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Short Pips: Vertical vs Horizontal

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    Posted: 12/16/2021 at 8:01am
I'm looking for a new sheet of short pips - planning to use it for flat hitting, hitting through spin, aggressive blocks close to the table, but also controllable placement etc.

What type of pips are better for this purpose? Vertical or Horizontal?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/16/2021 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Rollko Rollko wrote:

I'm looking for a new sheet of short pips - planning to use it for flat hitting, hitting through spin, aggressive blocks close to the table, but also controllable placement etc.

What type of pips are better for this purpose? Vertical or Horizontal?


I don't think it would make a big difference.  However, I usually use vertical pips arrangement on my backhand.  I tried horizontal pips arrangement on my forehand, and it seemed to feel better.  But again, I don't think it would make a big difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2021 at 2:34am
It depends if you are using the pips on forehand or backhand. Typically vertically aligned pips are better for forehand and horizontally aligned pips are better for backhand. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kim_taek_soo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2021 at 3:33am
In my opinion, the short answer to your question is vertical. Flat hitting and hitting through spin are best done with pips that are less sensitive to spin, so you probably want a vertical pip that emphasizes speed, not spin. 

In general, horizontal pips play more like inverted, for example, with pips like Raystorm, 802-40, and VO>102, you can let the ball drop and still hit a loop. Many horizontal pips can still do all the things you mentioned (flat hitting, hitting through spin, aggressive blocks, and controlled placement), but they are more sensitive to spin.

If you want to try something with good control and plenty of speed (spin is average), I recommend Sonic AR in 2.0 thickness. A cheaper option would be 802 (not 802-40) in 2.0 thickness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2021 at 4:16am
Originally posted by kim_taek_soo kim_taek_soo wrote:

In my opinion, the short answer to your question is vertical. Flat hitting and hitting through spin are best done with pips that are less sensitive to spin, so you probably want a vertical pip that emphasizes speed, not spin. 

In general, horizontal pips play more like inverted, for example, with pips like Raystorm, 802-40, and VO>102, you can let the ball drop and still hit a loop. Many horizontal pips can still do all the things you mentioned (flat hitting, hitting through spin, aggressive blocks, and controlled placement), but they are more sensitive to spin.

If you want to try something with good control and plenty of speed (spin is average), I recommend Sonic AR in 2.0 thickness. A cheaper option would be 802 (not 802-40) in 2.0 thickness.

I like the razka / new gen horizontal pips because they don't pigeonhole a FH. In fact, it's more versatile (more gears / range of options) than any inverted rubber / traditional SP.

Obviously, this comes with a tradeoff, as flat hitting is not as effortless, but you can set up slightly easier balls with your more versatile rubber, especially as you can play spinny (or dead) shots and make them look very similar.

Falck used this in the doubles world champs to great effect, as it ensures less than precise returns, which his brother used to then summarily attack the next ball.

Non spinny pips won't have this range of spin, nor will you be able to consistently loop with spin, which is one of the joys of TT to many.


Edited by Basquests - 12/23/2021 at 4:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2021 at 8:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2021 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by kim_taek_soo kim_taek_soo wrote:

In my opinion, the short answer to your question is vertical. Flat hitting and hitting through spin are best done with pips that are less sensitive to spin, so you probably want a vertical pip that emphasizes speed, not spin. 

In general, horizontal pips play more like inverted, for example, with pips like Raystorm, 802-40, and VO>102, you can let the ball drop and still hit a loop. Many horizontal pips can still do all the things you mentioned (flat hitting, hitting through spin, aggressive blocks, and controlled placement), but they are more sensitive to spin.

If you want to try something with good control and plenty of speed (spin is average), I recommend Sonic AR in 2.0 thickness. A cheaper option would be 802 (not 802-40) in 2.0 thickness.

Raystorm are vertical oriented.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kim_taek_soo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2021 at 2:08am
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by kim_taek_soo kim_taek_soo wrote:

In my opinion, the short answer to your question is vertical. Flat hitting and hitting through spin are best done with pips that are less sensitive to spin, so you probably want a vertical pip that emphasizes speed, not spin. 

In general, horizontal pips play more like inverted, for example, with pips like Raystorm, 802-40, and VO>102, you can let the ball drop and still hit a loop. Many horizontal pips can still do all the things you mentioned (flat hitting, hitting through spin, aggressive blocks, and controlled placement), but they are more sensitive to spin.

If you want to try something with good control and plenty of speed (spin is average), I recommend Sonic AR in 2.0 thickness. A cheaper option would be 802 (not 802-40) in 2.0 thickness.

Raystorm are vertical oriented.

Good catch! I used Raystorm on my FH for 5+ years and I never even noticed. I always lumped them together with horizontal pips because they were (for many years) the spinniest SP made by Butterfly. Now this makes me wonder how much horizontal/vertical really matters...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2021 at 10:48am
Originally posted by kim_taek_soo kim_taek_soo wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by kim_taek_soo kim_taek_soo wrote:

In my opinion, the short answer to your question is vertical. Flat hitting and hitting through spin are best done with pips that are less sensitive to spin, so you probably want a vertical pip that emphasizes speed, not spin. 

In general, horizontal pips play more like inverted, for example, with pips like Raystorm, 802-40, and VO>102, you can let the ball drop and still hit a loop. Many horizontal pips can still do all the things you mentioned (flat hitting, hitting through spin, aggressive blocks, and controlled placement), but they are more sensitive to spin.

If you want to try something with good control and plenty of speed (spin is average), I recommend Sonic AR in 2.0 thickness. A cheaper option would be 802 (not 802-40) in 2.0 thickness.

Raystorm are vertical oriented.

Good catch! I used Raystorm on my FH for 5+ years and I never even noticed. I always lumped them together with horizontal pips because they were (for many years) the spinniest SP made by Butterfly. Now this makes me wonder how much horizontal/vertical really matters...

I have used hexer pips vertical and horizontal and I feel some diffrence.
I checked last time that he zhiwn is using a new pip called  802SP
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andzejgolot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2021 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:


I have used hexer pips vertical and horizontal and I feel some diffrence.
I checked last time that he zhiwn is using a new pip called  802SP
 do you have link for 802SP?? 
I have hexer pips, vertical or horizontal will be better? I prefer Horizontal btw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2021 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by andzejgolot andzejgolot wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:


I have used hexer pips vertical and horizontal and I feel some diffrence.
I checked last time that he zhiwn is using a new pip called  802SP
 do you have link for 802SP?? 
I have hexer pips, vertical or horizontal will be better? I prefer Horizontal btw

Dont know where you can get it but when hzw played lebrun hzw had 802SP in his raquet.
 I think vertical is better on hexerpips but the current versions are more boosted and faster than 4 years ago.

Hope zeio can translate this many will like the info


Edited by mykonos96 - 12/25/2021 at 3:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TwiddleDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2021 at 11:35am
During my short pips playing years, forehand only, I tried many, and found 802-1 the best for hitting through spin, control and speed, on a Clipper clone. Don't know where to buy it nowadays.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote andzejgolot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2021 at 6:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote p3v56yahoocom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2022 at 7:12pm
Personally, I'm not used to vertically aligned pips.  I feel that the pips aren't fully grabbing the ball in top spinning.  I have no such issues in top spinning with horizontally aligned pips.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2022 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by ThePongProfessor ThePongProfessor wrote:

http://blog.tabletennis11.com/short-pips-advantages-and-disadvantages

I disagree quite strongly with this guide. 

Pushing short and counterlooping/mid distance actually is a strength of razka PO.

Your counterloop can be spinny, can be dead, can have turn but no spin, can cancel either top or sidespin but leave the other, or you can just counter. But the fact its halfway between old shortpips and inverted, means the reduction of spin sensitivity gives you so much control.

Pushing low and short or long is probably the biggest advantage. See how falck loves receiving, all that's required is decent bat angles/timing, vs inverted requiring much more.

No adjustment was required for receiving, simply the results are significantly better for any instance of timing/technique, the ball will have more quality. An issue is most players don't have decent technique for receiving in general, and since pips gets the ball on, many aren't forced to improve.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote p3v56yahoocom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2022 at 8:38pm
I think Professor Hrdlicka's article is well-written.  Please allow me to respectfully give me two cents.  

Advantages:

  • Low sensitivity towards incoming spin: This is generally true.  The exception is when your opponent does a heavy control loop, you don't want to smash it hard with your short pips as it is very difficult to consistently hit it back hard.  It is very sensitive towards incoming spin.  Refer to some old games where Wang Tao did heavy control loop to Liu Guoliang's forehand.  Liu gently guided the ball back.  Wang did it again.  Liu had no choice but to play safe.  Refer to some newer games of Wang Zengyi and Ito Mima.  Both Wang and Ito play safe as a transition shot.  When the top spin of the next shot becomes weaker, they smash it hard.
  • Multiple strategies to confuse the opponent: True!  I would like to add top spinning to the mix.  Jiang Jialiang taught that top spinning with short pips can be done two ways: 1. by spinning; 2. by hitting.  The motion is very similar.  The amount of spin is different.  The bounce is different.  If you are skilled in both, you give your opponent a hard time adjusting.
  • Reduces the weight of paddles: True! 
  • Shorter strokes and faster reset: True!      
  • Simplifies game style: True! 

Disadvantages

  • Topspin and mid distance playTrue!  The only exception that I know of is Toshio Tasaki.  He often smashes from mid distance with high consistency and speed.
  • Timing is critical: True!  The short pips game looks easy, but it is indeed hard.  Timing is crucial.
  • Short game: Due to less sensitivity to incoming spin, I find it easier to keep the ball short and low with short pips than inverted.
I can think of another disadvantage.  Humidity.  Playing in a humid room is more challenging as the pips do not grab the ball as well.  It tends to slide off on spiny shots.  Consistency comes down greatly as a result.

Overall, short pips are so much fun to play with.  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TwiddleDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2022 at 12:50pm
One other advantage of playing with short pips is it is easier for older players to stay in the game longer. If they could never loop or can no longer do so, a switch to short pips simplifies the game for them. All they need to focus on is pushing, blocking and hitting a high or loose ball. I have seen some older short pips players learn how to hit underspin balls using an open racket stroke, similar to what hardbat players do. I realize that as I age, I will be able to stay competitive with short pips or hardbat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2022 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by TwiddleDee TwiddleDee wrote:

One other advantage of playing with short pips is it is easier for older players to stay in the game longer. If they could never loop or can no longer do so, a switch to short pips simplifies the game for them. All they need to focus on is pushing, blocking and hitting a high or loose ball. I have seen some older short pips players learn how to hit underspin balls using an open racket stroke, similar to what hardbat players do. I realize that as I age, I will be able to stay competitive with short pips or hardbat.

Razka PO in max will let you loop backspin balls even easier than with MX-P. Counterlooping et al is also all easier. Traditional SP are great, but people really need to try the new age Moristo's / Razka's.

I spent 8 months out injured, and in my first session back with a human [got 2 months of physio aka TT robot practice], got to play with a much better player [#8 in NZ]. 

I was winning the majority of loop to loop points, despite being relatively new to SP [I got them a week before I got injured] and not being good in loop to loop generally when I had MX-P.

 You have lower spin sensitivity, and don't even need to bend or whatever nearly as much. Depending how you hit it, it can be a dead loop, light or heavy topspin, a ball that turns but is otherwise dead, or with sidespin.

Obviously it takes some training [the robot helped my  technique immensely, knowing how and when to contact the ball, making your action uniform], but again, looping backspin / counterloop is a cinch. I welcome much stronger players giving me those points, as around the net, dead short loops, loops to the BH side are all really easy to control, as you just get impacted by less spin. So having decent technique gives you way more control than decent technique with inverted.

I feel people who start with SP's, may not even reach decent technique with it / experiment with the newer pips. If you haven't faced high quality spin, with rubbers that can feel most/all of that spin, you will never be incentivized to improve your technique / ability to deal with high quality spin. An anti-player just shoves their bat their, a player with dead rubber doesn't have great bat angles. A player with ESN/high quality rubber, knows bat angle, pressure/squeeze level, bending their knees, how to absorb the impact and knows to gauge the spin.

If you can do all that with pips, instead of knowing approximately where the ball will go, you know almost exactly where it will.


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