Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  Help Desk Help Desk  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - concept of chasing the ball with the feet
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

concept of chasing the ball with the feet

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4593
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: concept of chasing the ball with the feet
    Posted: 11/21/2021 at 5:36pm
I've been watching some badminton recently and one concept that always gets mentioned is the "speed up" where a player intentionally chases the shuttle hard to take it earlier and thus take away time from the other player. However, it seems that this takes up a lot of energy/concentration, so they only do it in spurts, often during crucial times. It's a lot about increasing the speed in the foot.

However in table tennis I believe this is a valid strategy as fatigue is not so bad of an issue.

Often as shakehand players we can afford to get lazy and just wait for the ball to drop quite a bit more than say penhold players (coz we have much better BHs in general). After playing a long time against high level penhold players, one thing I noticed is that they really do not let up the pace, they will always chase after the ball hard with the feet to be in position and refuse to let the ball drop much (be it pushes, loops, etc). As a result the opponent is always put under time pressure and in an uncomfortable position, often defending. Sometimes they don't always insist on the strongest shot - they would rather do a relatively softer shot taken earlier, than a harder short taken later. 

I've been trying this style out a bit too. It seems that the gist is, rather than waiting for the ball to come to you, you're always chasing the ball with the feet to take it at your preferred timing (often slightly before the peak). To make your feet faster, you have to even warm it up by continuous rapidly stepping on both feet and to make it a habit. Of course it's kinda a high pressure and high octane playstyle but I found it quite fun. Even though I made a lot of mistakes pushing the pace but I felt that I was always in the driver's seat this way, rather than defending most of the time. 

It's actually somewhat easier physically to loop the ball before its peak too...compared to when its dropping where you have to lift it a lot in addition to providing it with forward momentum. The key concept here is to only change the racket angle to deal with different spins (more open for backspin balls, more closed for topspin), and not to change the overall shape of the stroke like the traditional way. For eg traditionally against backspin we wait for the ball to drop and then lift/spin it, then try to follow it up with a powerloop. With what the penholders think, they just open the racket angle to be able to "ride" the incoming backspin and just drive loop through it like it was a no spin ball (and letting the natural stroke trajectory close the angle during the followthrough - very important otherwise the spin will be nonexistent and you'll be driving balls out of the table all the time). Using this concept, using the correct angle you can drive loop through almost everything. This is actually more advanced because once you slow loop you give the opponent an opportunity to regain the initiative via placement blocking or counterloops or other nasty stuff like chopblocks. With a drive loop taken earlier the opponent is still put under tremendous time pressure.  With this concept, the traditional slow loop would become a last resort choice (if you're truly out of position) rather than the default choice against longer backspin balls.

I think as shakehanders if we apply this style it's even more suffocating than the penhold because you can drive loop through everything with both BH and FH (penholders usually still have a BH weakness in general).
-------
Butterfly Viscaria

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Dignics 05
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
bozbrisvegas View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/27/2008
Location: Behind you
Status: Offline
Points: 3440
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2021 at 2:52pm
Short pip players, and other shorter stroke drivers at the table really have an advantage especially at the lower levels and especially against loopers who take the ball later but can't return a power shot.  If you are going to take the ball late you really have to invest in a powerful shot or else eventually get stuck chasing balls side to side, wider and wider until you are exhausted.

I listened to a Timo Boll tutorial vid, and he said people take their backhands right off the bounce instead of waiting for it a bit longer and he said that causes mistakes.  I disagree with that because I just don't know the ball bounce height of everyone's shots coming to me, and if I take it at about the same height I am going to get more contact than trying to guess the height.  You know those loops coming at you and they just dive right under your blade, almost not bouncing up at all....  

Anyhow I find it easy to be quite aggressive looping the top so close but must recoil even faster, which gets harder with a heavier blade... (why I try to use the lightest blades if I can)

As for forehand, you should be prepared to take it later since we tend to leave that side much wider open...

Don't we always chase the ball with our feet?   ie. try to be in a place we guess will be most optimal to finish the game with the next shot?
Michael Maze Straight handle + Hurricane 3-50
table tennis video
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4593
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2021 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

Short pip players, and other shorter stroke drivers at the table really have an advantage especially at the lower levels and especially against loopers who take the ball later but can't return a power shot.  If you are going to take the ball late you really have to invest in a powerful shot or else eventually get stuck chasing balls side to side, wider and wider until you are exhausted.

I listened to a Timo Boll tutorial vid, and he said people take their backhands right off the bounce instead of waiting for it a bit longer and he said that causes mistakes.  I disagree with that because I just don't know the ball bounce height of everyone's shots coming to me, and if I take it at about the same height I am going to get more contact than trying to guess the height.  You know those loops coming at you and they just dive right under your blade, almost not bouncing up at all....  

Anyhow I find it easy to be quite aggressive looping the top so close but must recoil even faster, which gets harder with a heavier blade... (why I try to use the lightest blades if I can)

As for forehand, you should be prepared to take it later since we tend to leave that side much wider open...

Don't we always chase the ball with our feet?   ie. try to be in a place we guess will be most optimal to finish the game with the next shot?

The problem with taking the ball late is exactly like what you said, sure you gain consistency but you're gonna get jammed by faster players and that is not a fun place to be. I think there's a stereotype of loopers taking the ball late (always thinking of maximising spin and consistency), but in fact there is nothing stopping a looper from taking the ball early with drive loops, and in fact, most warmups are FH and BH drives taken early. The problem is that most loopers never learnt to drive early against underspin unlike the good penholders (esp pips players who are well trained in the dark arts of blade angle manipulation), they only know how to loop it upwards at a later timing, so they are forced to loop from mid distance whenever there is a fast long underspin push. The loop drive against underspin taken early is a real weapon because nobody expects it and they're usually still busy recovering from their previous stroke, haha.

I guess what I meant by chasing the ball with our feet is that to play at an even faster tempo, you really need to be much more aggressive about it rather than just being more chill as usual. 


Edited by blahness - 11/22/2021 at 4:00pm
-------
Butterfly Viscaria

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Dignics 05
Back to Top
bozbrisvegas View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/27/2008
Location: Behind you
Status: Offline
Points: 3440
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2021 at 6:45pm
You may have seen my other post about penholder forehand over the table... It is well known that the penholder angle is superior at taking it earlier over the table.  It simply is the mechanics of the wrist angle being way to extreme to do that with shakehold over the table.  

The best the shakehand Chinese players do is that kind of flat forehand slap for shorter balls.  Whereas the penholders can initiate a very early power loop/drive....  The opposite is true for backhand, hence you see so many shakehanders move far over to use their backhand on shots that 'should' be forehand, especially in the shorter game.  It's much easier to get a killer backhand short over the table with as a result.

I find it really uncomfortable to hold that shakehand chicken arm with wrist totally at its limit to keep the blade horizontal to the table for FH




Edited by bozbrisvegas - 11/22/2021 at 6:50pm
Michael Maze Straight handle + Hurricane 3-50
table tennis video
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4593
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2021 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

You may have seen my other post about penholder forehand over the table... It is well known that the penholder angle is superior at taking it earlier over the table.  It simply is the mechanics of the wrist angle being way to extreme to do that with shakehold over the table.  

The best the shakehand Chinese players do is that kind of flat forehand slap for shorter balls.  Whereas the penholders can initiate a very early power loop/drive....  The opposite is true for backhand, hence you see so many shakehanders move far over to use their backhand on shots that 'should' be forehand, especially in the shorter game.  It's much easier to get a killer backhand short over the table with as a result.

I find it really uncomfortable to hold that shakehand chicken arm with wrist totally at its limit to keep the blade horizontal to the table for FH



I guess I was referring more to long balls, where you still can choose what timing you want to hit the ball at. A lot of shakehand players still loop long pushes quite late (and as a result get pushed away from the table). If we took those at earlier timings then we can stay close to the table in a more aggressive position. 

With short balls, the shakehand FH attacking options are quite limited. The FH flick kill is one of the hardest shots to be consistent at, and even at the highest level I see players make a lot of mistakes on that especially against good pushers (except Ma Long and Harimoto and Ito imo). Personally I use more of a sidespin flick (similar to a weaker version of the BH chiquita) coupled with a FH fade and a sudden dropshot for variation, even on higher short balls. It's not as strong as the BH chiquita/fade but it's good enough to not be a terrible weakness haha....

I no longer drop my wrist on my FH (due to a wrist injury), I feel like you can already get quite good spin without doing that. 


-------
Butterfly Viscaria

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Dignics 05
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Assistant Admin
Assistant Admin
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2021 at 9:38pm
I also like tennis very much and I observe Medvedev and Zverev - both very tall - presenting a full arm fh that draws a huge ellipse in the backswing. It is devastating and they save energy as they build the stroke momentum gradually. That is valid from behind the baseline. 
Pure loopers in table tennis also need more time to fully engage the power of their forehand loop and that's why they can't afford to systematically take the ball early, their forehand loop would be 1/2 baked.
Does it mean the pure looper is on a losing path because shorter strokes off the bounce close to the table is always better if we can stabilize a game around that strategy? I think yes. From there, anybody thinking the same would be chasing the ball to always be no further than 3 feet away from where the ball hits their side of the table; the footwork to do that would be a side effect of the decision.
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4593
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2021 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

I also like tennis very much and I observe Medvedev and Zverev - both very tall - presenting a full arm fh that draws a huge ellipse in the backswing. It is devastating and they save energy as they build the stroke momentum gradually. That is valid from behind the baseline. 
Pure loopers in table tennis also need more time to fully engage the power of their forehand loop and that's why they can't afford to systematically take the ball early, their forehand loop would be 1/2 baked.
Does it mean the pure looper is on a losing path because shorter strokes off the bounce close to the table is always better if we can stabilize a game around that strategy? I think yes. From there, anybody thinking the same would be chasing the ball to always be no further than 3 feet away from where the ball hits their side of the table; the footwork to do that would be a side effect of the decision.

There's Federer who takes the ball quite early most of the time (a key ingredient to his success imo). 

I think in table tennis, the advent of the 40+ plastic ball really changed the equation in favour of the close table drive loop - spinny opening loops are becoming too easy to handle by opponents (even disrespected sometimes by counter rips). The spinny opening loop is still excellent as a variation tho, not as a main weapon. 
-------
Butterfly Viscaria

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Dignics 05
Back to Top
bozbrisvegas View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/27/2008
Location: Behind you
Status: Offline
Points: 3440
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2021 at 11:10pm
I am eager to see how Timo Boll goes at WTTC.  I hope what ever injury he mentions does not play up.  He to me is one of those pure loopers that looks like he is going to put more drive into his game especially as he gets older.  I am predicting this because he is using the primorac carbon, which to me is a massive equipment change that suggests something is up.  

Funny now I spotted yet another video of him talking about the primorac carbon.  The first was very recent and about WTTC.  The other he was comparing a fast blade and a slow blade 8 months ago... but he said it was too hard to control the PC then.  Sounds like he got sucked in by it, since he said he had never tried either blades before.  8 months of playing with a new blade maybe max?



Take the risk of taking the ball early boys, All the dwell/tack catching the ball is in the dignics already...  no need to use Arylate in my opinion or softer blades if you can get used to it.


Edited by bozbrisvegas - 11/22/2021 at 11:12pm
Michael Maze Straight handle + Hurricane 3-50
table tennis video
Back to Top
yogi_bear View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 11/25/2004
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 6963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 4:09am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I've been watching some badminton recently and one concept that always gets mentioned is the "speed up" where a player intentionally chases the shuttle hard to take it earlier and thus take away time from the other player. However, it seems that this takes up a lot of energy/concentration, so they only do it in spurts, often during crucial times. It's a lot about increasing the speed in the foot.

However in table tennis I believe this is a valid strategy as fatigue is not so bad of an issue.

Often as shakehand players we can afford to get lazy and just wait for the ball to drop quite a bit more than say penhold players (coz we have much better BHs in general). After playing a long time against high level penhold players, one thing I noticed is that they really do not let up the pace, they will always chase after the ball hard with the feet to be in position and refuse to let the ball drop much (be it pushes, loops, etc). As a result the opponent is always put under time pressure and in an uncomfortable position, often defending. Sometimes they don't always insist on the strongest shot - they would rather do a relatively softer shot taken earlier, than a harder short taken later. 

I've been trying this style out a bit too. It seems that the gist is, rather than waiting for the ball to come to you, you're always chasing the ball with the feet to take it at your preferred timing (often slightly before the peak). To make your feet faster, you have to even warm it up by continuous rapidly stepping on both feet and to make it a habit. Of course it's kinda a high pressure and high octane playstyle but I found it quite fun. Even though I made a lot of mistakes pushing the pace but I felt that I was always in the driver's seat this way, rather than defending most of the time. 

It's actually somewhat easier physically to loop the ball before its peak too...compared to when its dropping where you have to lift it a lot in addition to providing it with forward momentum. The key concept here is to only change the racket angle to deal with different spins (more open for backspin balls, more closed for topspin), and not to change the overall shape of the stroke like the traditional way. For eg traditionally against backspin we wait for the ball to drop and then lift/spin it, then try to follow it up with a powerloop. With what the penholders think, they just open the racket angle to be able to "ride" the incoming backspin and just drive loop through it like it was a no spin ball (and letting the natural stroke trajectory close the angle during the followthrough - very important otherwise the spin will be nonexistent and you'll be driving balls out of the table all the time). Using this concept, using the correct angle you can drive loop through almost everything. This is actually more advanced because once you slow loop you give the opponent an opportunity to regain the initiative via placement blocking or counterloops or other nasty stuff like chopblocks. With a drive loop taken earlier the opponent is still put under tremendous time pressure.  With this concept, the traditional slow loop would become a last resort choice (if you're truly out of position) rather than the default choice against longer backspin balls.

I think as shakehanders if we apply this style it's even more suffocating than the penhold because you can drive loop through everything with both BH and FH (penholders usually still have a BH weakness in general).

Even with practice, looping the ball before peak of the bounce is harder to execute because it needs more skill and accuracy for most normal players. No, it is not easier. I do teach all the 3 types of looping contact on the ball namely late, peak of the bounce or on the rise but on-the-rise or before peak of the bounce is only for advanced level of players. 
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS

ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2020 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.