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random TT diary of sorts |
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dingyibvs ![]() Gold Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 05/09/2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 1375 |
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I've come to a similar conclusion after studying the stroke a bit more closely, with one important difference. At the point of contact the stroke is essentially the same. The difference is simply the backswing. For the "concave" shot my backswing has the blade tip pointing down a bit, so the FH side faces me, and my wrist has a supination and extension. This closes the racket angle at the point of impact, brushing over the ball.
The "convex" shot, OTOH, has the backswing with the FH side facing up, and during the stroke there's pronation and extension. Calling it "concave" and "convex" is really a misnomer, because when driving the ball the primary action of the wrist is extension, with pronation as a secondary action. The pronation part is the big difference between our understanding of the shot. If you look at it that way, then the reason the "concave" shot doesn't work well here is then obvious--you need to change from a supination, sometimes a strong one, to a pronation. This is also why the "convex" shot doesn't work well against top spins, because you're tryin to do the exact opposite. Here's a video of me attempting loop drives with both forms. Excuse the poor consistency right now as I just started practicing this. I start off by doing the "convex" shot, then around the 28 second mark flip to the "concave" shot. You can tell which shot has good contact based on the sound, and as you can see, basically the only time I land a shot with the "concave" shot is when I brush the ball more, which makes it more of a loop than a drive. I can land the "concave" shot with pretty good consistency now, even in match play, so I was really hoping I could co-opt it into the loop drive, but that doesn't appear to be possible. Edited by dingyibvs - 03/08/2023 at 1:56am |
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Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL
FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5378 |
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I see what you mean now. I guess what I'm trying to show is that the way I'm achieving the "convex" backswing is entirely with my body action - not the wrist or arm. I too have my bat pointing up during the backswing - not down. I too found that the method with the bat pointing down during the backswing is weaker - my hypothesis is because the wrist is dropped too much and is in a weak position to transfer force. But because I haven't really activated pronation/supination etc during the "convex" backswing - I can freely supinate once I make hard solid contact with the ball with my backswing. It's not like I went from supination to pronation or whatever, I just have one "wrist" action which is thumb driven supination (in actual fact that comes from the forearm but whatever). So basically I have a "convex" looking backswing (initiated solely by the body) and when I contact the ball i still wrap over the ball with supination, thus I would "classify" my stroke as a "concave" stroke fundamentally - because the ball doesn't feel what happened during the backswing. It's my experience that if you don't supinate and use other wrist mechanisms (for eg extension/flexion), you can still get a strong shot in if you use the body well but the degree of topspin will be less. If you use pronation it's gonna be worse because you're opening the bat angle and lifting the ball - it's easier to lift backspin this way but it'll become very hard to produce real hard dipping topspin like for eg Wang Manyu or Miwa Harimoto style. From a body use perspective - I feel like you are doing the hip bending + squatting action but not really the hip rotation (achieved by bringing the right knee forward which rotates the left hip backwards relative to the right during the backswing). The other mechanism that you can add is the pulling of the elbow with the lats (rotating the right elbow clockwise and the left elbow anticlockwise, like ripping apart a piece of paper). Using this means that your hand can move even less than what it's doing now and you can have an even more compact and powerful stroke.
Edited by blahness - 03/08/2023 at 2:46am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5378 |
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Didn't do a lot of training except goofing around with the stupid sideunderspin loop... but had some long technique discussions with a very good coach. He showed me how to use body rotation on the BH push which is a bit eye opening....it will be very interesting to implement in my game.
The other discussion we had was how to change direction with the BH. I realised I've always kinda tried to go down the line by slightly delaying the contact point which works really well if the opponent hits a very strong shot, but against slower balls it's better to go about it purposefully with the body going forward. Edited by blahness - 03/09/2023 at 8:23pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5378 |
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Played a lot of matches today.
My game against BH pendulum servers is usually quite a bit weaker than my game against FH pendulum servers so I asked one of my partners to serve much more BH during the games - he actually came quite close in a few games and I was struggling. The issue is that even if I manage to loop the fast long BH serve it's like a 50-50 rally situation unless I can loop down the line - but that's really hard to do against wildly varying serves. And the BH serve to the FH short corner is not so easy to attack either. I actually experimented with the Truls Moregardh style of BH sidespin chopblock against these long BH serves and surprisingly it worked wonders because it didn't require much preparation and poses a few questions for the server because instead of a loop where he's ready to counter - it's a junk ball with weird sidespin on it with accompanying topspin or underspin - it's very hard to attack, and if he pushes it it's just gonna be a simple underspin which I can just loop very spinny off and he's gonna be in trouble. I could use this receive against FH pendulum serves too if I'm lazy to use my BH loop. Against the FH short balls I have to rely on a lot of variations to win the point - it's not as simple as just chiquita on the BH short balls to win. Everything from short pushes, fast long hook pushes and fade pushes, to FH flicks with varying placement/spin. |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5378 |
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Not TT related but I finally worked up to a 50kg Bulgarian split squat and am closing in on a standing ab wheel. It's surprising because I haven't worked out in a week plus and I've had some gains which I thought was weird...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5378 |
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Played with an old friend who hasn't played a lot recently. I was expecting it to be easy because I've improved leaps and bounds but boy was I wrong!
Already from the warmup he wasn't missing loops at all when we were training loop vs block, I should have suspected something.... When it came to the matches it was bizarre, he was attacking and chiquitaing my spinniest hook serves with confidence and I had no idea what he was serving and quickly found myself 10-4 down. Miraculously I made 8 points straight to close it out 10-12, it was partly luck and partly me not giving up. With him it was more of a cat and mouse game like playing against myself because he loops hard on both wings and also has good serves. His hook and reverse pendulum serves are really hard to receive now - the difference between sidetop and sideunder is so subtle that I was guessing a lot - the fake movements are just so good. Somehow his pushing has improved a lot too, there's no easy mistakes to get points from. He was also positioning himself very well in general and there wasn't any gaping holes I could exploit in general. In the end I still won most games thanks to my better serve/receive game but many of them were very close and I had to dig deep. In the end what worked well was the sidespin chopblock receive on the BH (which he hated) to deal with long balls and FH looping anything drifting long, and then I can focus my attention on the FH short ball receive. Many, many brilliant points - I made 2 around the net BH loops and 2 very strong FH counterloops lol, he made a few chopblocks, a few ridiculous short blocks which left me hanging out to dry, and a ton of FH powerloops to my middle (damn those are hard af to block) and wide angles. His BH down the line loop was also landing surprisingly high percentages yikes. |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5378 |
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Few things to add from the prev session that I wanted to keep note for personal improvement.
I finally discovered how to block loops to my middle - the windshield wiper FH stroke is the key here - with it I can finally do FH counters even when the ball is at my left chest area. No BH-FH transition needed lol. The other thing to remind myself of is that no spin serves are really good, I should use them a lot more often! The other golden stroke is the BH sidespin chopblock serve receive, to use anticlockwise body rotation to power it (which is my main improvement to it which allowed me to use it against everything). I want to incorporate clockwise body rotation to power the strawberry, tried it for a few shots but the error rate was a little high still, will want to train that a bit more as it's quite the disgusting shot on itself similar to the sidespin chopblock. On other techniques, I think on my BH I need to learn to straighten the arm a bit to get more power when needed, and to also use the left hip to pull everything back to ready position after hitting - same with the FH stroke
Edited by blahness - 03/18/2023 at 1:07am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5378 |
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Did a shit ton of continuous looping/countering practice against a blocker who randomly adds and takes away momentum from the ball, and does all sorts of dead blocks, sidespin, sideunderspin, topspin blocks and everything in between. Was really good practice for consistency and finding the ball well.
Also played games against quite a good tall lefty shakehand two winged looper who had very good serves, pushes and powerful af loops. He seemed to be quite well trained. Unfortunately for him I was in the form of my life and he only managed to get 1 set out of 10+ sets. I was just attacking all his half long serves with a lot of spin and also in general received his serves quite well, while he got bamboozled by my serves quite a bit gifting me many attacking opportunities. Even did a few FH counterloops which I was quite proud of lol. One thing I did differently today was wearing compression Tshirt. It worked incredibly well because it helped to stabilise my core without my abs having to do too much work - this really increased my speed of movement I reckon. Will look to buy a few more.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5378 |
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Did few hundred balls of loop vs chop training... I haven't practiced this in a few months and was pleasantly surprised how much I improved. I was recovering well and continuously looping many, many balls (5+) against the chopper and often overcoming his defences. Still it was tiring af...
The more fun part was training serve receive against BH serves. So my partner for the day, just kept serving BH to me random spin and random placements (long, short, etc...). I focused on using the body to power all the receives. On the FH I was doing the FH equivalent of the strawberry stroke, and it's actually quite disgusting how much spin variations can be done with it. The other cool thing I tried was the windshield wiper variant of flick - you could use this to flick both topspin as well as sideunderspin. The others were the tomahawk push and the sideways short push. On the BH I was trying to refine the BH strawberry receive to add to my existing chopblock receive and of course the chiquita. I figured out an easy way to loop BH serves reliably just with the fingers - this provided a much more stable base to add power from the body. And it became much easier to loop BH pendulum long serves. After that I played a few games which I used all these new variations. My partner was so used to them and was flat hitting all my loops like Mima Ito lol... It was the most disorienting thing ever. I think the serve/receive practice benefited him more than me ugh. But these skills are very useful in other matchups. I really hated the fade BH punch block to my FH - that shot is the nastiest crap I've seen - he kills most of the spin on the ball and it becomes a sideunderspin curving away from me - this forces me to FH loop it upwards and then he just blocks it back to my BH and I'm in big trouble. Basically I couldn't decipher this pattern if he manages to make all these shots against my opening loops. All in all it was a very productive and fun session after a very busy week at work!
Edited by blahness - 03/24/2023 at 8:35am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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cole_ely ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6791 |
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Maybe your body was needed a couple of extra days to fully recover?
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5378 |
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Yeah I think so too...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5378 |
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Wasn't in my best condition physically, so I was doing mostly tweaking the BH strawberry - it's easier with the elbow pull with the lats muscles. It ties in incredibly well with the hook serve. So the idea is hook serve to the wide BH, they receive to BH or middle, then I do this strawberry suddenly giving them a nasty sidespin to their wide FH. It even works against long serves to just give them a nasty sidespin ball which can even be short ish.
Now I guess I need to kinda integrate all the different over the table strokes including chiquita, chopblock, strawberry, fake/real loops. For FH I have the tomahawk push, hook receive, fade, windshield wiper flick and of course my trusty FH loop. I guess that's probably more than necessary and I can focus more on solidifying them now.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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