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Painful calluses in toes

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Rollko View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/28/2021 at 6:33pm
Hi all,

Having played continuously for quite some time, I've developed painful calluses on the bottom of my toes, especially in big toes (bottom and sides - right side in the left toe and left side in the right toe).

What could be causing this? Poorly fitting socks/shoes come to mind - if so, how to best choose these to prevent the issue from happening?



Edited by Rollko - 08/28/2021 at 6:33pm
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Basquests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2021 at 3:18am
Calluses develop because of repeated friction / pressure, that isn't being modulated / prepared for correctly.

The problem is worsened because the calluses forming / jutting out, means that the affected area becomes the main point of contact i.e. the problem worsens. Think about a 4 legged table, if one leg becomes longer, the majority of the weight of the table will go through the longer leg. Likewise, your calluses being the main contact area will ensure all the pressure is directed there.

Now, to fix the problem getting bigger. First, you can remove the calluses. Google this, but it basically boils down to after you take a warm shower / bath, use a callus shaver either outside or laying down a towel [to collect the skin], this will start to address the problem of the callus growing bigger and bigger. Do your due diligence, some huge calluses would need to be professionally removed, and I did mine over a period of several days / a week, to ensure I didn't grate away 'good' skin [i.e. too much].


But how to address the root cause? Socks, insoles [/ orthotics] and shoes.

Firstly, your socks most likely have minimal cushioning, and aren't sports socks. Oh, and they are probably old, so have about as much cushioning as paper. Get sports socks, I use thorlos tennis socks, as they are the best. Around $13 usd per pair, but will last a very long time, have a lot more cushioning everywhere, and have tactical extra cushioning on higher impact areas i.e. toes/forefoot and heel, as well as dealing with sweat etc. much better.... and start replacing socks as they get worn and lose cushioning.

Next, insoles. Orthotics are personalized insoles designed for you, probably unnecessary at this stage. Normal sports Insoles correct structural / biomechanical issues, as well as adding another thicker layer of cushioning. This will mean you're walking / playing more efficiently, and also have another layer of cushioning that means again your foot isn't taking as much of a beating. Before I got custom orthotics prescribed [for free], I had bought superfeet Orange insoles. Around $40-50 USD, but there's a British website selling them for around 20-25 quid [Outdoor GB or such], they are well worth the money. Again, research them yourselves, but their claims are largely valid in my experience. A significant improvement cf the lining you get when you buy most TT / running shoes.

Lastly, shoes. I don't know what shoes you have, but I'm a big believer in buying badminton shoes. They have more cushioning, and better overall support than even the most supportive TT shoes. TT shoes are simply all very minimalistic and do not provide support not cushioning in any meaningful way. Badminton shoes are designed for court and lateral movement as well, but simply have a bit more support/cushioning due to more competition between Brands to innovate, as well as the sport being a bit more rough on feet.

 I personally would recommend any top end yonex shoe, except the Aerus line [too lightweight and minimalistic]. I.e. 65Z2, Eclipsion or Comfort Line. They also last a lot longer than TT shoes, as badminton is a lot more damaging to shoes with the jumping and lunging having more power transfer, on a regular basis so you will save in the medium/long run.

I'm confident any of these interventions will help, but definitely consider upgrading all 3 if you want to keep playing as you age, more so if you are overweight or simply play with a lot of movement / explosivity, as each of the changes are transformative in and of themselves IMO. There are other benefits in terms of performance and injury prevention from each of these interventions - I have been out injured all year due to a ligament injury, hence I had to learn the hard way. The calluses had been there for a little while, and if I was wiser the calluses were a warning sign that parts of my body were not able to deal with the stresses I was putting them under.

This has been my TedTalk, feel free to ask questions or to disagree with anything!


Edited by Basquests - 08/29/2021 at 3:27am
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Rollko View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rollko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2021 at 1:28pm
Hi Basquests,

That's great advice, thank you.

I've now got proper socks and insoles, last thing to sort out is the shoes.

What do you think about Butterfly Lezoline Rifones or Butterfly Lezoline Mach? Would those provide more cushioning than some other models? Or are there any other good table tennis shoes with more cushioning? I've heard that the Mizuno shoes are not best when it comes to that.

Badminton shoes seem like a last resort but willing to consider that too.


Edited by Rollko - 08/30/2021 at 1:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zwill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2021 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Rollko Rollko wrote:

Hi Basquests,

That's great advice, thank you.

I've now got proper socks and insoles, last thing to sort out is the shoes.

What do you think about Butterfly Lezoline Rifones or Butterfly Lezoline Mach? Would those provide more cushioning than some other models? Or are there any other good table tennis shoes with more cushioning? I've heard that the Mizuno shoes are not best when it comes to that.

Badminton shoes seem like a last resort but willing to consider that too.
I only have a Mizuno soled 729 shoe. At the heel I feel it feels actually softer than my Lezoline Mach, maybe a bit too soft for my normal liking.
I normally chew trough a bad table tennis shoe in 2-3 months. I had an andro cross step, 2-3 months and the sole was gone, was just worn down completely. 
The Mach I've been using for 1.5 years and it's getting to the same level as the andro was after 2 months. Mach has much more cushioning too.
Most pro players use Mizuno I think, I would guess 60%, then BTY is also popular and some Asics. Even the Chinese players who use Li Ning shoes have a Mizuno sole under them and very few use a Li Ning shoe with an actual own made sole construction.
The Lezoline Mach worked fine for me, it has good grip on every indoor court type. But I think Mizuno would also suit me well. I never tried the Wave Medal series but it is very popular in Japan and I've seen many Chinese (even national payers) using it in chinese tournaments. The BOA laced version that Mima Ito uses is particularly interesting.
Butterfly Innerforce ZLC 85g AN old version
FH: Mizuno Q5 2.1 black, 51g
BH: Rozena 2.1 red 46g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rollko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2021 at 5:49pm
Has anyone tried Donic Waldner III ?

Edited by Rollko - 08/30/2021 at 5:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2021 at 10:11pm
One more thing on the sock side.  Have you tried using a liner sock under your regular sport sock.  Liner socks are thin very slippery socks that minimize the friction getting to you skin.  I had bad blister problems and started wearing 2 pairs of regular sport socks (required buying larger size shoe).  It helped some.  Then I tried the liner socks (back to regular size shoe) and have had almost no blister issues since.  The liner socks are also moisture wicking so they keep the skin on the foot dryer, which also helps cut down on blisters.

Good luck.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2021 at 12:58am
Originally posted by Rollko Rollko wrote:

Hi Basquests,

That's great advice, thank you.

I've now got proper socks and insoles, last thing to sort out is the shoes.

What do you think about Butterfly Lezoline Rifones or Butterfly Lezoline Mach? Would those provide more cushioning than some other models? Or are there any other good table tennis shoes with more cushioning? I've heard that the Mizuno shoes are not best when it comes to that.

Badminton shoes seem like a last resort but willing to consider that too.

Butterfly shoes are about aesthetics and being lightweight.

After having my eyes opened by badminton shoes, i cannot recommend any TT shoes, despite trying a lot of them, the difference is a chasm.

I'm very happy you have opted for getting proper socks and insoles, if you're willing to share, what did you opt for? Perhaps you've found something worth looking into, or if it's similar stuff you can share your experiences with it, sometime in the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2021 at 1:02am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

One more thing on the sock side.  Have you tried using a liner sock under your regular sport sock.  Liner socks are thin very slippery socks that minimize the friction getting to you skin.  I had bad blister problems and started wearing 2 pairs of regular sport socks (required buying larger size shoe).  It helped some.  Then I tried the liner socks (back to regular size shoe) and have had almost no blister issues since.  The liner socks are also moisture wicking so they keep the skin on the foot dryer, which also helps cut down on blisters.

Good luck.

Mark

That is why i recommended high end sports socks, they reduce friction in many ways and wick away sweat etc. A liner is very recommended for normal socks - unfortunately i have a bunch of new liners and no use for them with the thorlos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evilgu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/01/2021 at 5:40am
Because I didn't wear professional sneakers and socks, I had broken 3 toenails.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rollko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/01/2021 at 1:42pm
How do those badminton shoes perform in terms of the grippiness of the sole? Are they sufficiently anti-slippery?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2021 at 1:37pm
I've answered your PM as you'd asked me the same question. Yes, far less slippery than any Mizuno's or Butterfly shoes, and I've tried all the mizuno's before. WM5, WM6, WD etc.

You can save your water for drinking rather than addressing slipperiness issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2021 at 3:37pm
@Basquests any specific badminton shoe model recommendations?  I assume one of the yonex, they seem to be the leader.  But badminton shoes are expensive and I'd like to choose well on the first try.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ClimbK2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2021 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

@Basquests any specific badminton shoe model recommendations?  I assume one of the yonex, they seem to be the leader.  But badminton shoes are expensive and I'd like to choose well on the first try.


Basquests provided excellent feedback, as did several other people, on this thread: 
He recommended the Yonex 65 Z2, and the shoe is used by many elite badminton players (I tried it, liked much about it, but found the heel significantly too high for me, impacting my footwork).  

The link below is where equipment reference info is located, and includes an older link on shoes (some recommend volleyball, squash, badminton and indoor soccer shoes)

Note that foot differences (width, arch, pronation, etc.), body weight, and performance vs. support tradeoff are all factors in which shoe to get. No one shoes is best for everyone.  
BFLY IF Layer ALC, Hurricane 3 Provincial, Tenergy T05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2021 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

@Basquests any specific badminton shoe model recommendations?  I assume one of the yonex, they seem to be the leader.  But badminton shoes are expensive and I'd like to choose well on the first try.


I'd recommend anything in their top line.

65z2 is great if you want good stability and still a light shoe in the low 300gs. Many pros use it, 13 out of the top 20 mens players a year or 2 ago. Much more support and stability and grip than any TT shoe, whilst being middle of the road in weight for a TT shoe. I moved a lot faster in these than my wave medals, and felt the fit was a lot better, but they also had much better cushioning, which takes us back to injury prevention and foot comfort.

Note 65z2 comes in different variations. 65zm2 is for men, its slightly wider to accommodate men having slightly wider feet. 65z2 wide is the extra wide version. Most yonex shoes have womens, mens and then extra super wide versions. I would avoid any 'X' versions or older versions of these lines, as these recent offerings are well worth the premium in terms of shoe quality and durability.

Eclipsion z2 and cushion comfort are 2 different options that provide even more support, stability and cushioning. For those who are perhaps older, heavier or simply need more protection for their knees or feet due to injury. Im 27 and will be transitioning to these when I'm able to play after my injury, and I'm now quite light. Still light enough for many pros in badminton to use, the fit being a lot better helps make the weight seem lower than it is for all these top end shoes 

Aerus 3 and aerus Z. Lightest shoes available, lighter than the lightest tt shoes. For those who want speed and thin heels at all costs. Obviously you will take a hit in terms of cushioning and the like, but it'll still have more of that than most tt shoes. It is still designed for high impact, given that badminton is has highest forces involved that need to be mediated, but i personally always have shied sway from the more minimalistic shoes, I'd rather play at a high level for twice as long rather than move 2% quicker. Losing 1 kilo of fat  does more if you care about than anyway.

There's also the dial 88 and eclipsion infinity. These are both using BOA systems, i.e. dials instead of laces. I didn't investigate them too much, as to me its more like a flip phone, maybe it's the future but it's likely underdeveloped. They look cool.

Shop around and see whats cheap in your area, and try the shoes. Obviously you need to wear in any shoe for a few sessions before you get a clear idea of how good it is, and stick to CM (jp) sizing. My size is 28.5 cm across dozens of shoes over the years, nike, mizuno (tt), adidas, NB, yonex, asics, Ck etc. US sizing is inconsistent, CM is not.

Pro tip for wearing in any shoes is wear them with two pairs of socks and walk around / on your laptop at home, as otherwise if you immediately play in them brand new your feet will be far more sore than your wallet. And your session will suck.


Edited by Basquests - 09/03/2021 at 4:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ybok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2021 at 4:22pm
I've had some callous problems on a few toes and started wearing toe socks to keep my toes from rubbing against each other.  They have solved that problem for me.  They take a few seconds more to put them on and take them off but they work and are comfortable for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yahnaha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by Rollko Rollko wrote:

Hi Basquests,

That's great advice, thank you.

I've now got proper socks and insoles, last thing to sort out is the shoes.

What do you think about Butterfly Lezoline Rifones or Butterfly Lezoline Mach? Would those provide more cushioning than some other models? Or are there any other good table tennis shoes with more cushioning? I've heard that the Mizuno shoes are not best when it comes to that.

Badminton shoes seem like a last resort but willing to consider that too.
Same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2021 at 9:12pm
Regarding shoes, I've been using Nike indoor soccer shoes in their "Mercurial" line for about 4-5 years now. They work fine for me. I don't like purchasing online. I like to try shoes on in a store and "indoor soccer" gives me a lot of opportunity to do that.  Floor adhesion is as good as any table tennis shoe I've tried. 

I wouldn't suggest these if you have wide feet tho. But again, I'd prefer buying them locally rather than online.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WayneEmby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2021 at 5:47am
I am using the same Nike shoes due to my flat feet pain issues.
I have been regular customer of https://bestrunningaccessories.com. They have been providing top reviewed shoes with summarize details of each shoe.
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