3 mins onwards, and 6:50 onwards for coach Meng's demonstration)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2021 at 4:43pm


The first swing path shows the traditional way and the second one shows the new hitting through technique to launch  a explosive forward speedy topspin .

Below is Ma long demonstrating this stroke:



Edited by Robin.w - 04/11/2021 at 5:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2021 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:



The first swing path shows the traditional way and the second one shows the new hitting through technique to launch  a explosive forward speedy topspin .

Below is Ma long demonstrating this stroke:


Actually it's neither of the both, before contacting the ball you have to go into it in a hitting movement to sink the ball reliably into the sponge (using the body), hence it will look like 2 pre-contact (but it's achieved with the body and not the arm), then after hitting the ball into the sponge then you need to wrap the ball to ensure max brush so it will look like 1 during and after contact, and it's achieved using pronation/supination...

Zeio's diagram perfectly illustrates this.


Edited by blahness - 04/11/2021 at 6:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2021 at 7:58pm
1:The swing path of  your racket combines all the movement of your leg, body, elbow, arms, wrist, finger, blade....
2: before contacting the ball you have to go into it in a hitting movement to sink the ball reliably into the sponge (using the body)
    Above is what exactly the 2 shows . Before contacting the ball there is a hitting movement

3:The traditional topspin/ loop is just what you talking about . We do see lots of wrapping loop in matches . Once a full speed hitting contact the ball and penetrate the sponge, the ball will be at its perk speed leaving your racket, the wrapping will barely have any impact.


Edited by Robin.w - 04/11/2021 at 11:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 1:49pm
Been held up by other stuff.

Posting the following just for now. Have quite a few other studies up my sleeve that will end the careers of some members here, especially the aspect of upward, forward, and lateral racket velocities.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5950751/?tool=pmcentrez
Quote Discussion

The aim of our tests was to uncover correlations between angular velocities recorded in individual joints and body segments and the racket velocity in several variants of topspin strokes. The results lead to the conclusion that maximal velocities and velocities at impact are very similar, although in all tests the mean velocities at impact were slightly lower than maximal velocities, presumably because contact between racket and ball occurs slightly before maximal racket velocity is reached. It is likely that the racket reaches maximal velocity immediately after the first contact, but still with the ball remaining “at the racket”. We propose that prolonged contact between racket and ball during acceleration increases rotation due to the effects of friction (Lufang et al., 2013). This could be confirmed by using higher frequencies in the motion analysis system.

...It is also possible, that the rapid internal shoulder rotation helps to control the ball by ensuring that the ball is “covered” by the racket and extending the duration of contact between racket and ball.

...

It should also be emphasized that the correlations reported here relate the resultant racket velocities. Although separating the three directional components (upward, forward, lateral) would make it easier to detect additional correlations it would increase the already high number of parameters analysed.

...

Maximal racket velocity and velocity at contact with the ball were very similar, with non-significant differences in the magnitude and time taken to reach these values resulting from acceleration of the racket at the moment of contact with the ball, which is used to increase ball rotation.


Edited by zeio - 04/27/2021 at 1:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2021 at 12:10pm
     GIVE UP ALL THE LOOPS . LEARN FORHAND DRIVES INSTEAD.   

Japanese coach gave a new destroyer to ITO Mima hands, that is to drive the ball rather than looping.
DRIVING the ball with a racket open face. This is the clue to Mima's super_power.

Be happy.

PS// Go and consult from Youtube video of Mima's training behind closed doors.
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